CV19 - Cure Worse Than The Disease? (Vol 19)

[jameswills]

zarjaz1991 said:

True of many foods as well.

With vaccines though, the theory is that the benefits outweigh the risks.

That’s the message sold yes, when you deep dive into it, it’s at best nonsense, at worst it’s the opposite and has cause untold deaths and long term health problems. I’ve been looking into this now for ages, it’s not off the back of some Russell Brand 5 min YouTube video, before that gets thrown at me.

And yes foods is a bit of a nightmare too, I try not to think hard about that one, else I think I’d go a bit mad

[dandarez]

119 said:

I haven't seen any at all.

You are David Lammy and I claim my prize now.😷

[R Mutt]

Not sure what got me thinking about it again, but was COVID particular special in terms of the extremes in its range of outcomes? Or were these extremes simply rhetoric which gained traction and followed bad data?

On one hand we had the '2 poison jellybeans' analogy representing the early estimated 98% fatality rate. At the same time the idea of asymptomatic spread was leveraged to encourage people to stay at home. That figure was that 1/3 will have no symptoms at all. Of course the same people believed both sets of statistics.

So if we grade the outcomes from 1 to 10 with 10 being death, even going by the erroneous mortality figures, correct my maths if I'm wrong, that puts the average severity at 3.58 which I'd say it about the equivalent of a standard cold.

[Boringvolvodriver]

Hants PHer said:

jameswills said:

I think if they simply looked at the ingredients of any vaccine they’d never ingest it let alone inject it. We’ve just bred a nation of simple sheep for the last 100 years based on absolutely nothing.

Do you mean any Covid vaccine, or any vaccine at all? Surely you're not suggesting that, say, MMR vaccines should be avoided?

As for "simple sheep", that's rather harsh I think. I looked up the ingredients of the Pfizer Covid vaccine: the active ingredient is something called Tozinameran. Err, OK, that means nothing to me. Neither does (4-hydroxybutyl)azanediyl)bis(hexane-6,1-diyl)bis(2-hexyldecanoate), otherwise known as ALC-0315.

In reality, we place our trust in doctors and organisations like the MHRA to judge the safety of medicines on our behalf. That system may not be perfect, but relying on it does not make us a "nation of simple sheep" in my opinion.

For me it wasn’t the ingredients per se that concerned me, it was the fact that no mRNA vaccine had been approved for human use before despite years of work, the speed at which it was developed, the results of the trial data which to my eyes looked questionable and the emergency use only approval whilst longer trials continued.

I said at the time that based on my risk profile, I would wait until the trials ended before considering and if that meant missing out on travel and events then so be it - still managed travel!

In terms of the “sheep” aspect, it will always amaze me that so many people who previous didn’t trust politicians suddenly went along with it all without thinking about any issues at all.

[RemarkLima]

r3g said:

Boringvolvodriver said:

mko9 said:

We actually threw people out of the military who refused to get vaccinated. Now on the one hand there is the whole following orders bit. But on the other hand, you are talking about a group who are in their late teens and twenties, who are generally healthier than their equivalent civilian counterpart, and who we have invested untold amounts of time and money training. But we should just flush that away because they won't take a vaccine that neither prevents them from catching Covid nor from spreading Covid.

When you put it like that, it should be pretty clear to all that the vaccine mandates were absolute stupidity. One can’t help but wonder what was going through the minds of those who decided to impose such things……

The answer is staring everyone right in the face but few refuse to believe that their government overlords and those who control them can be so evil. It's all just a "coincidence" and "mere incompetence", because that's far more comforting for the plebs who live in a perpetual state of cognitive dissonance. But (very) slowly the plebs are waking up to the realisation that everything they thought was true was actually all lies, that they've been had. Most of the plebs are still in the denial phase on the Kübler-Ross chart.

I do not think it's evil or some master plan, just a heady combination of populist spineless leaders, policy decided by Facebook / Twitter masses and plan and simple greed.

They all feed into one another, and whilst getting rich, AND being popular, why stop?

zarjaz1991 said:

True of many foods as well.

