House of Commons shooting?

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NerveAgent

3,293 posts

219 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
I think one of the problems the police face is the media reporting the phrase "known to the police". It could mean a number of things, but people tend to assume it means "known the the police as a potential terrorist, why weren't they following him" when in reality its probably more likely to mean "got done for gbh 10 years ago".

Digga

40,207 posts

282 months

Friday 24th March 2017
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croyde said:
Only one thing is worse than a Jihadi, it's a convert to Islamic Jihadism.

The was no more than a violent petty thief.

Why on Earth wasn't he locked up due to his previous violent crimes with a knife.
I have to say, this is a recurrent issue in this country. Violent criminals re-offending in ever more violent acts because they're barely locked up in the first place.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
Digga said:
croyde said:
Only one thing is worse than a Jihadi, it's a convert to Islamic Jihadism.

The was no more than a violent petty thief.

Why on Earth wasn't he locked up due to his previous violent crimes with a knife.
I have to say, this is a recurrent issue in this country. Violent criminals re-offending in ever more violent acts because they're barely locked up in the first place.
IIRC he was locked up.

The question was how much money do we want to spend on prisons?

They're nearly always full and the largest category in prisons is people who've been violent.

Dindoit

1,645 posts

93 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
Digga said:
croyde said:
Why on Earth wasn't he locked up due to his previous violent crimes with a knife.
I have to say, this is a recurrent issue in this country. Violent criminals re-offending in ever more violent acts because they're barely locked up in the first place.
He was locked up due to his previous violent crimes with a knife.

In a parallel thread people are complaining he was radicalised in prison.

Digga

40,207 posts

282 months

Friday 24th March 2017
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La Liga said:
IRC he was locked up.

The question was how much money do we want to spend on prisons?

They're nearly always full and the largest category in prisons is people who've been violent.
It's a good point, but I think society's ideas about the provision of places in prison - i.e. the number of cells - is a little deluded. We now have better investigation and detection techniques than every, are capable of solving and convicting crimes that previously went unsolved. Why would we not need more spaces?

Dindoit said:
He was locked up due to his previous violent crimes with a knife.

In a parallel thread people are complaining he was radicalised in prison.
Firstly, he can be as radical as he likes inside, but while there he'd do no one any harm.

Secondly, if radicalisation within the prison system is a significant issue, it must be tackled, not left to fester.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 24th March 2017
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Digga said:
It's a good point, but I think society's ideas about the provision of places in prison - i.e. the number of cells - is a little deluded. We now have better investigation and detection techniques than every, are capable of solving and convicting crimes that previously went unsolved. Why would we not need more spaces?
Keeping people in longer and convicting more people = more people in prison.



Digga

40,207 posts

282 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
La Liga said:
Digga said:
It's a good point, but I think society's ideas about the provision of places in prison - i.e. the number of cells - is a little deluded. We now have better investigation and detection techniques than every, are capable of solving and convicting crimes that previously went unsolved. Why would we not need more spaces?
Keeping people in longer and convicting more people = more people in prison.
I agree, it does and logic dictates there needs to be more places if we're getting better at detecting and solving crime, plus the population is growing. Not really a big stretch there, to get to that fact, is it?

I think most of the public would support it. It's not like the Ministry of Justice budget is that big anyway.

WestyCarl

3,217 posts

124 months

Friday 24th March 2017
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The problem in combating terrorist is that it's an idea, not a country or an army and you can't lock people up for idea's.

Young Ali Ackbar can hate the UK as much as he like's, even learning about our deviant ways while in other countries allowing this idea to ferment in his mind, but until he actually does something about out, i.e. either preach or carry out an atrocity, he can't be locked up.

