Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 4
Discussion
isaldiri said:
eharding said:
Russian planned military budget for 2024 is reported to be around $140 billion, up 29% on 2023, so the US $60 billion in aid might strictly be a 'fraction', but a sizeable one.
While the headline number of the ukraine aid bill is $60b, isn't a good chunk of that funding for the US military (operations in the area and weapons stockpiles) so the total amount ukraine is getting out of that is quite a bit less.isaldiri said:
eharding said:
Russian planned military budget for 2024 is reported to be around $140 billion, up 29% on 2023, so the US $60 billion in aid might strictly be a 'fraction', but a sizeable one.
While the headline number of the ukraine aid bill is $60b, isn't a good chunk of that funding for the US military (operations in the area and weapons stockpiles) so the total amount ukraine is getting out of that is quite a bit less.Russia’s campaign is hugely attritional in term of men and equipment so it by default costs more for Russia to fight a war than Ukraine. Add in the support Ukraine is getting from other countries and it is probably not that far away from parity.
The big differentiator between Russia and Ukraine is size of their forces and ability to recruit. That’s a big advantage for Russia.
eharding said:
OutInTheShed said:
The US aid budget is a fraction of the Russia military budget and Russia get their weapons cheaper.
Russian planned military budget for 2024 is reported to be around $140 billion, up 29% on 2023, so the US $60 billion in aid might strictly be a 'fraction', but a sizeable one. Russian will also be paying that for an *entire* defence effort - manpower, R&D, a Navy that mostly cannot operate in the Ukraine theatre, a nuclear force they can't use - if they want there to be a 2025 defence budget - and most of all, overwhelming organisational corruption, incompetence and inertia. Most of that Russian budget will be pissed up the wall, as it has been for years.
king idiot. It's all bullst. The Ukrainians do have a chance, but it's slim as long as 'some' western nations play politics.
Yes US and France, we're looking at you.
eharding said:
This is true, but it's still a sizeable chunk, and I'd expect the direct amount of aid going directly into killing Russians to compare favourably with the effective amount that Russia are able to effectively bring to bear in the Ukraine - as per the rest of the post. Don't forget the Russian $140 billion is a headline figure as well, and apparently predicated on an assumed 22 percent increase in Russian government revenues in 2024 - which is optimistic to say the least.
Elsewhere reported as 360+ billion euro.If we believed all the bulls
t about how inferior Russia is supposed to be, we'd expect them to be retreating to the arse end of Siberia before now.The truth is somewhat different.
The problem with criticising the Yanks is Vietnam. It's ingrained in the US psyche. A lot of people don't want to get involved.
OutInTheShed said:
eharding said:
This is true, but it's still a sizeable chunk, and I'd expect the direct amount of aid going directly into killing Russians to compare favourably with the effective amount that Russia are able to effectively bring to bear in the Ukraine - as per the rest of the post. Don't forget the Russian $140 billion is a headline figure as well, and apparently predicated on an assumed 22 percent increase in Russian government revenues in 2024 - which is optimistic to say the least.
Elsewhere reported as 360+ billion euro.OutInTheShed said:
If we believed all the bullst about how inferior Russia is supposed to be, we'd expect them to be retreating to the arse end of Siberia before now.
The truth is somewhat different.
If you'd actually believed all of the bullst about how inferior Russia is supposed to be, we'd expect them to be retreating to the arse end of Siberia before now.The truth is somewhat different.
t about the apparent effectiveness of the Russian military on the 23rd of February 2022, you'd be giving your head a wobble and wondering why the still haven't prevailed, and have suffered catastrophic losses of men and equipment, and also experienced and armed insurrection attempt?The truth is that the Russian-influenced factions in the GOP have managed to hold up US funding for ammunition to the Ukraine the for the past few months, and Ukraine has suffered as a result - we're seeing that coming to an end, for the time at least, and I expect the Russians to likewise suffer heavily as a result, and the more heavily, the better.
eharding said:
OutInTheShed said:
If we believed all the bullst about how inferior Russia is supposed to be, we'd expect them to be retreating to the arse end of Siberia before now.