With vaccines though, the theory is that the benefits outweigh the risks.

The sugar tax is a nightmare - everything has aspartame in now, or maybe stevia if you're lucky. Plus a lot of other emulsifiers and god know what else... I'd rather drink a drink with actual sugar in!

[pork911]

jameswills said:

zarjaz1991 said:

True of many foods as well.

With vaccines though, the theory is that the benefits outweigh the risks.

That’s the message sold yes, when you deep dive into it, it’s at best nonsense, at worst it’s the opposite and has cause untold deaths and long term health problems. I’ve been looking into this now for ages, it’s not off the back of some Russell Brand 5 min YouTube video, before that gets thrown at me.

And yes foods is a bit of a nightmare too, I try not to think hard about that one, else I think I’d go a bit mad

Well, I think OJ was fully vaccinated but MSM did not mention that.

Genuinely though do you think your life is better or worse for spending time researching vaccines?

[R Mutt]

RemarkLima said:

The sugar tax is a nightmare - everything has aspartame in now, or maybe stevia if you're lucky. Plus a lot of other emulsifiers and god know what else... I'd rather drink a drink with actual sugar in!

We've gone full circle on butter v margarine so here's hoping see natural stuff is usual better as long as it's not by the kilo. It's crazy drinks like San Pelegrino have had to switch to stevia. Jam obviously can't be made without sugar so why not leave it alone?

[RSTurboPaul]

pork911 said:

jameswills said:

zarjaz1991 said:

True of many foods as well.

With vaccines though, the theory is that the benefits outweigh the risks.

That’s the message sold yes, when you deep dive into it, it’s at best nonsense, at worst it’s the opposite and has cause untold deaths and long term health problems. I’ve been looking into this now for ages, it’s not off the back of some Russell Brand 5 min YouTube video, before that gets thrown at me.

And yes foods is a bit of a nightmare too, I try not to think hard about that one, else I think I’d go a bit mad

Well, I think OJ was fully vaccinated but MSM did not mention that.

Genuinely though do you think your life is better or worse for spending time researching vaccines?

How is 'better' and 'worse' being defined?

[gareth_r]

Telegraph: We saved lives by prolonging school closures in pandemic, say teachers
National Education Union submits conference motion saying it forced Government to change policy during Covid crisis

https://archive.ph/E1GRV

I hope you're all grateful.

[Boringvolvodriver]

gareth_r said:

Telegraph: We saved lives by prolonging school closures in pandemic, say teachers
National Education Union submits conference motion saying it forced Government to change policy during Covid crisis

https://archive.ph/E1GRV

I hope you're all grateful.

Words fail me really - especially when you hear about and see the effects that the closures had on children, especially those that are disadvantaged.

Yet more evidence of how the government were clearly influenced by all and sundry and didn’t have the ability to stand their ground.

[g3org3y]

gareth_r said:

Telegraph: We saved lives by prolonging school closures in pandemic, say teachers
National Education Union submits conference motion saying it forced Government to change policy during Covid crisis

https://archive.ph/E1GRV

I hope you're all grateful.

As my teachers would say: "show me your working"

[pork911]

RSTurboPaul said:

pork911 said:

jameswills said:

zarjaz1991 said:

True of many foods as well.

With vaccines though, the theory is that the benefits outweigh the risks.

That’s the message sold yes, when you deep dive into it, it’s at best nonsense, at worst it’s the opposite and has cause untold deaths and long term health problems. I’ve been looking into this now for ages, it’s not off the back of some Russell Brand 5 min YouTube video, before that gets thrown at me.

And yes foods is a bit of a nightmare too, I try not to think hard about that one, else I think I’d go a bit mad

Well, I think OJ was fully vaccinated but MSM did not mention that.

Genuinely though do you think your life is better or worse for spending time researching vaccines?

How is 'better' and 'worse' being defined?

Is the rabbit hole that deep?

[pocty]

pork911 said:

jameswills said:

zarjaz1991 said:

True of many foods as well.

With vaccines though, the theory is that the benefits outweigh the risks.

