Israel invaded

[skwdenyer]

isaldiri said:

I wonder how you can state that so definitively. The Israelis clearly do not regard the gazans or indeed any of the palestinians as Israelis, de facto or otherwise. As for whether they could not carpet bomb the palestinians, it clearly could happen as long as the US chose to turn a blind eye as they do in quite a lot of other places where mass killings can and do happen and let's face it, mere squeamishness and restraint on the part of the Israelis certainly isn't the constraint....

Gaza was meant to be a part of a Palestinian state per the UN resolution. Israel took it over in its entirety, reduced it in size significantly, and corralled the inhabitants into a much smaller space. At no time have those people been entitled to any other citizenship; this is Israeli territory, and proper statehood is denied them.

What other modern “western” regimes have been allowed to get away with this sort of action against their own subjects?

All of this ignores the fact that it is Likud and co who have got us here. Had Baruk’s process been allowed to run its proper course, we’d have a 2-state solution by now. Actively creating “a bogeyman” to justify reactionary policies has been a mainstay of right wing Israeli politics for decades now.

[skwdenyer]

youngsyr said:

skwdenyer said:

Police Action in this context means occupying territory to enforce order and attempt to find perpetrators, not obliterating whole cities. Going street by street. Even we did that in Afghanistan.

So your answer is to follow exactly the same tactics that failed to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan?

Absolutely brilliant. Well done.

Defeating the Taliban was never on the cards. The only way to retain control of a country you’ve invaded is with overwhelming, infeasible force. Invading Afghanistan simply provided fuel to the fire of the Taliban as the resistance. Most historians would have told you it was doomed to fail.

The solution has to be political in the end. The only thing a “police action” might have achieved was to round up some of the October invaders and find some hostages. But you can’t realistically aim for much more than that.

[youngsyr]

skwdenyer said:

youngsyr said:

skwdenyer said:

Police Action in this context means occupying territory to enforce order and attempt to find perpetrators, not obliterating whole cities. Going street by street. Even we did that in Afghanistan.

So your answer is to follow exactly the same tactics that failed to defeat the Taliban in Afghanistan?

Absolutely brilliant. Well done.

Defeating the Taliban was never on the cards. The only way to retain control of a country you’ve invaded is with overwhelming, infeasible force. Invading Afghanistan simply provided fuel to the fire of the Taliban as the resistance. Most historians would have told you it was doomed to fail.

The solution has to be political in the end. The only thing a “police action” might have achieved was to round up some of the October invaders and find some hostages. But you can’t realistically aim for much more than that.

So what exactly are you saying they should have done?

Gone knocking door to door, lost umpteen thousands of IDF members in ambushes and IED booby traps and perhaps recovered a few hostages and Hamas soldiers, only then to withdraw back to Israel and the status quo?

That's your solution?

As I said, brilliant. Well done.

[JJJ.]

julian987R said:

JJJ. said:

'What's actually happening is asymmetric warfare were one side has killed 33,000 civilians, injured 72,000, displaced 1.5m etc, etc. Not forgetting hundreds killed and displaced in the West Bank.

Correct...and all down to Hamas. It aint rocket science this..

Nice to see you've got a sense of humor...

[julian987R]

JJJ. said:

julian987R said:

JJJ. said:

'What's actually happening is asymmetric warfare were one side has killed 33,000 civilians, injured 72,000, displaced 1.5m etc, etc. Not forgetting hundreds killed and displaced in the West Bank.

Correct...and all down to Hamas. It aint rocket science this..

Nice to see you've got a sense of humor...

If anyone is having a laugh it’s Hamas. They are loving all this. At a million killed they might stop laughing but upto then they are lapping up the deaths of their civilians that they brought upon them.

[JJJ.]

julian987R said:

JJJ. said:

julian987R said:

JJJ. said:

'What's actually happening is asymmetric warfare were one side has killed 33,000 civilians, injured 72,000, displaced 1.5m etc, etc. Not forgetting hundreds killed and displaced in the West Bank.

Correct...and all down to Hamas. It aint rocket science this..

Nice to see you've got a sense of humor...

If anyone is having a laugh it’s Hamas. They are loving all this. At a million killed they might stop laughing but upto then they are lapping up the deaths of their civilians that they brought upon them.

If Hama disappeared tomorrow, the Israeli's would still be killing Palestinian civilians, taking their homes, land and locking them up while treating them as sub human, just like they have been doing prior to October!

[youngsyr]

JJJ. said:

julian987R said:

JJJ. said:

julian987R said:

JJJ. said:

'What's actually happening is asymmetric warfare were one side has killed 33,000 civilians, injured 72,000, displaced 1.5m etc, etc. Not forgetting hundreds killed and displaced in the West Bank.

Correct...and all down to Hamas. It aint rocket science this..

Nice to see you've got a sense of humor...

