Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[Vanden Saab]

S600BSB said:

Wombat3 said:

If the EU proposal is blanket FOM across that age group I can't see how that works without driving down wages. That age group would always be the most mobile & without any form of restriction its likely to be a completely unbalanced arrangement.

It’s a fabulous idea for young people to be able to travel, study or work across the EU - you never worked a ski season in the Alps Womble? Should be embraced.

Is it good for the 15% of EU youth who cannot get a job because someone from another country is doing the work they used to do?

[cheesejunkie]

Vanden Saab said:

S600BSB said:

Wombat3 said:

If the EU proposal is blanket FOM across that age group I can't see how that works without driving down wages. That age group would always be the most mobile & without any form of restriction its likely to be a completely unbalanced arrangement.

It’s a fabulous idea for young people to be able to travel, study or work across the EU - you never worked a ski season in the Alps Womble? Should be embraced.

Is it good for the 15% of EU youth who cannot get a job because someone from another country is doing the work they used to do?

There's no perfect policy but that's a twisted way of looking at it. The UK needs workers. The EU broached an option that was shot down.

It was an EU power play. I can understand why the UK would not accept it on EU terms but the reality is there's going to be a deal at some point and it's debatable whether the UK will manage to get into a stronger position to play a harder game. Maybe we will. Maybe we won't. It's going to happen as we need the workers.

Fair enough it might affect tiler charge out rates but lowering them might be beneficial to the average UK consumer, I'm considering re-doing a bathroom. I'm joking .

You can skin it any way you want but the thing you'll end up with is UK needs workers, EU needs workers, for UK<->EU the EU currently has the upper hand thanks to the UK government's inability to critically analyse in case that implies criticising brexit.

I'm no expert on this stuff but even I can see that. Admit to yourself where you went wrong or be doomed to repeat the same mistake. Until the UK gov are prepared to admit brexit isn't perfect (latest inability to enforce brexit at the border being a perfect example) isn't working reality will continue to be a thorn in the side of those saying it's great.

[Vanden Saab]

cheesejunkie said:

Vanden Saab said:

S600BSB said:

Wombat3 said:

If the EU proposal is blanket FOM across that age group I can't see how that works without driving down wages. That age group would always be the most mobile & without any form of restriction its likely to be a completely unbalanced arrangement.

It’s a fabulous idea for young people to be able to travel, study or work across the EU - you never worked a ski season in the Alps Womble? Should be embraced.

Is it good for the 15% of EU youth who cannot get a job because someone from another country is doing the work they used to do?

There's no perfect policy but that's a twisted way of looking at it. The UK needs workers. The EU broached an option that was shot down.

It was an EU power play. I can understand why the UK would not accept it on EU terms but the reality is there's going to be a deal at some point and it's debatable whether the UK will manage to get into a stronger position to play a harder game. Maybe we will. Maybe we won't. It's going to happen as we need the workers.

Fair enough it might affect tiler charge out rates but lowering them might be beneficial to the average UK consumer, I'm considering re-doing a bathroom. I'm joking .

You can skin it any way you want but the thing you'll end up with is UK needs workers, EU needs workers, for UK<->EU the EU currently has the upper hand thanks to the UK government's inability to critically analyse in case that implies criticising brexit.

I'm no expert on this stuff but even I can see that. Admit to yourself where you went wrong or be doomed to repeat the same mistake. Until the UK gov are prepared to admit brexit isn't perfect (latest inability to enforce brexit at the border being a perfect example) isn't working reality will continue to be a thorn in the side of those saying it's great.

13% of UK youth are unemployed and 15% of eu youth are unemployed and your answer is to send UK workers to the eu and eu workers to the UK because both need more workers. Interesting concept.

[S600BSB]

cheesejunkie said:

Vanden Saab said:

S600BSB said:

Wombat3 said:

If the EU proposal is blanket FOM across that age group I can't see how that works without driving down wages. That age group would always be the most mobile & without any form of restriction its likely to be a completely unbalanced arrangement.

It’s a fabulous idea for young people to be able to travel, study or work across the EU - you never worked a ski season in the Alps Womble? Should be embraced.

Is it good for the 15% of EU youth who cannot get a job because someone from another country is doing the work they used to do?

There's no perfect policy but that's a twisted way of looking at it. The UK needs workers. The EU broached an option that was shot down.

It was an EU power play. I can understand why the UK would not accept it on EU terms but the reality is there's going to be a deal at some point and it's debatable whether the UK will manage to get into a stronger position to play a harder game. Maybe we will. Maybe we won't. It's going to happen as we need the workers.

Fair enough it might affect tiler charge out rates but lowering them might be beneficial to the average UK consumer, I'm considering re-doing a bathroom. I'm joking .

You can skin it any way you want but the thing you'll end up with is UK needs workers, EU needs workers, for UK<->EU the EU currently has the upper hand thanks to the UK government's inability to critically analyse in case that implies criticising brexit.

