What's Going On In Nottingham?

[FiF]

oddman said:

For those who are struggling to understand the decisions made in regard to whether he had criminal responsibility for the offences and the rationale for a hospital order, the Judge's sentencing remarks can be found here

To me these remarks are a model of clarity and compassion - well worth reading beyond the headlines to get a greater understanding of the hows and whys of dealing with these difficult cases.

Accept that, though the comment "he was not insane at the time of the index assaults" makes it somewhat difficult.

One has to trust the system that *will never* be released.

[mac96]

oddman said:

For those who are struggling to understand the decisions made in regard to whether he had criminal responsibility for the offences and the rationale for a hospital order, the Judge's sentencing remarks can be found here

To me these remarks are a model of clarity and compassion - well worth reading beyond the headlines to get a greater understanding of the hows and whys of dealing with these difficult cases.

Thanks for posting that, very interesting.

It may be obvious, but I didn't know that a huge downside of a prison sentence would be the prospect of eventual release into the supervision of the Probation Service who would naturally be totally unqualified to asses his mental state and spot signs of deterioration. So meaning that reoffending would be more likely .

[Skyedriver]

Road2Ruin said:

I don't care about the convicted criminal, I care people left behind by this senseless act.

I'm in agreement with you there. Too much time spent pandering to the guilty, not just this case but many many across the land over the years.
As I said earlier we, the general public are being let down by those who are elected or employed to protect and serve us.

[Square Leg]

mac96 said:

oddman said:

For those who are struggling to understand the decisions made in regard to whether he had criminal responsibility for the offences and the rationale for a hospital order, the Judge's sentencing remarks can be found here

To me these remarks are a model of clarity and compassion - well worth reading beyond the headlines to get a greater understanding of the hows and whys of dealing with these difficult cases.

Thanks for posting that, very interesting.

It may be obvious, but I didn't know that a huge downside of a prison sentence would be the prospect of eventual release into the supervision of the Probation Service who would naturally be totally unqualified to asses his mental state and spot signs of deterioration. So meaning that reoffending would be more likely .

From page 17 talking about release ‘if he became well enough’ doesn’t bear thinking about.

What the judge has said in that transcript is very to the point and I get it, but there should be absolutely no chance whatsoever of him being released. Ever.

[FiF]

Sentencing review by Attorney General.

[Unreal]

Square Leg said:

mac96 said:

oddman said:

For those who are struggling to understand the decisions made in regard to whether he had criminal responsibility for the offences and the rationale for a hospital order, the Judge's sentencing remarks can be found here

To me these remarks are a model of clarity and compassion - well worth reading beyond the headlines to get a greater understanding of the hows and whys of dealing with these difficult cases.

Thanks for posting that, very interesting.

It may be obvious, but I didn't know that a huge downside of a prison sentence would be the prospect of eventual release into the supervision of the Probation Service who would naturally be totally unqualified to asses his mental state and spot signs of deterioration. So meaning that reoffending would be more likely .

From page 17 talking about release ‘if he became well enough’ doesn’t bear thinking about.

What the judge has said in that transcript is very to the point and I get it, but there should be absolutely no chance whatsoever of him being released. Ever.

I couldn't agree more. He is mentally ill, I get that. Unfortunately, such were the consequences of his actions that no-one should ever be put at risk again, even if psychiatrists conclude he is cured. This is not someone who broke a few windows while having a psychotic episode. Secure detention for the rest of his life is the only sensible decision.

Echoes in the Don Lock case but killings by mentally ill people living in the community are far from rare:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-36277...

[turbobloke]

FiF said:

Sentencing review by Attorney General.

Quick work FiF.

Follows receipt of a complaint that the sentence was unduly lenient.

[mac96]

Unreal said:

Square Leg said:

mac96 said:

oddman said:

For those who are struggling to understand the decisions made in regard to whether he had criminal responsibility for the offences and the rationale for a hospital order, the Judge's sentencing remarks can be found here

To me these remarks are a model of clarity and compassion - well worth reading beyond the headlines to get a greater understanding of the hows and whys of dealing with these difficult cases.

Thanks for posting that, very interesting.

It may be obvious, but I didn't know that a huge downside of a prison sentence would be the prospect of eventual release into the supervision of the Probation Service who would naturally be totally unqualified to asses his mental state and spot signs of deterioration. So meaning that reoffending would be more likely .

From page 17 talking about release ‘if he became well enough’ doesn’t bear thinking about.

What the judge has said in that transcript is very to the point and I get it, but there should be absolutely no chance whatsoever of him being released. Ever.

I couldn't agree more. He is mentally ill, I get that. Unfortunately, such were the consequences of his actions that no-one should ever be put at risk again, even if psychiatrists conclude he is cured. This is not someone who broke a few windows while having a psychotic episode. Secure detention for the rest of his life is the only sensible decision.

Echoes in the Don Lock case but killings by mentally ill people living in the community are far from rare:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-sussex-36277...