If anyone is having a laugh it’s Hamas. They are loving all this. At a million killed they might stop laughing but upto then they are lapping up the deaths of their civilians that they brought upon them.

If Hama disappeared tomorrow, the Israeli's would still be killing Palestinian civilians, taking their homes, land and locking them up while treating them as sub human, just like they have been doing prior to October!

Presumably because another genocidal death cult would spring up in their place?

[isaldiri]

skwdenyer said:

isaldiri said:

I wonder how you can state that so definitively. The Israelis clearly do not regard the gazans or indeed any of the palestinians as Israelis, de facto or otherwise. As for whether they could not carpet bomb the palestinians, it clearly could happen as long as the US chose to turn a blind eye as they do in quite a lot of other places where mass killings can and do happen and let's face it, mere squeamishness and restraint on the part of the Israelis certainly isn't the constraint....

Gaza was meant to be a part of a Palestinian state per the UN resolution. Israel took it over in its entirety, reduced it in size significantly, and corralled the inhabitants into a much smaller space. At no time have those people been entitled to any other citizenship; this is Israeli territory, and proper statehood is denied them.

What other modern “western” regimes have been allowed to get away with this sort of action against their own subjects?

All of this ignores the fact that it is Likud and co who have got us here. Had Baruk’s process been allowed to run its proper course, we’d have a 2-state solution by now. Actively creating “a bogeyman” to justify reactionary policies has been a mainstay of right wing Israeli politics for decades now.

But that's exactly my point. Statehood and citizenship has clearly been denied to the palestinians so clearly they aren't being considered as Israelis.......

Ehud Barak that still continued settlement building at full pace even while publicly espousing a settlement at Camp David? That barak? And one might also note, who the public rejected in favour of the much harder response that Sharon was promising? Not really sure why you think he more than anyone else before or since (Rabin might have been an exception I admit) would have done all that differently either. the israeli population has shown little interest in a settlement that might be acceptable enough for the palestinians to be able to agree for all the lip service paid about wanting a 2 state solution - they quite obviously want a settlement that is almost wholly on Israeli terms as befitting their status as conquerors imo and that isn't changing anytime soon either.

I'd also suggest the precedent of regimes being able to get away with this sort of action as you put it is the benchmark rather than whether one might be a 'modern western regime'. ultimately it boils down to who bothers enough to stop it - in the case of Israel, only the US has the means to stop them and the palestinians just aren't sufficiently useful to the US such that they would consider cutting Israel loose nevermind actively use military force to stop them.

Just look at Turkey for example. they are a major Nato country and since.... well forever has been trying to crush the kurdish population (whether in their country or in others) to prevent any glimmer of hope for their own state irrespective of the fact the kurds have been our allies against both Saddam and later Isis so....... If 'we' (as in the western powers) are quite happy to stand by to let our erstwhile allies get oppressed to that degree because their oppressors are more useful to us, the palestinians should probably already count themselves lucky that the US cares enough to not lose face too obviously and have prevented the Israelis from doing what they would otherwise have....

[M1AGM]

youngsyr said:

Presumably because another genocidal death cult would spring up in their place?

You’re the ones who believe the land was given to the jews by God so its ok to take it. Bit culty wouldnt you say? And a bit genocidal, full house.

[youngsyr]

M1AGM said:

youngsyr said:

Presumably because another genocidal death cult would spring up in their place?

You’re the ones who believe the land was given to the jews by God so its ok to take it. Bit culty wouldnt you say? And a bit genocidal, full house.

Pretty bizarre claim, as I've never said that. Truth doesn't seem to bother you though.

[M1AGM]

youngsyr said:

M1AGM said:

youngsyr said:

Presumably because another genocidal death cult would spring up in their place?

You’re the ones who believe the land was given to the jews by God so its ok to take it. Bit culty wouldnt you say? And a bit genocidal, full house.

Pretty bizarre claim, as I've never said that. Truth doesn't seem to bother you though.

If you don’t believe that then why do you believe Israel is justified taking land it does not legally own without repercussions. Why is one a cult and the other not?

[M1AGM]

Gaza starvation could amount to war crime, UN human rights chief tells BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68679...

[F1GTRUeno]

youngsyr said:

So what exactly are you saying they should have done?

Gone knocking door to door, lost umpteen thousands of IDF members in ambushes and IED booby traps and perhaps recovered a few hostages and Hamas soldiers, only then to withdraw back to Israel and the status quo?

That's your solution?

As I said, brilliant. Well done.

So because you don't like other options it's completely fine to completely decimate a group of people and commit genocide, brilliant, well done.

[s1962a]

M1AGM said:

Gaza starvation could amount to war crime, UN human rights chief tells BBC

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68679...

Nothing to see here. Israel is allowing all the aid through - it's Hamas that is not distributing it.

The lorries parked up at the border waiting to get through are just a ploy by Hamas to make Israel look bad.