I don't know what the answer is, but the paradox of interment / Guantanamo bay style prevention is that this just perpetuates the hate among the millions of free Muslims which will eventually lead to some of them down the path of action.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
Digga said:
La Liga said:
Digga said:
It's a good point, but I think society's ideas about the provision of places in prison - i.e. the number of cells - is a little deluded. We now have better investigation and detection techniques than every, are capable of solving and convicting crimes that previously went unsolved. Why would we not need more spaces?
Keeping people in longer and convicting more people = more people in prison.
I agree, it does and logic dictates there needs to be more places if we're getting better at detecting and solving crime, plus the population is growing. Not really a big stretch there, to get to that fact, is it?

I think most of the public would support it. It's not like the Ministry of Justice budget is that big anyway.
Ok, we're on the same page now. I think I misinterpreted your first post a little.

Yes, we could go for the 'US model' if there was public support / political will.



Digga

40,207 posts

282 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
WestyCarl said:
The problem in combating terrorist is that it's an idea, not a country or an army and you can't lock people up for idea's.

Young Ali Ackbar can hate the UK as much as he like's, even learning about our deviant ways while in other countries allowing this idea to ferment in his mind, but until he actually does something about out, i.e. either preach or carry out an atrocity, he can't be locked up.

I don't know what the answer is, but the paradox of interment / Guantanamo bay style prevention is that this just perpetuates the hate among the millions of free Muslims which will eventually lead to some of them down the path of action.
We're not talking about a new Gitmo though. It transpires that the POS that carried out the Westminster attack had a string of convictions for violence including two assaults with knives. The opinion someone posted was that perhaps if he was serving a decent amount of time for those, he might still be safely inside.

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 24th March 2017
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Alpinestars said:
Expand please. Set it out as a set of rules. Otherwise you keep going round in circles, but maybe that's your objective. Lots of people are known to the police.
There are already rules.

Murph7355 said:
I've not read every last post, but even so that sounds like ducking the question you know is being asked smile

How would you draw a line between good/bad that captures everyone (known/previously known/unknown)?

And how many people do you think it's possible to track to the level of detail needed to prevent these sort of attacks. Bearing in mind Minority Report wasn't a documentary smile

For now let's pretend laws precluding anything don't exist to make it easier.
This is for the security services to manage.

eharding said:
bmw535i said:
Alpinestars said:
Just out of interest, who is going to decide if someone is or isn't involved in terrorism. Is there a bright white line people are not allowed to cross, because life usually that simple.
The security services.
...and previously, just as a reminder...

bmw535i said:
Yes I do have a complete lack of respect for police officers, or as you say, a "bee in my bonnet".
So, in his rather confused little world, bmw535i would hand over arbitrary powers of internment to folk he has expressed a complete lack of respect for. Truly bizarre.

Given his performance here, I'd suspect bmw535i doesn't like having it pointed out to him when he's making a tit of himself - and that Plod have probably had cause to do that in the past - but doesn't know when to stop digging.
I don't mind answering questions.



jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
Digga said:
La Liga said:
IRC he was locked up.

The question was how much money do we want to spend on prisons?

They're nearly always full and the largest category in prisons is people who've been violent.
It's a good point, but I think society's ideas about the provision of places in prison - i.e. the number of cells - is a little deluded. We now have better investigation and detection techniques than every, are capable of solving and convicting crimes that previously went unsolved. Why would we not need more spaces?
Eh, because we can detect and solve more crimes.

Digga said:
Dindoit said:
He was locked up due to his previous violent crimes with a knife.

In a parallel thread people are complaining he was radicalised in prison.
Firstly, he can be as radical as he likes inside, but while there he'd do no one any harm.

Secondly, if radicalisation within the prison system is a significant issue, it must be tackled, not left to fester.
Pray tell, how? If they don't listen, what are you going to do? Lock them up?

WestyCarl

3,217 posts

124 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
Digga said:
We're not talking about a new Gitmo though. It transpires that the POS that carried out the Westminster attack had a string of convictions for violence including two assaults with knives. The opinion someone posted was that perhaps if he was serving a decent amount of time for those, he might still be safely inside.
So how long is a decent amount of time? Unless it's life he's coming out.
And what about someone caught in possession of a knife but who hasn't used it yet?