I'm no expert on this stuff but even I can see that. Admit to yourself where you went wrong or be doomed to repeat the same mistake. Until the UK gov are prepared to admit brexit isn't perfect (latest inability to enforce brexit at the border being a perfect example) isn't working reality will continue to be a thorn in the side of those saying it's great.

Spot on.

[Wombat3]

Vanden Saab said:

cheesejunkie said:

Vanden Saab said:

S600BSB said:

Wombat3 said:

If the EU proposal is blanket FOM across that age group I can't see how that works without driving down wages. That age group would always be the most mobile & without any form of restriction its likely to be a completely unbalanced arrangement.

It’s a fabulous idea for young people to be able to travel, study or work across the EU - you never worked a ski season in the Alps Womble? Should be embraced.

Is it good for the 15% of EU youth who cannot get a job because someone from another country is doing the work they used to do?

There's no perfect policy but that's a twisted way of looking at it. The UK needs workers. The EU broached an option that was shot down.

It was an EU power play. I can understand why the UK would not accept it on EU terms but the reality is there's going to be a deal at some point and it's debatable whether the UK will manage to get into a stronger position to play a harder game. Maybe we will. Maybe we won't. It's going to happen as we need the workers.

Fair enough it might affect tiler charge out rates but lowering them might be beneficial to the average UK consumer, I'm considering re-doing a bathroom. I'm joking .

You can skin it any way you want but the thing you'll end up with is UK needs workers, EU needs workers, for UK<->EU the EU currently has the upper hand thanks to the UK government's inability to critically analyse in case that implies criticising brexit.

I'm no expert on this stuff but even I can see that. Admit to yourself where you went wrong or be doomed to repeat the same mistake. Until the UK gov are prepared to admit brexit isn't perfect (latest inability to enforce brexit at the border being a perfect example) isn't working reality will continue to be a thorn in the side of those saying it's great.

13% of UK youth are unemployed and 15% of eu youth are unemployed and your answer is to send UK workers to the eu and eu workers to the UK because both need more workers. Interesting concept.

The issue with it is clearly the imbalance, people from 27 countries vs 1. A rough population ratio of
8 or 9 to 1.

It'd work on a 1 in 1 out basis or some sort of quota system but given that most if those that took advantage of FOM would likely have been in that age bracket the proposal as it stands would just re-enable it pretty much.

[Deesee]

Vanden Saab said:

S600BSB said:

Wombat3 said:

If the EU proposal is blanket FOM across that age group I can't see how that works without driving down wages. That age group would always be the most mobile & without any form of restriction its likely to be a completely unbalanced arrangement.

It’s a fabulous idea for young people to be able to travel, study or work across the EU - you never worked a ski season in the Alps Womble? Should be embraced.

Is it good for the 15% of EU youth who cannot get a job because someone from another country is doing the work they used to do?

Don’t the young EU citizens have this already? This FOM thing, the issue is the Spanish don’t move to Romania, the Latvians don’t move to Hungary etc..

What possible reason could they have for moving here to study and work I’m sure they have FOM across a whole continent, but yet they prefer to come here.

1980 to 2012 saw the same number of EU to UK FOM as 2012 to 2016…

In jest Tarquin should be able to have his season in the three valleys and Tracey should be a club rep in Ibiza, but read the room unlimited FOM does not work for the UK, you can not import 8/12m people and not expect a negative impact of infrastructure and services, it can’t be a race to the bottom for our youth.

[Murph7355]

Vanden Saab said:

13% of UK youth are unemployed and 15% of eu youth are unemployed and your answer is to send UK workers to the eu and eu workers to the UK because both need more workers. Interesting concept.

To be fair, he did note he was no expert.

Thorough logic fail.

The interesting thing is why the EU are wanting this....

[Killboy]

Deesee said:

In jest Tarquin should be able to have his season in the three valleys and Tracey should be a club rep in Ibiza

There it is.

[nickfrog]

Killboy said:

Deesee said:

In jest Tarquin should be able to have his season in the three valleys and Tracey should be a club rep in Ibiza

There it is.

[cheesejunkie]

Murph7355 said:

Vanden Saab said:

13% of UK youth are unemployed and 15% of eu youth are unemployed and your answer is to send UK workers to the eu and eu workers to the UK because both need more workers. Interesting concept.

To be fair, he did note he was no expert.

Thorough logic fail.

The interesting thing is why the EU are wanting this....

In fairness I could have noted many on here aren't. It's a car forum where people offload their opinions on other subjects. I'm fine with that.

No logic fail at all. Percentages don't really reveal who is among the percentages.

Plenty would like to work in the UK. It's not arrogant to realise that we're a country where people would like to work and that we have employers that need them. It's arrogant to think we can pick and choose at a micromanaged level. It's dumb as nuts to think the government and civil service can manage it better than employers offering jobs. It's beyond stupid to think it's about creating friction for Tarquin or whoever when they're such a tiny subset when Jose can go to Italy instead of Britain.

It's not arrogant to think the EU are taking advantage of it when making their proposal. If some twit is thinking the EU really need people to leave and work in the UK they're looking through the wrong end of the telescope.