In theory I believe that mentally ill people who commit crimes should be released when they have made a recovery and are safe to release. In practice though with someone like this I don't see how that 'safe' assessment could be arrived at, it is just too uncertain. Even if he was better, who is to say he wouldn't relapse.
On which basis I agree, secure detention for the rest of his life.

[Electro1980]

Skyedriver said:

Road2Ruin said:

I don't care about the convicted criminal, I care people left behind by this senseless act.

I'm in agreement with you there. Too much time spent pandering to the guilty, not just this case but many many across the land over the years.
As I said earlier we, the general public are being let down by those who are elected or employed to protect and serve us.

Pandering to the guilty? Again, this is someone who was, and is, seriously ill. Would you say the same of someone who had a heart attack and crashed in to a group of people?

Despite all the claims mental illness is still treated with such callousness. The fear of being treated like a criminal is one of the reasons people don’t get treatment.

Edited by Electro1980 on Friday 26th January 07:57

[oddman]

turbobloke said:

FiF said:

Sentencing review by Attorney General.

Quick work FiF.

Follows receipt of a complaint that the sentence was unduly lenient.

Seems family weren't kept up to speed by the CPS with the likely plea and how this would play out. If they had been included; had their concerns listened to and gained an understanding of the legal framework, it wouldn't have changed the tragedy nor could it be expected that they accept the decision but it might avoid piling frustration on top of their misery.

This is really unfortunate. The only decision of the court seemingly acceptable to the families (and a few on here) appears to be a Sutcliffe style stitch up where he gets a life sentence but like Sutcliffe he would be immediately tranferred to a secure hospital under an emergency transfer section.

The options available were

Murder - IMO wrong because he's clearly driven by psychosis. Whilst able to 'plan' his crimes, the impulse for the planning was based on hallucinations and delusions and motivated by a desire to keep his family safe. He knew what he was doing was wrong but his delusions overcame this.

Manslaughter - diminished responsibility - in this case he pleaded

Not guilty by reason of insanity.

He must have been examined in relation to fitness to plead. I suspect given that his treating psychiatrist has reported that he's still very psychotic, he was probably marginal in re fitness to plead; his intellect and education maybe helping him. Had he not been fit to plead the outcome would be the unpalatable (but perhaps closest to the truth) verdict 'not guilty by reason of insanity'. The disposal would be the same as his current disposal.

If he gets well - I think the judge was setting out the legal framework for clarity. He will always have a mental disorder of a nature which warrants detention and treatment. He will always be subject to Home Office restriction. If he leaves Secure hospital, this will be following review tribunal with all decisions overseen by the home office and victims able to make representations. He may, if making a good recovery and progess with rehab, make very slow progress to a Regional Secure Unit and then local Secure Unit over a course of decades.

The idea that psychiatrists would risk their livelihood and reputation by coaching him so they can keep him out of prison is risible. Anyone with passing acquaintance with the criminal justice system knows that it's very difficult to get mentally ill suspects, detainees and prisoners transferred for assessment care and treatment at all levels.

He's in the Sutcliffe, Brady club. He'll die in hospital or transfer to a specialist care home when unrecognisably altered.

[Electro1980]

Earthdweller said:

Ffs

He deliberately killed … DELIBERATELY

someone having a heart attack is doing nothing deliberate

Writing in caps doesn’t make it true.

He was in the throws of a psychotic episode. That is not DELIBERATE.

oddman said:

Anyone with passing acquaintance with the criminal justice system knows that it's very difficult to get mentally ill suspects, detainees and prisoners transferred for assessment care and treatment at all levels.

If only that were true. Unfortunately one of our resident police officers has shown even those with some level of knowledge can still be massively ignorant, and that is why so many people with mental illness fear the police and the authorities.

Edited by Electro1980 on Friday 26th January 08:17

[vikingaero]

Electro1980 said:

Skyedriver said:

Road2Ruin said:

I don't care about the convicted criminal, I care people left behind by this senseless act.

I'm in agreement with you there. Too much time spent pandering to the guilty, not just this case but many many across the land over the years.
As I said earlier we, the general public are being let down by those who are elected or employed to protect and serve us.

Pandering to the guilty? Again, this is someone who was, and is, seriously ill. Would you say the same of someone who had a heart attack and crashed in to a group of people?

Despite all the claims mental illness is still treated with such callousness. The fear of being treated like a criminal is one of the reasons people don’t get treatment.

Edited by Electro1980 on Friday 26th January 07:57

There will be countless agencies and psychologists pandering to Calocane in a secure unit. They will treat him professionally and with humanity.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Electro1980 said:

Earthdweller said:

Ffs

He deliberately killed … DELIBERATELY

someone having a heart attack is doing nothing deliberate

Writing in caps doesn’t make it true.

He was in the throws of a psychotic episode. That is not DELIBERATE.

oddman said:

Anyone with passing acquaintance with the criminal justice system knows that it's very difficult to get mentally ill suspects, detainees and prisoners transferred for assessment care and treatment at all levels.

If only that were true. Unfortunately one of our resident police officers has shown even those with some level of knowledge can still be massively ignorant, and that is why so many people with mental illness fear the police and the authorities.

