CV19 - Cure Worse Than The Disease? (Vol 19)
Discussion
Hants PHer said:
Boringvolvodriver said:
<edited for brevity>
I can only cite an example of a situation that I was aware of in the early days
70 year old who wasn’t so well with covid - wife kept on ringing 111 and the advice was to treat at home, he continued to worsen and despite numerous calls to 111 they refused to accept that he needed to be in hospital. Eventually after a lot of pressure from wife, taken into hospital and given medication which the doctors refused to say what it was. At some point in the 24 hours before he died, the doctor said to wife “does he know that he is dying?”. Went down as a covid death.
I'm sure there were many instances of poor care, especially in the early days of the pandemic. But that's not what Wilson Sy is claiming. He's alleging that 1) there wasn't a Covid virus in the first place, and that 2) there was "systemic euthanasia" in place. Designed by whom, he doesn't say.I can only cite an example of a situation that I was aware of in the early days
70 year old who wasn’t so well with covid - wife kept on ringing 111 and the advice was to treat at home, he continued to worsen and despite numerous calls to 111 they refused to accept that he needed to be in hospital. Eventually after a lot of pressure from wife, taken into hospital and given medication which the doctors refused to say what it was. At some point in the 24 hours before he died, the doctor said to wife “does he know that he is dying?”. Went down as a covid death.
Come on, BVD, you're a sensible person. Do you really believe that there was no Covid virus, and that the April 2020 peak was caused by medics across the UK deciding to euthanise old people for reasons unknown? Oh, and presumably the same happened in other countries with a spike of Covid: their medics were part of this "systemic euthanasia". It's typical conspiracy theory cobblers.
It seems obvious that this was a form of aggressive triage which was intended to protect hospital capacity for those deemed more likely to benefit from it.
This policy remained in place long after the first wave abated. It continued after it became clear that hospital capacity was not under immediate threat and the Nightingale emergency overflow facilities were not needed. Hence the reports of significant increases in deaths at home whilst hospitals stood relatively empty.
I think it is at least possible that people died unnecessarily as a result of this policy. I also think that, if the policy had been required because the virus was more deadly, that this could be reasonably described as a form of state sanctioned euthanasia.
This in itself is not a conspiracy theory. It is an openly stated policy. The real question is if it caused unnecessary harm. We don’t know the answer to that and this deeply flawed paper does nothing to advance our understanding.
jameswills said:
I'd like to try and have good discussions, but I do admit you will just end up going round in circles and then the inevitable sea-lioning occurs 
I find it amusing that all those in the other thread spend all their time writing psycho babble about us "thick people who see everything as a conspiracy theory" yet within seconds of posting a link to an article or video, the first thing they do is ..... label it as a conspiracy
just to get rich from views from "the easily led" or it's because they want to sell a book, and the actual content of the article or video is not because they are interested or concerned, but just want to sell their stuff 
. The irony that they're posting this in a thread called "conspiracy theorists - are they all thick?" is completely lost on them. It's even funnier when you consider that JC's channel isn't even monetised 
.They have been getting quite angry in recent days because some of the people they've launched attacks at have bitten back and they really don't like that when they get challenged on their BS, hence the wailing and screaming to "f
k off back to the covid thread" in a desperate attempt to avoid having to answer the questions . Hopefully Pengiun, Ashford, Isal, WGB and BVD will continue to keep them busy .r3g said:
I find it amusing that all those in the other thread spend all their time writing psycho babble about us "thick people who see everything as a conspiracy theory" yet within seconds of posting a link to an article or video, the first thing they do is ..... label it as a conspiracy just to get rich from views from "the easily led" or it's because they want to sell a book, and the actual content of the article or video is not because they are interested or concerned, but just want to sell their stuff . The irony that they're posting this in a thread called "conspiracy theorists - are they all thick?" is completely lost on them. It's even funnier when you consider that JC's channel isn't even monetised .
They have been getting quite angry in recent days because some of the people they've launched attacks at have bitten back and they really don't like that when they get challenged on their BS, hence the wailing and screaming to "fk off back to the covid thread" in a desperate attempt to avoid having to answer the questions . Hopefully Pengiun, Ashford, Isal, WGB and BVD will continue to keep them busy .
