House of Commons shooting?

[anonymous-user]

La Liga said:

he blood on the MP's face whom gave mouth-to-mouth suggests it was neck / head area. Unlikely to be fatal on the legs and unlikely to be anywhere where the armour covers.

The armour is fine for what it's designed to. No knife will get through the kevlar.

It's not possible to eliminate such risks on a generic basis unless police officers go around in some sort of all-encompassing bomb-disposal type attire.

Westminster attack: PC Keith Palmer stabbed to death despite body armour
http://news.sky.com/story/westminster-attack-pc-ke...

[Yipper]

Rumours of a foiled attack on Eurostar in London or Brussels today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4361998/Eu...

[turbobloke]

La Liga said:

Unlikely to be fatal on the legs and unlikely to be anywhere where the armour covers.

Not quite right on the legs, a number of knife attacks have resulted in death from such stab wounds and police officers share the same anatomy as London youths. These are only two from the list of such incidents from 2000 on. One is a well-known case.

...bled to death in a stairwell on the notoriously rundown estate where he lived...he had been stabbed once in the leg, the knife severing his femoral artery...

"...was pushed up against a wall on Camplin Street where he was fatally stabbed five times in the legs. One of the stab wounds severed his femoral artery, causing him to lose massive amounts of blood, the court heard..."

It may be worth a review of where protection is provided if the thigh is vulnerable. Thigh protection is readily available and hardly equal to the cost of a life in terms of police budgets.

[Evanivitch]

turbobloke said:

La Liga said:

Unlikely to be fatal on the legs and unlikely to be anywhere where the armour covers.

Not quite right on the legs, a number of knife attacks have resulted in death from such stab wounds and police officers share the same anatomy as London youths. These are only two from the list of such incidents from 2000 on. One is a well-known case.

...bled to death in a stairwell on the notoriously rundown estate where he lived...he had been stabbed once in the leg, the knife severing his femoral artery...

"...was pushed up against a wall on Camplin Street where he was fatally stabbed five times in the legs. One of the stab wounds severed his femoral artery, causing him to lose massive amounts of blood, the court heard..."

It may be worth a review of where protection is provided if the thigh is vulnerable. Thigh protection is readily available and hardly equal to the cost of a life in terms of police budgets.

Problem is that any armour, but especially leg armour has an impact on mobility to the user. Not just running, but being able to get in and out of vehicles too. It's a difficult trade off.

[Digga]

Yipper said:

Rumours of a foiled attack on Eurostar in London or Brussels today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4361998/Eu...

Some Twit said:

If we'd blown the tunnel when we triggered A50 none of this would have happened.

[Greendubber]

Evanivitch said:

turbobloke said:

La Liga said:

Unlikely to be fatal on the legs and unlikely to be anywhere where the armour covers.

Not quite right on the legs, a number of knife attacks have resulted in death from such stab wounds and police officers share the same anatomy as London youths. These are only two from the list of such incidents from 2000 on. One is a well-known case.

...bled to death in a stairwell on the notoriously rundown estate where he lived...he had been stabbed once in the leg, the knife severing his femoral artery...

"...was pushed up against a wall on Camplin Street where he was fatally stabbed five times in the legs. One of the stab wounds severed his femoral artery, causing him to lose massive amounts of blood, the court heard..."

It may be worth a review of where protection is provided if the thigh is vulnerable. Thigh protection is readily available and hardly equal to the cost of a life in terms of police budgets.

Problem is that any armour, but especially leg armour has an impact on mobility to the user. Not just running, but being able to get in and out of vehicles too. It's a difficult trade off.

Lets not forget the public and media often complain about paramilitary looking police officers so I can imagine leg armour would cause outrage.

[Northern Munkee]

The "Lille loophole" and they bleat were nothing to do with Schengen.

ETA ( http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4361998/Eu... )

[Zod]

Yipper said:

Rumours of a foiled attack on Eurostar in London or Brussels today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4361998/Eu...

I got the Eurostar back from Brussels at 1756 yesterday. There was no such ban in place.

[p1stonhead]

Zod said:

Yipper said:

Rumours of a foiled attack on Eurostar in London or Brussels today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4361998/Eu...

I got the Eurostar back from Brussels at 1756 yesterday. There was no such ban in place.

Its the daily mail what do you expect

[turbobloke]

Greendubber said:

Evanivitch said:

turbobloke said:

La Liga said:

Unlikely to be fatal on the legs and unlikely to be anywhere where the armour covers.

Not quite right on the legs, a number of knife attacks have resulted in death from such stab wounds and police officers share the same anatomy as London youths. These are only two from the list of such incidents from 2000 on. One is a well-known case.

"...bled to death in a stairwell on the notoriously rundown estate where he lived...he had been stabbed once in the leg, the knife severing his femoral artery..."

"...was pushed up against a wall on Camplin Street where he was fatally stabbed five times in the legs. One of the stab wounds severed his femoral artery, causing him to lose massive amounts of blood, the court heard..."

It may be worth a review of where protection is provided if the thigh is vulnerable. Thigh protection is readily available and hardly equal to the cost of a life in terms of police budgets.

Problem is that any armour, but especially leg armour has an impact on mobility to the user. Not just running, but being able to get in and out of vehicles too. It's a difficult trade off.