That’s the message sold yes, when you deep dive into it, it’s at best nonsense, at worst it’s the opposite and has cause untold deaths and long term health problems. I’ve been looking into this now for ages, it’s not off the back of some Russell Brand 5 min YouTube video, before that gets thrown at me.

And yes foods is a bit of a nightmare too, I try not to think hard about that one, else I think I’d go a bit mad

Well, I think OJ was fully vaccinated but MSM did not mention that.

Genuinely though do you think your life is better or worse for spending time researching vaccines?

Can I answer this one please.... It's better because he didn't take the vaccine and get myocarditis.

[OzzyR1]

119 said:

21st Century Man said:

I've noticed the return of face coverings whilst out and about, after an absence for a couple of years.

I haven't seen any at all.

Can't say I have either.
I go into & around London on the tube two or three days a week for work and the vast majority of people I notice wearing masks now are East / SE Asian in appearance.
That was the case before Covid, think it is more common practice to mask up on public transport in some countries: Japan, Korea etc.

Must say I still carry a little bottle of hand sanitiser with me - travelling during/after Covid made me realise how many people cough / sneeze into their hand then grab hold of the rails, or have a good scratch of their arse and use that hand to steady themselves on a carriage pole.

They get off at their stop, and you watch someone enter and grab the same handrail the previous person just wiped their snotty hand on.
I'm not a germophobe by any means, but it made me think about how grim most surfaces on public transport are.

[RSTurboPaul]

OzzyR1 said:

119 said:

21st Century Man said:

I've noticed the return of face coverings whilst out and about, after an absence for a couple of years.

I haven't seen any at all.

Can't say I have either.
I go into & around London on the tube two or three days a week for work and the vast majority of people I notice wearing masks now are East / SE Asian in appearance.
That was the case before Covid, think it is more common practice to mask up on public transport in some countries: Japan, Korea etc.

Must say I still carry a little bottle of hand sanitiser with me - travelling during/after Covid made me realise how many people cough / sneeze into their hand then grab hold of the rails, or have a good scratch of their arse and use that hand to steady themselves on a carriage pole.

They get off at their stop, and you watch someone enter and grab the same handrail the previous person just wiped their snotty hand on.
I'm not a germophobe by any means, but it made me think about how grim most surfaces on public transport are.

The study done to look at whether Covid could be found on / cultivated from surfaces on the rail network turned up, er, zero instances IIRC.

[RSTurboPaul]

pork911 said:

RSTurboPaul said:

pork911 said:

jameswills said:

zarjaz1991 said:

True of many foods as well.

With vaccines though, the theory is that the benefits outweigh the risks.

That’s the message sold yes, when you deep dive into it, it’s at best nonsense, at worst it’s the opposite and has cause untold deaths and long term health problems. I’ve been looking into this now for ages, it’s not off the back of some Russell Brand 5 min YouTube video, before that gets thrown at me.

And yes foods is a bit of a nightmare too, I try not to think hard about that one, else I think I’d go a bit mad

Well, I think OJ was fully vaccinated but MSM did not mention that.

Genuinely though do you think your life is better or worse for spending time researching vaccines?

How is 'better' and 'worse' being defined?

Is the rabbit hole that deep?

The underlying suggestion that is being made is not entirely clear.

Is it being suggested that being more aware of product ingredients and their potential side effects is 'a bad thing' and makes someone's life 'worse'?

[jameswills]

pork911 said:

Well, I think OJ was fully vaccinated but MSM did not mention that.

Genuinely though do you think your life is better or worse for spending time researching vaccines?

Much much better, I see through all the lies and bullst now, everything makes a lot more sense. Vaccines are a very small part of what I’ve dived into. I’ve tend to find now that whatever you are fed in terms of information, invert it and you’ll get much closer to the real truth and it’s easier to live your life. And digging into the real ideas and people behind certain decisions is quite an interesting and enlightening experience. Not for everyone, I’m sure. And also I’m not certain that I am “right” either. And that believe it or not is a nicer place to be than just lapping up every news story or government narrative!