I must admit that I was tempted to reply In a similar vein to them although I really couldn’t be bothered. The irony isn’t lost on me either especially since I think it was one of their own that started the Covid discussion! I mean they call it the “loon” thread so nothing like a closed mind. just to get rich from views from "the easily led" or it's because they want to sell a book, and the actual content of the article or video is not because they are interested or concerned, but just want to sell their stuff . The irony that they're posting this in a thread called "conspiracy theorists - are they all thick?" is completely lost on them. It's even funnier when you consider that JC's channel isn't even monetised .They have been getting quite angry in recent days because some of the people they've launched attacks at have bitten back and they really don't like that when they get challenged on their BS, hence the wailing and screaming to "f
k off back to the covid thread" in a desperate attempt to avoid having to answer the questions . Hopefully Pengiun, Ashford, Isal, WGB and BVD will continue to keep them busy .When a counter argument is presented or awkward questions asked, then the abuse does indeed start although that is the case across social media in general these days.
Boringvolvodriver said:
I must admit that I was tempted to reply In a similar vein to them although I really couldn’t be bothered. The irony isn’t lost on me either especially since I think it was one of their own that started the Covid discussion! I mean they call it the “loon” thread so nothing like a closed mind.
When a counter argument is presented or awkward questions asked, then the abuse does indeed start although that is the case across social media in general these days.
I'd go easy on them though - 590 (baby) pages in and they still seem to be struggling with what a Conspiracy Theorist actually is. So far the definition appears to be "anyone who disagrees with them". I keep getting called one as I keep popping in to wind them up (and point out Birds aren't real) which is one thing, but isaldiri getting called one the other day was the point where it properly jumped the shark. When a counter argument is presented or awkward questions asked, then the abuse does indeed start although that is the case across social media in general these days.
But then again, they keep referring to this as the "loon" thread as you say, then get all pissy when someone from the "loon" thread jumps in and says "Hang on a minute". So serves em right
It's very childish to backbite about posters over different threads, and I don't condone it, but the whole concept of that thread is farcical so I suppose I'm happy to indulge also
There's a huge amount of irony in claiming that so called CTers find one topic and then latch onto others when I'd imagine on the other side every single story on the BBC News they will lap up and regurgitate at the water cooler or down the pub.
We certainly don't have similar views on this topic here at all, and for me that it's excellent. Keep some of my more wild posts I know I'm capable of doing in check with very reasonable and well thought out arguments from others, even if I don't agree. Midazolam stuff earlier a good example. It's important to keep discussing and putting points across, the future needs an accurate account of what truly went on, it's clear the "have moved on" brigade had already rewritten the Covid era.
There's a huge amount of irony in claiming that so called CTers find one topic and then latch onto others when I'd imagine on the other side every single story on the BBC News they will lap up and regurgitate at the water cooler or down the pub.
We certainly don't have similar views on this topic here at all, and for me that it's excellent. Keep some of my more wild posts I know I'm capable of doing in check with very reasonable and well thought out arguments from others, even if I don't agree. Midazolam stuff earlier a good example. It's important to keep discussing and putting points across, the future needs an accurate account of what truly went on, it's clear the "have moved on" brigade had already rewritten the Covid era.
jameswills said:
It's very childish to backbite about posters over different threads, and I don't condone it, but the whole concept of that thread is farcical so I suppose I'm happy to indulge also
There's a huge amount of irony in claiming that so called CTers find one topic and then latch onto others when I'd imagine on the other side every single story on the BBC News they will lap up and regurgitate at the water cooler or down the pub.
We certainly don't have similar views on this topic here at all, and for me that it's excellent. Keep some of my more wild posts I know I'm capable of doing in check with very reasonable and well thought out arguments from others, even if I don't agree. Midazolam stuff earlier a good example. It's important to keep discussing and putting points across, the future needs an accurate account of what truly went on, it's clear the "have moved on" brigade had already rewritten the Covid era.