The truth is somewhat different.
If you'd actually believed all of the bullst about how inferior Russia is supposed to be, we'd expect them to be retreating to the arse end of Siberia before now.The truth is somewhat different.
t about the apparent effectiveness of the Russian military on the 23rd of February 2022, you'd be giving your head a wobble and wondering why the still haven't prevailed, and have suffered catastrophic losses of men and equipment, and also experienced and armed insurrection attempt?The truth is that the Russian-influenced factions in the GOP have managed to hold up US funding for ammunition to the Ukraine the for the past few months, and Ukraine has suffered as a result - we're seeing that coming to an end, for the time at least, and I expect the Russians to likewise suffer heavily as a result, and the more heavily, the better.
Yet we keep hearing about the gains they made while Ukraine awaited funding yet it only 400sq miles, minus what they lost with the incursion the Ukrainians made into Russia with the Free Russian Army?
What surprises me is that the Russians are sending men to be gunned down so they can pin point Ukrainian postions and there isn't a revolt from them?
Oliver Hardy said:
Considering the size of the Russian military they should be stronger.
Yet we keep hearing about the gains they made while Ukraine awaited funding yet it only 400sq miles, minus what they lost with the incursion the Ukrainians made into Russia with the Free Russian Army?
What surprises me is that the Russians are sending men to be gunned down so they can pin point Ukrainian postions and there isn't a revolt from them?
The only thing that surprises me is that you are the least bit surprised.Yet we keep hearing about the gains they made while Ukraine awaited funding yet it only 400sq miles, minus what they lost with the incursion the Ukrainians made into Russia with the Free Russian Army?
What surprises me is that the Russians are sending men to be gunned down so they can pin point Ukrainian postions and there isn't a revolt from them?
This is Russian military tactics 101. Sadly, the majority of people recruited are poorly educated and with few other prospects. They all believe the state media. They have been educated to believe Russia is the main player. They do not question.
I watched the BBC reporting on the US vote over the weekend on YouTube.
The comments were equally surprising and disapointing.
The vast majority were hugely negative about the outcome (from British and US citizens) and centered on how it was outrageous that the money was being spent given that US is so much in debt and has so many poor people living there.
I do think the west has fked up this message. The numbers reported are nowhere near that in reality, but don't sound as good when politically posturing.
The comments were equally surprising and disapointing.
The vast majority were hugely negative about the outcome (from British and US citizens) and centered on how it was outrageous that the money was being spent given that US is so much in debt and has so many poor people living there.
I do think the west has f
ked up this message. The numbers reported are nowhere near that in reality, but don't sound as good when politically posturing. On the one hand, I am very disappointed with the attitudes within the USA on support for Ukraine.
However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
Digga said:
On the one hand, I am very disappointed with the attitudes within the USA on support for Ukraine.
However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
I agree with all of that. "Why should we send our kids to die in a foreign field?" is a very valid question and it all stems from the lack of clarity around 2 key questions that the west is not very good at answering: "what does success or 'victory' look like?" and "what needs to be in place to allow us to withdraw?"However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
And the first one is very much in play for the US in the Ukrainian conflict, and certainly the answer isn't the same as the one that the Ukranians would give you.
GlenMH said:
Digga said:
On the one hand, I am very disappointed with the attitudes within the USA on support for Ukraine.
However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
I agree with all of that. "Why should we send our kids to die in a foreign field?" is a very valid question and it all stems from the lack of clarity around 2 key questions that the west is not very good at answering: "what does success or 'victory' look like?" and "what needs to be in place to allow us to withdraw?"However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
And the first one is very much in play for the US in the Ukrainian conflict, and certainly the answer isn't the same as the one that the Ukranians would give you.