I know, some will argue with British levels of unemployment we don't need foreigners. I'd rather deal with what works and that unemployed percentage won't for various reasons including health.

[Wombat3]

Murph7355 said:

Vanden Saab said:

13% of UK youth are unemployed and 15% of eu youth are unemployed and your answer is to send UK workers to the eu and eu workers to the UK because both need more workers. Interesting concept.

To be fair, he did note he was no expert.

Thorough logic fail.

The interesting thing is why the EU are wanting this....

Nail on head, why do they want this when they have so many higher profile things to worry about? If its not to export some kind of issue, be it exporting their own youth unemployment or providing a backdoor to migrants who miraculously acquire EU citizenship first, what's the purpose?

The EU never do anything that is not fundamentally and primarily in their own interests.

[cheesejunkie]

Wombat3 said:

Murph7355 said:

Vanden Saab said:

13% of UK youth are unemployed and 15% of eu youth are unemployed and your answer is to send UK workers to the eu and eu workers to the UK because both need more workers. Interesting concept.

To be fair, he did note he was no expert.

Thorough logic fail.

The interesting thing is why the EU are wanting this....

Nail on head, why do they want this when they have so many higher profile things to worry about? If its not to export some kind of issue, be it exporting their own youth unemployment or providing a backdoor to migrants who miraculously acquire EU citizenship first, what's the purpose?

The EU never do anything that is not fundamentally and primarily in their own interests.

Unlike the UK who definitely do things that aren't in their own interests.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that open goal.

The EU are not some megabrain plotting against the UK. Fair enough, they offer a proposal that's to their advantage. Get used to it.

[Wombat3]

cheesejunkie said:

Unlike the UK who definitely do things that aren't in their own interests.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that open goal.

The EU are not some megabrain plotting against the UK. Fair enough, they offer a proposal that's to their advantage. Get used to it.

I don't think the last part was ever in doubt. See also latest row about planning regs & UK housebuilding in the news today

[Ashfordian]

cheesejunkie said:

Unlike the UK who definitely do things that aren't in their own interests.

Sorry, I couldn't resist that open goal.

The EU are not some megabrain plotting against the UK. Fair enough, they offer a proposal that's to their advantage. Get used to it.

The EU's meddling in the original request has disadvantaged their own citizens.

Yet said citizens cannot vote the EU out.

It perfectly highlights what is wrong with the EU.

[cheesejunkie]

Ashfordian said:

The EU's meddling in the original request has disadvantaged their own citizens.

Yet said citizens cannot vote the EU out.

It perfectly highlights what is wrong with the EU.

No it highlights what you believe is wrong with the EU. There's a difference.

Tell me. How did the EU meddle and disadvantage their own citizens? If your answer's going to be by not giving the UK everything they want save your breath.

[chrispmartha]

Wombat3 said:

The EU never do anything that is not fundamentally and primarily in their own interests.

Why wouldn’t they?

[Wombat3]

chrispmartha said:

Wombat3 said:

The EU never do anything that is not fundamentally and primarily in their own interests.

Why wouldn’t they?

First principle of deal making: The only deal that endures is a win-win deal.

[Murph7355]

cheesejunkie said:

....

No logic fail at all. Percentages don't really reveal who is among the percentages.

... .

Unless the EU has a surplus of workers we need (it doesn't) and we have a surplus of workers they need (we don't), how does the EUs proposal solve the problems of a lack of workers?

It doesn't.

Which is why the govt are right to knock the proposal on the head.

The problem statement is fine. The solution proposed is typical politician (state agnostic) bullst.

It looks like the EU want preferential access to better quality higher education. You'd think they could solve for that using their might....

Ashfordian said:

...
Yet said citizens cannot vote the EU out.

It perfectly highlights what is wrong with the EU.

To be fair, the UK has proved that it can be voted out.

What is being demonstrated are serious issues with the way Western democracies are being run currently. It feels like the path that has been taken for the last century has peaked and we're seriously out of ideas. Constant growth seemingly has its limits. This is also state agnostic. Every Western state is suffering (albeit to differing degrees).

[cheesejunkie]

Wombat3 said:

First principle of deal making: The only deal that endures is a win-win deal.

Now that is a subject I know something about lol.

It would help if the UK knew what it wanted and wasn't beholden to tomorrow's headline.

I'll refer back to needing to enforce import checks. The UK explicitly asked for that. But now doesn't want to enforce them yet due to the cost and complexity.

They explicitly decided to opt out of Erasmus when the offer was on the table not to, it was peanuts and encouraged educated people to become more attached to the UK. But of course idiots thought it was us paying more than other countries due to the directional flow.

You can't win when you're worried about what the next Daily Mail headline will be.

[chrispmartha]

Wombat3 said:

chrispmartha said:

Wombat3 said:

The EU never do anything that is not fundamentally and primarily in their own interests.

Why wouldn’t they?

First principle of deal making: The only deal that endures is a win-win deal.

Maybe so, just shows how poor the UK’s negotiated Brexit deal was then as it was Lose - Lose.