It's fair game imo. The thread was started way back in 2020 and from having a quick glance, it was only a few posts in until they were straight into throwing jibes around at the people talking in the covaids thread. I've lost count of the number of times my name has been mentioned in there and memes posted in an attempt to mock me, but it's water off a duck's back to me and I'll often respond in kind when they start getting above their stations and put them back in their boxes There's a huge amount of irony in claiming that so called CTers find one topic and then latch onto others when I'd imagine on the other side every single story on the BBC News they will lap up and regurgitate at the water cooler or down the pub.
We certainly don't have similar views on this topic here at all, and for me that it's excellent. Keep some of my more wild posts I know I'm capable of doing in check with very reasonable and well thought out arguments from others, even if I don't agree. Midazolam stuff earlier a good example. It's important to keep discussing and putting points across, the future needs an accurate account of what truly went on, it's clear the "have moved on" brigade had already rewritten the Covid era.
.Secretly they do want to talk about the covaids and mock the "loons" and in fact regularly do so unprovoked despite having "moved on", but you'll note they are only happy to do this within the confines of their 'clique'. The moment an 'outsider' comes in from this thread to present them with some facts and evidence, immediately they all scramble to their battle stations to shoot you down and kick you out as they have next to no ammo for their guns and don't want to be exposed.
The existence and content of the thread itself breaks pretty much every PH forum rule and should have been locked or deleted back in December 2020, but I guess the house mods prefer to leave it as the light banter and piss-taking back and forth between each thread is mostly self-moderating vs the absolute carnage and mayhem that would undoubtedly ensue if they were all in here posting their nonsense
. The 'report' button would be broken in like 2 seconds.Besides, there are plenty of 'denialists' amongst the regulars in this thread, eg. those still putting everything down to government incompetence and the masses of people in good health dying from sudden heart attacks and cancer is apparently completely normal and just a result of NHS appointments being put back a few weeks.
bodhi said:
Boringvolvodriver said:
I must admit that I was tempted to reply In a similar vein to them although I really couldn’t be bothered. The irony isn’t lost on me either especially since I think it was one of their own that started the Covid discussion! I mean they call it the “loon” thread so nothing like a closed mind.
When a counter argument is presented or awkward questions asked, then the abuse does indeed start although that is the case across social media in general these days.
I'd go easy on them though - 590 (baby) pages in and they still seem to be struggling with what a Conspiracy Theorist actually is. So far the definition appears to be "anyone who disagrees with them". I keep getting called one as I keep popping in to wind them up (and point out Birds aren't real) which is one thing, but isaldiri getting called one the other day was the point where it properly jumped the shark. When a counter argument is presented or awkward questions asked, then the abuse does indeed start although that is the case across social media in general these days.
But then again, they keep referring to this as the "loon" thread as you say, then get all pissy when someone from the "loon" thread jumps in and says "Hang on a minute". So serves em right
coldel said:
Ashfordian said:
I am part of the conspiracy community because I advocated a Covid response similar to Sweden. Based on your close-minded view that makes the whole of Sweden and their prominent experts Anders Tegnell & Johan Giesecke also part of said community. Or simply, this is the public health response the UK would have had without politicians thinking about the ballot box.
The one thing that you and many others on this thread have demonstrated, is that we know that as a German citizen in 1930's Germany you would have supported the government and their actions. And that is never a good look no matter how much word salad you try to use to say you would not have gone along with said Government actions! Otherwise you would be a CT'er...
I think its important to understand historical facts around the rise of Hitler and Germany in those times, the fractures in the public thinking, why Hitler came to power. Its a lot more complex than the very simple terms you have used above. Its a poor comparison, but one that gets trotted out every now and again.The one thing that you and many others on this thread have demonstrated, is that we know that as a German citizen in 1930's Germany you would have supported the government and their actions. And that is never a good look no matter how much word salad you try to use to say you would not have gone along with said Government actions! Otherwise you would be a CT'er...
Someone that doesn't agree with a CT point of view doesn't automatically drop into one single other pool of people. This is a construct of a CT 'leading voice' if you might call it that, that makes a following CT feel like some sort of defender of the truth or the like - its us vs them. Any Man Utd fan from the 90s and 00s can tell you all about siege mentality and the motivating effect it has...