Lets not forget the public and media often complain about paramilitary looking police officers so I can imagine leg armour would cause outrage.

Surely high-reach (!) thigh protection sleeves or suitable grundies (see below) could be worn underneath whatever trousers are deemed appropriate.

I have no connection with the following example nor can I warrant any aspect of their effectiveness but it looks very much as though they would offer better protection than nothing at all. The claim is for 'excellent cut and slash protection' suitable for police and prison use.

http://www.ppss-group.com/cut-and-slash-resistant-...

A sleeve and grundies combo ought to be sufficient - mobility still OK as no joint is badly hampered and thickness isn't excessive.

[anonymous-user]

I'd speculate the stabbing occurred above the armour chest plate rather than through it, which is why I also wrote 'unlikely to occur anywhere the armour covers'. Having seen the standard plates tested, it'd have to be a large equipment failure to go through it.

turbobloke said:

La Liga said:

Unlikely to be fatal on the legs and unlikely to be anywhere where the armour covers.

Not quite right on the legs, a number of knife attacks have resulted in death from such stab wounds and police officers share the same anatomy as London youths. These are only two from the list of such incidents from 2000 on. One is a well-known case.

...bled to death in a stairwell on the notoriously rundown estate where he lived...he had been stabbed once in the leg, the knife severing his femoral artery...

"...was pushed up against a wall on Camplin Street where he was fatally stabbed five times in the legs. One of the stab wounds severed his femoral artery, causing him to lose massive amounts of blood, the court heard..."

It may be worth a review of where protection is provided if the thigh is vulnerable. Thigh protection is readily available and hardly equal to the cost of a life in terms of police budgets.

I said it was unlikely. I didn't say it was never fatal.

It was also a statement that took into consideration the immediacy of the first aid available. I doubt the examples you cite had people trained to manage immediate knife / gun shot wounds with the relevant equipment.

Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 30th March 14:35

[ben5575]

Yipper said:

Rumours of a foiled attack on Eurostar in London or Brussels today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4361998/Eu...

Good job that article didn't appear on the same day that TM used security as a lever in her letter to the EU...

[turbobloke]

La Liga said:

said it was unlikely. I didn't say it was never fatal.

It was also a statement that took into consideration the immediacy of the first aid available. I doubt the examples you cite had people trained to manage immediate knife / gun shot wounds with the relevant equipment.

I'd speculate the stabbing occurred above the armour chest plate rather than through it, which is why I also wrote 'unlikely to occur anywhere the armour covers'. Having seen the standard plates tested, it'd have to be a large equipment failure to go through it.

I didn't claim you said that!

I appreciate the various points you made, but I still reckon that legs and 'unlikely to be fatal' don't go together as long as there's an unprotected femoral artery available.

It's understood that cumbersome protective devices hamper mobility and if they're bulky as well as exposed then appearance may not be ideal. That said, mobility isn't restricted unduly by what I described and the appearance would be hidden. Beyond that it's not my life on the line so if officers and their representatives are OK with a significant weakness in terms of protection against a likely fatal stab/cut then there's little more to be said except ' best of luck' to those involved in this dangerous work.

[anonymous-user]

No you didn't write the latter, I've changed the quote to be more clear.

turbobloke said:

I appreciate the various points you made, but I still reckon that legs and 'unlikely to be fatal' don't go together as long as there's an unprotected femoral artery available.

I appreciate what you're saying, and I don't want to get in a silly pedantic argument about word use.

Likeliness and unlikeliness are rough expressions of probability. Given most stabbings are non-fatal, I'm probably on to a safe bet with 'unlikely' even without breaking down and speculating about various areas of the body.

Yes, the legs have two specific high-risk areas, but most of the legs present a much lower risk of death and are more likely to be stuck.

[turbobloke]

La Liga said:

No you didn't write the latter, I've changed the quote to be more clear.

turbobloke said:

I appreciate the various points you made, but I still reckon that legs and 'unlikely to be fatal' don't go together as long as there's an unprotected femoral artery available.

I appreciate what you're saying, and I don't want to get in a silly pedantic argument about word use.

Likeliness and unlikeliness are rough expressions of probability. Given most stabbings are non-fatal, I'm probably on to a safe bet with 'unlikely' even without breaking down and speculating about various areas of the body.

Yes, the legs have two specific high-risk areas, but most of the legs present a much lower risk of death and are more likely to be stuck.

Sure, understood.

As previously stated: best of luck to those working in dangerous anti-terrorist roles with no femoral protection.

[BlackLabel]

[Gavia]

BlackLabel said:

Nope, it's a great big conspiracy, a cover up to rival the Kennedy assassination* Obviously if they'd said it was a big terror cell, the I'd believe every word they say.

* I was going to say 9/11, but that was clearly those Muslamics

[turbobloke]

Relesed with no further action - not quite.

The national DNA database by stealth will have been updated. Every little helps, no reason is too serious.

[anonymous-user]

turbobloke said:

Relesed with no further action - not quite.

The national DNA database by stealth will have been updated. Every little helps, no reason is too serious.

How do you know they weren't on it prior to these arrests?

[anonymous-user]

La Liga said:

turbobloke said:

Relesed with no further action - not quite.

The national DNA database by stealth will have been updated. Every little helps, no reason is too serious.

How do you know they weren't on it prior to these arrests?

I've no doubt they were 'known' already