[Timothy Bucktu]

RemarkLima said:

RSTurboPaul said:

Somewhere there is a graph showing adverse reactions by batch / time of production but I'm not sure where is it now. IIRC the assertion was that it appeared the products were being 'tweaked' as they went along.

Which is what you'd want - you'd want tweaks and improvements, process improvements and better QA / QC etc... As you would with any "product". Any faults and defects dealt with, and updates added.

The issue stems from that there was no real informed consent. If "bob" had a brain tumour and had 4 weeks to live, but could try drug A which would be a 10% of life, vs instant and painful death, it'd probably be a yes. If "bob" may get a cold for his age and risk factor, but could take drug B to avoid it, but it may cause heart issues, even if it was 0.000001%, it'd probably be a no.

And before the "no one had to" argument is thrown out there, the pressure to conform was enormous, and our social contract is to conform. This being spurred on by those making fortunes off the back of everything, it's not surprising that greed trumped prudence.

With respect...you absolutely do not make 'tweaks and improvements' to any drugs after the clinical trial process. The reason for this is obvious. In any other time, a company doing that would be severely punished.
That said, everyone blindly rushed in and were the clinical trial. Never has the term 'fools rush in' been so appropriate.

[119]

Timothy Bucktu said:

RemarkLima said:

RSTurboPaul said:

Somewhere there is a graph showing adverse reactions by batch / time of production but I'm not sure where is it now. IIRC the assertion was that it appeared the products were being 'tweaked' as they went along.

Which is what you'd want - you'd want tweaks and improvements, process improvements and better QA / QC etc... As you would with any "product". Any faults and defects dealt with, and updates added.

The issue stems from that there was no real informed consent. If "bob" had a brain tumour and had 4 weeks to live, but could try drug A which would be a 10% of life, vs instant and painful death, it'd probably be a yes. If "bob" may get a cold for his age and risk factor, but could take drug B to avoid it, but it may cause heart issues, even if it was 0.000001%, it'd probably be a no.

And before the "no one had to" argument is thrown out there, the pressure to conform was enormous, and our social contract is to conform. This being spurred on by those making fortunes off the back of everything, it's not surprising that greed trumped prudence.

With respect...you absolutely do not make 'tweaks and improvements' to any drugs after the clinical trial process. The reason for this is obvious. In any other time, a company doing that would be severely punished.
That said, everyone blindly rushed in and were the clinical trial. Never has the term 'fools rush in' been so appropriate.

I am sure the flu vaccine gets modified to deal with new strains.

[RSTurboPaul]

119 said:

Timothy Bucktu said:

RemarkLima said:

RSTurboPaul said:

Somewhere there is a graph showing adverse reactions by batch / time of production but I'm not sure where is it now. IIRC the assertion was that it appeared the products were being 'tweaked' as they went along.

Which is what you'd want - you'd want tweaks and improvements, process improvements and better QA / QC etc... As you would with any "product". Any faults and defects dealt with, and updates added.

The issue stems from that there was no real informed consent. If "bob" had a brain tumour and had 4 weeks to live, but could try drug A which would be a 10% of life, vs instant and painful death, it'd probably be a yes. If "bob" may get a cold for his age and risk factor, but could take drug B to avoid it, but it may cause heart issues, even if it was 0.000001%, it'd probably be a no.

And before the "no one had to" argument is thrown out there, the pressure to conform was enormous, and our social contract is to conform. This being spurred on by those making fortunes off the back of everything, it's not surprising that greed trumped prudence.

With respect...you absolutely do not make 'tweaks and improvements' to any drugs after the clinical trial process. The reason for this is obvious. In any other time, a company doing that would be severely punished.
That said, everyone blindly rushed in and were the clinical trial. Never has the term 'fools rush in' been so appropriate.

I am sure the flu vaccine gets modified to deal with new strains.

That is not the same as a product seemingly being modified during production after being granted emergency authorisation for one defined product.

(And IIRC they also changed the manufacturing process between the EUA submission and actual rollout globally without telling anyone...)