The reality is quite different. The people that do not agree with you as a CT are multiple groups, multiple levels, just because you dont agree with the government on something doesn't mean everyone else just sheepishly nods and does. This is a complete fallacy.
Ashfordian said:
coldel said:
Although you think this is a defence of your stance, it just validates exactly what I wrote. I actually agree with some of the 'facts' that people have posted, because they undeniably happened. As mentioned, then taking a giant leap into conspiracy creations of the various ilk we hear is the issue.
'They' are out to get us
'They' lied to us all to take away our freedoms
'They' controlled us
'They' created it
'They' used it as an experiment
The broad brush statements like being allowed to be controlled, deliberately ignoring longer term consequences, are all a function of the programming of CT leading voices you are just playing back that validate your anxiety and fears of authority. This apparent huge group of people in this binary defined world doesnt exist in the simple form described, even conspiracies aside the population does not exist this way. There are dozens of nuances, differences, behaviours.
Somewhat ironically, the authority that controls the extreme views of COVID are 'hoodwinking' many. The 'truth' is a grey sweet spot somewhere in the middle, its complex to find and define, but its there and takes elements from all over the place. This very simple binary view of the population you have, the other group you defined, which is in reality much more diverse and fractured, is probably where that proper view of it all sits.
This isn't a unique set of circumstances. This is a behaviour set that applies itself to the predominant issues of the day. In ten years time it will be something else. COVID is the issue of the day, all these long term fears will in the long term ironically be forgotten and something else will rise and provide the endless internet evidence locker room to start over.
To you anyone who questions the UK's Covid response is a CT'er. Yet, you write all the contradictory stuff above about nuances, grey, differences, etc'They' are out to get us
'They' lied to us all to take away our freedoms
'They' controlled us
'They' created it
'They' used it as an experiment
The broad brush statements like being allowed to be controlled, deliberately ignoring longer term consequences, are all a function of the programming of CT leading voices you are just playing back that validate your anxiety and fears of authority. This apparent huge group of people in this binary defined world doesnt exist in the simple form described, even conspiracies aside the population does not exist this way. There are dozens of nuances, differences, behaviours.
Somewhat ironically, the authority that controls the extreme views of COVID are 'hoodwinking' many. The 'truth' is a grey sweet spot somewhere in the middle, its complex to find and define, but its there and takes elements from all over the place. This very simple binary view of the population you have, the other group you defined, which is in reality much more diverse and fractured, is probably where that proper view of it all sits.
This isn't a unique set of circumstances. This is a behaviour set that applies itself to the predominant issues of the day. In ten years time it will be something else. COVID is the issue of the day, all these long term fears will in the long term ironically be forgotten and something else will rise and provide the endless internet evidence locker room to start over.
You and others try to blur the lines and imply questioning is the same as the outright loonies, because you are uncomfortable with your own actions that you took and want to deflect away from any questioning of them.
It seems hard to believe that all those open-minded about conspiracy theories fall into one single group. Rather, it could (should) be argued that they should also be considered in terms of having a range of viewpoints, and that it appears such a range of viewpoints is being broad-brushed to enable easy labelling and (arguably) easier denigration of the more reasonable 'conspiracy theories' by grouping them with the wackier ideas.
I'm not sure if the above would fall under 'othering' (which in terms of resulting in a 'undesirable' group could potentially be seen as echoing actions of the past) but the Guardian has previously noted (albeit with particular reference to demographic changes in the quoted article) that sudden and large changes in society can lead to such actions:
https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/nov/08...
Guardian said:
When societies experience big and rapid change, a frequent response is for people to narrowly define who qualifies as a full member of society – a process I call “Othering”. An alternative response is seeing the change in demographics as positive, and regarding the apparent other as enhancing our life and who we are. This is what I refer to as “belonging and bridging”.
Othering is not about liking or disliking someone. It is based on the conscious or unconscious assumption that a certain identified group poses a threat to the favoured group. It is largely driven by politicians and the media, as opposed to personal contact. Overwhelmingly, people don’t “know” those that they are Othering.
Othering is not about liking or disliking someone. It is based on the conscious or unconscious assumption that a certain identified group poses a threat to the favoured group. It is largely driven by politicians and the media, as opposed to personal contact. Overwhelmingly, people don’t “know” those that they are Othering.