There is no hunger crisis in Gaza and the Israel military are not to blame in any way. Any crticism of Israel could be deemed anti semitic.

The commercial port of Ashdod can't be used to bring aid in because.. err.. it just can't. Lorries can queue up at the border or our allies can airdrop aid.

Israels allies are mistaken when they blame Israel for not looking after the Gaza citizens, and when the UN says there is a hunger crisis and potential war crimes, well thats the UN, who are they anyway to say anything about Israel?


Did I miss anything?

[Electro1980]

s1962a said:

Nothing to see here. Israel is allowing all the aid through - it's Hamas that is not distributing it.

The lorries parked up at the border waiting to get through are just a ploy by Hamas to make Israel look bad.

There is no hunger crisis in Gaza and the Israel military are not to blame in any way. Any crticism of Israel could be deemed anti semitic.

The commercial port of Ashdod can't be used to bring aid in because.. err.. it just can't. Lorries can queue up at the border or our allies can airdrop aid.

Israels allies are mistaken when they blame Israel for not looking after the Gaza citizens, and when the UN says there is a hunger crisis and potential war crimes, well thats the UN, who are they anyway to say anything about Israel?


Did I miss anything?

You missed “anything you can prove the IDF are doing is all Hamas’s fault anyway”.

[Electro1980]

julian987R said:

If anyone is having a laugh it’s Hamas. They are loving all this. At a million killed they might stop laughing but upto then they are lapping up the deaths of their civilians that they brought upon them.

Hamas are not to blame for Israel killing civilians. Even the US is taking that position now, yet people are still willing to deny any culpability on the part of Israel.

[isaldiri]

Electro1980 said:

s1962a said:

Nothing to see here. Israel is allowing all the aid through - it's Hamas that is not distributing it.

The lorries parked up at the border waiting to get through are just a ploy by Hamas to make Israel look bad.

There is no hunger crisis in Gaza and the Israel military are not to blame in any way. Any crticism of Israel could be deemed anti semitic.

The commercial port of Ashdod can't be used to bring aid in because.. err.. it just can't. Lorries can queue up at the border or our allies can airdrop aid.

Israels allies are mistaken when they blame Israel for not looking after the Gaza citizens, and when the UN says there is a hunger crisis and potential war crimes, well thats the UN, who are they anyway to say anything about Israel?


Did I miss anything?

You missed “anything you can prove the IDF are doing is all Hamas’s fault anyway”.

You missed the it's all just hamas combatants getting killed and no one looks like they are in one of the Ethiopian famines so it's clearly not any humanitarian crisis as well....

[Jinx]

Electro1980 said:

Hamas are not to blame for Israel killing civilians. Even the US is taking that position now, yet people are still willing to deny any culpability on the part of Israel.

Hamas are to blame for using civilians as human shields. Hamas are to blame for kicking the hornets nest by barbarically murdering civilians on the 7th October. Hamas are to blame for murdering their fellow Palestinians who happened not to support Hamas. Hamas are to blame for spending aid money on weapons and building military structures under and around civilian structures. Hamas are to blame for taking hostages and not releasing them. Hamas are to blame for deliberately extending this war by not releasing the hostages.

[JJJ.]

s1962a said:

Nothing to see here. Israel is allowing all the aid through - it's Hamas that is not distributing it.

The lorries parked up at the border waiting to get through are just a ploy by Hamas to make Israel look bad.

There is no hunger crisis in Gaza and the Israel military are not to blame in any way. Any crticism of Israel could be deemed anti semitic.

The commercial port of Ashdod can't be used to bring aid in because.. err.. it just can't. Lorries can queue up at the border or our allies can airdrop aid.

Israels allies are mistaken when they blame Israel for not looking after the Gaza citizens, and when the UN says there is a hunger crisis and potential war crimes, well thats the UN, who are they anyway to say anything about Israel?


Did I miss anything?

You certainly can give Eylon Levy a run for his money. Well done as I didn't think it was possible!

[s1962a]

JJJ. said:

s1962a said:

Nothing to see here. Israel is allowing all the aid through - it's Hamas that is not distributing it.

The lorries parked up at the border waiting to get through are just a ploy by Hamas to make Israel look bad.

There is no hunger crisis in Gaza and the Israel military are not to blame in any way. Any crticism of Israel could be deemed anti semitic.

The commercial port of Ashdod can't be used to bring aid in because.. err.. it just can't. Lorries can queue up at the border or our allies can airdrop aid.

Israels allies are mistaken when they blame Israel for not looking after the Gaza citizens, and when the UN says there is a hunger crisis and potential war crimes, well thats the UN, who are they anyway to say anything about Israel?


Did I miss anything?

You certainly can give Eylon Levy a run for his money. Well done as I didn't think it was possible!

Is that the guy that would give interviews in the UK and call people anti semitic for any criticism of Israel? I think he's the one that got sacked because he was caught lying to David Camerons team.