TGCOTF-dewey said:
GlenMH said:
Digga said:
On the one hand, I am very disappointed with the attitudes within the USA on support for Ukraine.
However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
I agree with all of that. "Why should we send our kids to die in a foreign field?" is a very valid question and it all stems from the lack of clarity around 2 key questions that the west is not very good at answering: "what does success or 'victory' look like?" and "what needs to be in place to allow us to withdraw?"However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
And the first one is very much in play for the US in the Ukrainian conflict, and certainly the answer isn't the same as the one that the Ukranians would give you.
Thanks, in no small part to Holywood, the costs to non-American lives are not going unnoticed too.
Digga said:
I do agree, but it's nonetheless understandable, to a degree, that there's such staunch anti-war feeling. The sort of voters Trump attracts will also be the ones who saw husbands, wives, sons, daughters going into service and know the cost.
The ones Trump refers to as suckers and losers you mean?minimoog said:
Digga said:
I do agree, but it's nonetheless understandable, to a degree, that there's such staunch anti-war feeling. The sort of voters Trump attracts will also be the ones who saw husbands, wives, sons, daughters going into service and know the cost.
The ones Trump refers to as suckers and losers you mean?TGCOTF-dewey said:
GlenMH said:
Digga said:
On the one hand, I am very disappointed with the attitudes within the USA on support for Ukraine.
However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
I agree with all of that. "Why should we send our kids to die in a foreign field?" is a very valid question and it all stems from the lack of clarity around 2 key questions that the west is not very good at answering: "what does success or 'victory' look like?" and "what needs to be in place to allow us to withdraw?"However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
And the first one is very much in play for the US in the Ukrainian conflict, and certainly the answer isn't the same as the one that the Ukranians would give you.
On that point I heard that within hours of the bill passing in the US, trucks full of PAC2 and PAC3 missiles for the Patriot SAM systems rolled across the borders into Ukraine.
Rumblestripe said:
TGCOTF-dewey said:
GlenMH said:
Digga said:
On the one hand, I am very disappointed with the attitudes within the USA on support for Ukraine.
However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
I agree with all of that. "Why should we send our kids to die in a foreign field?" is a very valid question and it all stems from the lack of clarity around 2 key questions that the west is not very good at answering: "what does success or 'victory' look like?" and "what needs to be in place to allow us to withdraw?"However, on the other hand, I can see they are suffering from conflict fatigue. There have very obviously been huge sums and many US lives sacrificed for really not very much actaul return. For many in the services - UK as well as USA - the withdrawal from Afghanistan, after so much blood spilled, was a git punch. Add in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Somalia etc. etc. What did we really gain or achieve in many of these conflicts?
And the first one is very much in play for the US in the Ukrainian conflict, and certainly the answer isn't the same as the one that the Ukranians would give you.
On that point I heard that within hours of the bill passing in the US, trucks full of PAC2 and PAC3 missiles for the Patriot SAM systems rolled across the borders into Ukraine.
Was the bill ever actually ever going to not get passed based on that, certain foregone conclusion feel hearing that snippet.
I was pleased it went through, but would be even more pleased if it didnt have to, would love to wake up one morning and read its been settled, preferably with video proof of Putin meeting a grisly end, he is a such a fanny, will send young men to their deaths in the thousands, yet protects himself so carefully despite projecting how tough he is, utter pussy.
WyrleyD said:
This may have been mentioned before but I would have thought that the NATO countries would welcome the chance to test new weapons systems in a live situation in the field. I suppose they may be and it just isn't made public knowledge.
Why do you think there are so many NATO "observers" in Ukraine?Rumblestripe said:
WyrleyD said:
This may have been mentioned before but I would have thought that the NATO countries would welcome the chance to test new weapons systems in a live situation in the field. I suppose they may be and it just isn't made public knowledge.
Why do you think there are so many NATO "observers" in Ukraine?Not just weapons systems though the knowledge that has been gathered about Russian military protocols and tactics will be incredibly valuable.
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