Edited by RSTurboPaul on Thursday 25th April 18:13
r3g said:
It's fair game imo. The thread was started way back in 2020 and from having a quick glance, it was only a few posts in until they were straight into throwing jibes around at the people talking in the covaids thread. I've lost count of the number of times my name has been mentioned in there and memes posted in an attempt to mock me, but it's water off a duck's back to me and I'll often respond in kind when they start getting above their stations and put them back in their boxes .
Secretly they do want to talk about the covaids and mock the "loons" and in fact regularly do so unprovoked despite having "moved on", but you'll note they are only happy to do this within the confines of their 'clique'. The moment an 'outsider' comes in from this thread to present them with some facts and evidence, immediately they all scramble to their battle stations to shoot you down and kick you out as they have next to no ammo for their guns and don't want to be exposed.
The existence and content of the thread itself breaks pretty much every PH forum rule and should have been locked or deleted back in December 2020, but I guess the house mods prefer to leave it as the light banter and piss-taking back and forth between each thread is mostly self-moderating vs the absolute carnage and mayhem that would undoubtedly ensue if they were all in here posting their nonsense . The 'report' button would be broken in like 2 seconds.
Besides, there are plenty of 'denialists' amongst the regulars in this thread, eg. those still putting everything down to government incompetence and the masses of people in good health dying from sudden heart attacks and cancer is apparently completely normal and just a result of NHS appointments being put back a few weeks.
Can’t disagree with any of that. Very much used to that modus operandi! I’ve said numerous times I have no idea how that thread exists when it has effectively been used for bullying other posters. But in many ways doesn’t surprise me now I view the media space in a very different light. .Secretly they do want to talk about the covaids and mock the "loons" and in fact regularly do so unprovoked despite having "moved on", but you'll note they are only happy to do this within the confines of their 'clique'. The moment an 'outsider' comes in from this thread to present them with some facts and evidence, immediately they all scramble to their battle stations to shoot you down and kick you out as they have next to no ammo for their guns and don't want to be exposed.
The existence and content of the thread itself breaks pretty much every PH forum rule and should have been locked or deleted back in December 2020, but I guess the house mods prefer to leave it as the light banter and piss-taking back and forth between each thread is mostly self-moderating vs the absolute carnage and mayhem that would undoubtedly ensue if they were all in here posting their nonsense
. The 'report' button would be broken in like 2 seconds.Besides, there are plenty of 'denialists' amongst the regulars in this thread, eg. those still putting everything down to government incompetence and the masses of people in good health dying from sudden heart attacks and cancer is apparently completely normal and just a result of NHS appointments being put back a few weeks.
The “incompetence” thing is hilarious, the more incompetent these people get the richer and more powerful they become. They seem to land very nice jobs within organisations that directly profited from their “incompetence”. But that’s all just CT wibble obviously
bodhi said:
I'd go easy on them though - 590 (baby) pages in and they still seem to be struggling with what a Conspiracy Theorist actually is. So far the definition appears to be "anyone who disagrees with them". I keep getting called one as I keep popping in to wind them up (and point out Birds aren't real) which is one thing, but isaldiri getting called one the other day was the point where it properly jumped the shark.
But then again, they keep referring to this as the "loon" thread as you say, then get all pissy when someone from the "loon" thread jumps in and says "Hang on a minute". So serves em right
I suppose just like there is an uncanny similarity between much of the far left and far right than both sides would like to admit, the same is probably true of those who are quick to brand others as 'conspiracy theorists' and those who call others 'denialists' as well..... To put it less politely, they are similar turds floating in the same cesspool.But then again, they keep referring to this as the "loon" thread as you say, then get all pissy when someone from the "loon" thread jumps in and says "Hang on a minute". So serves em right
Quite curious though as to what conspiracy theory I'm supposed to believe (birds not being real being, of course, proven fact rather than a conspiracy theory). Apart from not having sufficient faith in 'verified experts' and/or disagreeing with an 'approved' poster on that side, I'm not entirely sure what I am doing wrong in raising some points in reply to a poster who started talking about covid there....
isaldiri said:
I suppose just like there is an uncanny similarity between much of the far left and far right than both sides would like to admit, the same is probably true of those who are quick to brand others as 'conspiracy theorists' and those who call others 'denialists' as well..... To put it less politely, they are similar turds floating in the same cesspool.