Edited by Electro1980 on Friday 26th January 08:17

If your local police have a ridealong/ride out you should go on it. It will possibly really open your eyes.

[oddman]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Electro1980 said:

Earthdweller said:

Ffs

He deliberately killed … DELIBERATELY

someone having a heart attack is doing nothing deliberate

Writing in caps doesn’t make it true.

He was in the throws of a psychotic episode. That is not DELIBERATE.

oddman said:

Anyone with passing acquaintance with the criminal justice system knows that it's very difficult to get mentally ill suspects, detainees and prisoners transferred for assessment care and treatment at all levels.

If only that were true. Unfortunately one of our resident police officers has shown even those with some level of knowledge can still be massively ignorant, and that is why so many people with mental illness fear the police and the authorities.

Edited by Electro1980 on Friday 26th January 08:17

If your local police have a ridealong/ride out you should go on it. It will possibly really open your eyes.

Agree - Electro is probably looking from the other side of the telescope. Fear of detention is serious a barrier to seeking help. Unfortunately failing to seek help results in worse outcomes and longer periods of incarceration or hospitalisation.

Police face a tsunami of chaotic, troubled, drug addled souls who are nuisances as much criminals but the mental health system doesn't want them in hospital where they cause mayhem and mischief.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

It would be interesting to see how his mental illness developed. Its alleged to have started since 2020.

[XCP]

Anyone know why the 'diminished responsibility' defence applies to murder, but not attempted murder? Seems illogical.

[gt_12345]

Every criminal has a mental illness if you look hard enough.

Should we stop jailing people because they're narcissists?

[Louis Balfour]

oddman said:

Hugo Stiglitz said:

Electro1980 said:

Earthdweller said:

Ffs

He deliberately killed … DELIBERATELY

someone having a heart attack is doing nothing deliberate

Writing in caps doesn’t make it true.

He was in the throws of a psychotic episode. That is not DELIBERATE.

oddman said:

Anyone with passing acquaintance with the criminal justice system knows that it's very difficult to get mentally ill suspects, detainees and prisoners transferred for assessment care and treatment at all levels.

If only that were true. Unfortunately one of our resident police officers has shown even those with some level of knowledge can still be massively ignorant, and that is why so many people with mental illness fear the police and the authorities.

Edited by Electro1980 on Friday 26th January 08:17

If your local police have a ridealong/ride out you should go on it. It will possibly really open your eyes.

Agree - Electro is probably looking from the other side of the telescope. Fear of detention is serious a barrier to seeking help. Unfortunately failing to seek help results in worse outcomes and longer periods of incarceration or hospitalisation.

Police face a tsunami of chaotic, troubled, drug addled souls who are nuisances as much criminals but the mental health system doesn't want them in hospital where they cause mayhem and mischief.

I seem to recall that Earthdweller IS plod. So I imagine he has seen a fair bit of this stuff. Correct me if I am wrong ED.

[MrBogSmith]

Anyone can ask for the sentence to be reviewed under the UL scheme.

The UL scheme, as I understand it and as someone who used it resulting in a sentence increase, is to correct incorrect sentences. I'm not sure it can change the fundamental offences.

Therefore I don't see how anyone can conclude this isn't correct given evidence provided from the 5 expert witnesses.

119 said:

MrBogSmith said:

Square Leg said:

Manslaughter then..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamsh...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamsh...

Not a big surprise given his MH history.

I suspect he'll be detained indefinitely.

Un fking believable.

This country is shot to st.

I assume this isn't a parody post given the nature of the topic.

This isn't something new across criminal justice systems across the world. It's long been acknowledged that that some people may not have the capacity to go down the usual route of a normal prison.

If the evidence leads to a conclusion of severe-enough mental health issues (it's a very high threshold, despite that people have implied here), then that's the appropriate route to take.

It may, understandably, not be a satisfactory outcome for the family, but we either have the option to place extremely dangerous, seriously mentally ill offenders in secure hospitals / facilities, or not. And if we do, which we do, then they will be used.

gt_12345 said:

Every criminal has a mental illness if you look hard enough.

Should we stop jailing people because they're narcissists?

No, this isn't something new.

It's been in its modern form, IIRC, since 1957.

[durbster]

mac96 said:

oddman said:

For those who are struggling to understand the decisions made in regard to whether he had criminal responsibility for the offences and the rationale for a hospital order, the Judge's sentencing remarks can be found here

To me these remarks are a model of clarity and compassion - well worth reading beyond the headlines to get a greater understanding of the hows and whys of dealing with these difficult cases.

Thanks for posting that, very interesting.

It may be obvious, but I didn't know that a huge downside of a prison sentence would be the prospect of eventual release into the supervision of the Probation Service who would naturally be totally unqualified to asses his mental state and spot signs of deterioration. So meaning that reoffending would be more likely .

Yeah, I'd echo that. Thanks for posting the Judge's remarks. Well worth reading before forming an opinion on the verdict.