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
bmw535i said:
Greg66 said:
bmw535i said:
Im pretty sure I'm not a terrorist.
Terrorists always say that.

bmw535i said:
I don't think saying hello to a terrorist means I'm involved in terrorism.
Terrorists always say that.

bmw535i said:
Europa1 said:
Say you frequented a cafe which MI5 watches because it believes it is a meeting place for extremists, or you unwittingly are mates with an extremist - you might be regarded as being peripherally involved.
I don't think I would be regarded as being involved in terrorism in your scenario
It wouldn't be your call though. And if there is even the slightest doubt, it would be better to haul you in that leave you out there.
You seem to know a lot about terrorists. I'm not one though.
Terrorists always say that.

fido

16,752 posts

254 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
Digga said:
It transpires that the POS that carried out the Westminster attack had a string of convictions for violence including two assaults with knives. The opinion someone posted was that perhaps if he was serving a decent amount of time for those, he might still be safely inside.
But it would be interesting to find out how his journey into extremism started - might have been during his stint in prison? Tackling this problem would be more productive than locking more people up - we already have a problem with capacity. Once the trips to SA, Pakistan etc. start then we might as well throw away the key - good chance it's already too late to prevent them acting out their hatred.

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
jjlynn27 said:
NerveAgent said:
This has got to be trolling. No one is this stupid.
You are wrong. He is.
definitely sub-camel.

Burwood

18,709 posts

245 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
fido said:
Digga said:
It transpires that the POS that carried out the Westminster attack had a string of convictions for violence including two assaults with knives. The opinion someone posted was that perhaps if he was serving a decent amount of time for those, he might still be safely inside.
But it would be interesting to find out how his journey into extremism started - might have been during his stint in prison? Tackling this problem would be more productive than locking more people up - we already have a problem with capacity. Once the trips to SA, Pakistan etc. start then we might as well throw away the key - good chance it's already too late to prevent them acting out their hatred.
Completely different issues. Any violet crime involving a knife-mandatory prison-caught carrying a blade, mandatory prison. Build more prisons. In fact they are.

mcdjl

5,438 posts

194 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
bmw535i said:
Alpinestars said:
Expand please. Set it out as a set of rules. Otherwise you keep going round in circles, but maybe that's your objective. Lots of people are known to the police.
There are already rules.
None of which allow for locking up people indefinitely while they're investigated for terrorism.

mcdjl

5,438 posts

194 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
bmw535i said:
I know. Hello means hello - got to be pretty thick to say it means something in code
Thats what makes it such a great code. Its completely normal language. If you started talking in some funny language (klingon?) you'd stand out, hiding in plain sight is the best way of doing it.

Digga

40,207 posts

282 months

Friday 24th March 2017
quotequote all
Did you enjoy a nice liquid lunch today, or have you retired to the boozer early?
jjlynn27 said:
Digga said:
La Liga said:
IRC he was locked up.

The question was how much money do we want to spend on prisons?

They're nearly always full and the largest category in prisons is people who've been violent.
It's a good point, but I think society's ideas about the provision of places in prison - i.e. the number of cells - is a little deluded. We now have better investigation and detection techniques than every, are capable of solving and convicting crimes that previously went unsolved. Why would we not need more spaces?
Eh, because we can detect and solve more crimes.
Pray tell, how? If they don't listen, what are you going to do? Lock them up?
You ain't too quick on the uptake this afternoon chap.

If:
  1. the population is growing
  2. we are better at detecting crime
  3. we are better at solving and prosecuting crime
then, we will have a proportionately higher prison population.

What's hard to grasp there? Really?

jjlynn27 said:
Digga said:
Dindoit said:
He was locked up due to his previous violent crimes with a knife.

In a parallel thread people are complaining he was radicalised in prison.
Firstly, he can be as radical as he likes inside, but while there he'd do no one any harm.

Secondly, if radicalisation within the prison system is a significant issue, it must be tackled, not left to fester.
Pray tell, how? If they don't listen, what are you going to do? Lock them up?
We're talking about radicalisation within prisons; they're already locked up!
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