Quite curious though as to what conspiracy theory I'm supposed to believe (birds not being real being, of course, proven fact rather than a conspiracy theory). Apart from not having sufficient faith in 'verified experts' and/or disagreeing with an 'approved' poster on that side, I'm not entirely sure what I am doing wrong in raising some points in reply to a poster who started talking about covid there....
WRT your last paragraph, I don’t think you would manage to obtain a sensible answer from some of the posters on there apart from “ the “loon” thread is over there”…….Quite curious though as to what conspiracy theory I'm supposed to believe (birds not being real being, of course, proven fact rather than a conspiracy theory). Apart from not having sufficient faith in 'verified experts' and/or disagreeing with an 'approved' poster on that side, I'm not entirely sure what I am doing wrong in raising some points in reply to a poster who started talking about covid there....
My thoughts are that there is a split as follows
20% who are in the “everything that happened was perfectly legitimate and in fact didn’t go far enough bracket - we should still all be wearing masks etc
20% in the “ it was all manufactured by the elites/WEF in order to gain control, covid didn’t exist etc” type of extreme thinking.
Of the remaining 60%, there will be a percentage who are unsure but trend towards the extreme views and then perhaps 40% who are open to all issues and judge the position based on facts and hard evidence.
The 60% are capable of moving their position whilst the 40% at each end will never move from their views
Elysium said:
There is documentary evidence that the NHS (presumably guided by Govt) put policies in place under which patients who were very ill with COVID would be given end of life treatment like Midazolam at home instead of being admitted to hospital.
It seems obvious that this was a form of aggressive triage which was intended to protect hospital capacity for those deemed more likely to benefit from it.
This policy remained in place long after the first wave abated. It continued after it became clear that hospital capacity was not under immediate threat and the Nightingale emergency overflow facilities were not needed. Hence the reports of significant increases in deaths at home whilst hospitals stood relatively empty.
I think it is at least possible that people died unnecessarily as a result of this policy. I also think that, if the policy had been required because the virus was more deadly, that this could be reasonably described as a form of state sanctioned euthanasia.
This in itself is not a conspiracy theory. It is an openly stated policy. The real question is if it caused unnecessary harm. We don’t know the answer to that and this deeply flawed paper does nothing to advance our understanding.
I think those in charge, or a significant number of them, believed Ferguson's claims and the rest followed naturally. To the measures taken above there was also the decision to set up temporary morgues. It seems obvious that this was a form of aggressive triage which was intended to protect hospital capacity for those deemed more likely to benefit from it.
This policy remained in place long after the first wave abated. It continued after it became clear that hospital capacity was not under immediate threat and the Nightingale emergency overflow facilities were not needed. Hence the reports of significant increases in deaths at home whilst hospitals stood relatively empty.
I think it is at least possible that people died unnecessarily as a result of this policy. I also think that, if the policy had been required because the virus was more deadly, that this could be reasonably described as a form of state sanctioned euthanasia.
This in itself is not a conspiracy theory. It is an openly stated policy. The real question is if it caused unnecessary harm. We don’t know the answer to that and this deeply flawed paper does nothing to advance our understanding.
I think myself it was clear within a few weeks that the Ferguson scenario was not correct and I remember wondering in Mid-April when the lockdown would be lifted as this became clear. Instead there was inertia, not helped by Bojo the clown being hospitalised, and nothing changed for weeks on end and no decisions were changed.
M1AGM said:
I remember my little boy was really keen on skateboarding at the time. York council had locked up all the skate parks ‘cos covid’ so we drove a 1 hour round trip to another jurisdiction where the skate park had no fencing or barriers so the council couldnt chain it shut. I wouldnt be surprised if the risk from a RTA doing the journey was higher than the risk of dying from covid caught on a skate park, certainly for my son it was.
And all the while garden centres remained open…
My grandson is 3 now. If something like this happened again and i saw that i would be cutting the chains. Councils manage all public owned stuff on our behalf, they are public servants, there to serve the public. I know these days there are plenty within many councils with jumped up ideas of their own self importance ,authority and ability but best to just ignore them and do what you know is right for you and yours.And all the while garden centres remained open…
r3g said:
Gadgetmac is james6112 ?? The former posted in Feb so looks like 2 different people, unless they are swapping between accounts.
There are loads of people doing that and changing user names on here,some might be down to returning banned posters or buggered accounts but i think many are just fking weirdos, like the obvious bloke (that will have their other account for usual posts) pretending to be a mum of 3 with a brother that wrote off her car and is now in jail. I always wondered how so many intelligent people get scammed every year in the UK, then i look at threads like that and realise some people are only too willing to see what they want to see.jameswills said:
I’ve not read it, but just from reading the above two comments on it I agree with the beliefs of the author and it’s entirely possible that it happened and not some conspiracy. There were a huge spike in deaths over a very short space in time and I believe this was the fear induced panic which resulted in extremely poor health care measures tackling something that they were told was worse than it was and not using any common sense at all. Ventilation, early end of life treatment, moving a huge number of frail and elderly people about causing undue stress to them, what do you think would happen? Unsure I go with some premeditated euthanasia experiment, but someone somewhere really didn’t have any persons best interests at heart.
Then it completely disappeared. That year no one was ill that I knew, it was just news articles and rolling news of deaths figures, but couldn’t really see where the sick were. The hospitals were absolutely empty. That was not a “virus” induced spike in my eyes. If you’d never been told about Covid you’d have been looking for another Harold Shipman.
What you are describing can be explained by the general incompetence we see in many walks of life these days. Especially given what people were told to expect was coming with footage of people dropping in the street and the Italian hospital overwhelmed (like it is every time there is a bad year of flu due to some weird quirk of genetics in the region) that set many into a blind panic.Then it completely disappeared. That year no one was ill that I knew, it was just news articles and rolling news of deaths figures, but couldn’t really see where the sick were. The hospitals were absolutely empty. That was not a “virus” induced spike in my eyes. If you’d never been told about Covid you’d have been looking for another Harold Shipman.
No need to ascribe malice where all of the above covers it.
Boringvolvodriver said:
I know that there was a virus and that COVID caused deaths to those who were vulnerable - I certainly don't go along with the report as written.
The point is that some people died who could have been treated if the NHS under instructions from government hadn't closed down.
In this regard the NHS functions similar to our banks. If a large proportion of people wanted to draw their money out the bank at the same time there is going to be a big problem, mass panic and general chaos. Many will not get their money. If huge numbers of us get sick at the same time the NHS gets overwhelmed in a similar fashion.The point is that some people died who could have been treated if the NHS under instructions from government hadn't closed down.
Boringvolvodriver said:
My thoughts are that there is a split as follows
20% who are in the “everything that happened was perfectly legitimate and in fact didn’t go far enough bracket - we should still all be wearing masks etc
20% in the “ it was all manufactured by the elites/WEF in order to gain control, covid didn’t exist etc” type of extreme thinking.
Of the remaining 60%, there will be a percentage who are unsure but trend towards the extreme views and then perhaps 40% who are open to all issues and judge the position based on facts and hard evidence.
The 60% are capable of moving their position whilst the 40% at each end will never move from their views
While I used to think that as well and have said so here I believe about that split as you mention above, I don't actually think that has shown itself to be true. Especially at this stage. 20% who are in the “everything that happened was perfectly legitimate and in fact didn’t go far enough bracket - we should still all be wearing masks etc
20% in the “ it was all manufactured by the elites/WEF in order to gain control, covid didn’t exist etc” type of extreme thinking.
Of the remaining 60%, there will be a percentage who are unsure but trend towards the extreme views and then perhaps 40% who are open to all issues and judge the position based on facts and hard evidence.
The 60% are capable of moving their position whilst the 40% at each end will never move from their views
IMO, that split is more a case of perhaps 10% on each side is extremely strident, vocal and unpleasant about it. For the remaining, say 80%, I'd say probably 50%, maybe 60% have made their mind up long ago about the matter and are going to be very[ unwilling to change their views no matter what, even if they aren't going to be as unpleasant about it to others as the earlier group. There's only a small % of people who are going to agree to reconsider whether what originally made them take that position was reasonable.
There have been a couple of psychology studies done pre covid I believe that show the default position of people is to double down when presented with evidence to the contrary rather than reconsider their original position - that has shown itself to be rather accurate over the pandemic I think.....
wc98 said:
In this regard the NHS functions similar to our banks. If a large proportion of people wanted to draw their money out the bank at the same time there is going to be a big problem, mass panic and general chaos. Many will not get their money. If huge numbers of us get sick at the same time the NHS gets overwhelmed in a similar fashion.
At risk of overstretching analogies, if you're going to use that bank example, what actually happened at the time was more the banks had higher demand than usual on euro or USD balances but refused flat out to allow depositors to access their GBP balances for ages. Hospital capacity overall was much lower than 'normal' in that time although ICU capacity was under considerable pressure. As pneumothorax had mentioned at the time here on the thread in April, the NHS had seemingly had a directive to refusing ... well... nearly anything as far as possible if it might be lead to ICU capacity being used and as a result a lot of people ended up lacking fairly basic medical care from medics/ambulances not being sent around as per 'normal' and those people getting 'normal' hospital care.
And that also seemed to have persisted long past 'the peak' (as in the real one of April 9-10th rather than the one Hancock/Whitty/Vallance continued talking about that wasn't past till the end of April) which probably was rather problematic to those that needed care, although some would quite blithely just dismiss that as 'triage, how unfair' like a few posts above I suppose......
isaldiri said:
I suppose just like there is an uncanny similarity between much of the far left and far right than both sides would like to admit, the same is probably true of those who are quick to brand others as 'conspiracy theorists' and those who call others 'denialists' as well..... To put it less politely, they are similar turds floating in the same cesspool.
Quite curious though as to what conspiracy theory I'm supposed to believe (birds not being real being, of course, proven fact rather than a conspiracy theory). Apart from not having sufficient faith in 'verified experts' and/or disagreeing with an 'approved' poster on that side, I'm not entirely sure what I am doing wrong in raising some points in reply to a poster who started talking about covid there....
It was the first time in fairness that I'd seen horseshoe theory in action, with one extreme of the debate aligning pretty well with the other extreme. For eg take the vaccines neither side had any faith in them - the extreme anti-vaxxers for all sorts of weird reasons, and the zero COVID lot who insisted we had to keep locked down, even after the vaccines had been rolled out. It was very bizarre being in the middle of that thinking - well they seem useful for some, not so much for others. Quite curious though as to what conspiracy theory I'm supposed to believe (birds not being real being, of course, proven fact rather than a conspiracy theory). Apart from not having sufficient faith in 'verified experts' and/or disagreeing with an 'approved' poster on that side, I'm not entirely sure what I am doing wrong in raising some points in reply to a poster who started talking about covid there....
I still maintain however the big split in COVID wasn't the usual left/right split, it was the other axis on the political compass - authoritarians vs liberals - and just how much nannying and controlling people needed - whether people thought they were all muppets and needed locked in their homes, or if they could be trusted to make their own decisions given the info (a lot on here, Sweden, Florida etc).
As to how we ended up being Conspiracy Theorists thats a new one on me. Don't get me wrong there are some on this thread you can definitely throw that accusation at - the more reasonable discussion, not so much. It seems if you don't entirely trust the experts that's it, you're a CTer. A bit strange, given Richard Fenyman famously said that "Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts" - i.e it doesn't move forward if everyone agrees with the orthodoxy at the time.
There's also the fact experts often disagree - nothing new in science but it took a very sinister development during COVID with censorship (especially of the GBD), smear campaigns (that infernal covdfaq website), etc etc. None of which was nice to see, but where we were in 2020 unfortunately....
With a nod to Carl Heneghan I prefer to trust the evidence rather than the experts, which was interesting during COVID, as an awful lot of evidence (age stratification of the disease, efficacy of masks, the smoking thing etc) seemed to be thrown by the wayside in favour of whatever would annoy the other side of the argument the most.....
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