Israel invaded
Discussion
JJJ. said:
The land pre 1948 was Palestine, no such thing as Israel then, never mind the '67 borders.
The Palestinians have every right to object to anything regarding their land.
Their land?The Palestinians have every right to object to anything regarding their land.
How far you want to go?
Or are you stopping there because it suits your narrative?
I'm assuming from your previous posts you're a muslim?
Dagnir said:
I'm assuming from your previous posts you're a muslim?
Wow, I must have hit a nerve.A Zionist getting it wrong again. How could that happen one has to wonder...
The same old, same old!
You actually think one has to have an affiliation or some sort link of with the oppressed Palestinians to support them...
On that note it's clearly time to ignore you're posts.
Edited by JJJ. on Thursday 18th April 19:41
JJJ. said:
Oliver Hardy said:
The land in 1967 was never Palestinian, it was Egypt and Jorden, Egypt don't want Gaza back, I am not sure what the position of Jordan is.
but they have always been rejected by the Palestinians
The land pre 1948 was Palestine, no such thing as Israel then, never mind the '67 borders.but they have always been rejected by the Palestinians
The Palestinians have every right to object to anything regarding their land.
Was there a proposal to give the Palestinians as state in 1948 and a few times since bit these proposals have been rejected by them?
Oliver Hardy said:
JJJ. said:
Oliver Hardy said:
The land in 1967 was never Palestinian, it was Egypt and Jorden, Egypt don't want Gaza back, I am not sure what the position of Jordan is.
but they have always been rejected by the Palestinians
The land pre 1948 was Palestine, no such thing as Israel then, never mind the '67 borders.but they have always been rejected by the Palestinians
The Palestinians have every right to object to anything regarding their land.
Was there a proposal to give the Palestinians as state in 1948 and a few times since bit these proposals have been rejected by them?
Here's what happened in 1948. There was no proposals made to the Palestinians, far from it. See below, easier and better to copy & paste.
In the 1948 Palestine war more than 700000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of Mandatory Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled, at first by Zionist paramilitaries,[a] and after the establishment of the Israel, by its military.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The expulsion and flight was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession, and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba.[10][11][12] Dozens of massacres targeting Arabs were conducted by Israeli military forces and between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed. Village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning.[13][14] Other sites were subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names.[15]
The precise number of Palestinian refugees, many of whom settled in Palestinian refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute.[16] Around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (half of the Arab total population of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[17][18] About 250000–300000 Palestinians fled or were expelled during the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, before the termination of the British Mandate on May 14 1948. The desire to prevent the collapse of the Palestinians and to avoid more refugees were some of the reasons for the entry of the Arab League into the country, which began the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.[19]
The causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus are also a subject of fundamental disagreement among historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre,[20]: 239–240 which caused many to leave out of panic, direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities, the demoralizing impact of wealthier classes fleeing,[21] the typhoid epidemic in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning,[22] collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders,[23][24] and a disinclination to live under Jewish control.[25][26]
Later, a series of land and property laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented Arabs who had left from returning to their homes or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[27][28] The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[29][14][30] while others dispute this charge.[31][32][33] Nevertheless, the existence of the so-called Law of Return allowing for immigration and naturalization of any Jewish person and their family to Israel, while a Palestinian right of return has been denied, has been cited as an evidence for the charge that Israel practices apartheid.[34][35]
andymadmak said:
Unreal said:
If they surrendered and handed over the hostages then there would be international pressure for rebuilding, a two state solution, free elections, settler withdrawal etc. But Hamas would not be in charge so it won't happen.
Agreed, Netanyahu would have to go as well, which might just happen courtesy of the next election. Is there no one on the Palestinian side that could grasp the likely opportunity this could bring? (genuine question)JJJ. said:
Just one example. The British census in 1922 of Palestine. Arabs 90%, Jews 10 percent.
Here's what happened in 1948. There was no proposals made to the Palestinians, far from it. See below, easier and better to copy & paste.
In the 1948 Palestine war more than 700000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of Mandatory Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled, at first by Zionist paramilitaries,[a] and after the establishment of the Israel, by its military.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The expulsion and flight was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession, and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba.[10][11][12] Dozens of massacres targeting Arabs were conducted by Israeli military forces and between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed. Village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning.[13][14] Other sites were subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names.[15]
The precise number of Palestinian refugees, many of whom settled in Palestinian refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute.[16] Around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (half of the Arab total population of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[17][18] About 250000–300000 Palestinians fled or were expelled during the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, before the termination of the British Mandate on May 14 1948. The desire to prevent the collapse of the Palestinians and to avoid more refugees were some of the reasons for the entry of the Arab League into the country, which began the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.[19]
The causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus are also a subject of fundamental disagreement among historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre,[20]:?239–240? which caused many to leave out of panic, direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities, the demoralizing impact of wealthier classes fleeing,[21] the typhoid epidemic in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning,[22] collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders,[23][24] and a disinclination to live under Jewish control.[25][26]
Later, a series of land and property laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented Arabs who had left from returning to their homes or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[27][28] The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[29][14][30] while others dispute this charge.[31][32][33] Nevertheless, the existence of the so-called Law of Return allowing for immigration and naturalization of any Jewish person and their family to Israel, while a Palestinian right of return has been denied, has been cited as an evidence for the charge that Israel practices apartheid.[34][35]
I have no idea what percentage of these that left were forced out and these that fled/chose to leave, but 20% of the population after 1948 remained Muslim, so I am guessing most chose not to live under Israeli rule?Here's what happened in 1948. There was no proposals made to the Palestinians, far from it. See below, easier and better to copy & paste.
In the 1948 Palestine war more than 700000 Palestinian Arabs – about half of Mandatory Palestine's Arab population – fled from their homes or were expelled, at first by Zionist paramilitaries,[a] and after the establishment of the Israel, by its military.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The expulsion and flight was a central component of the fracturing, dispossession, and displacement of Palestinian society, known as the Nakba.[10][11][12] Dozens of massacres targeting Arabs were conducted by Israeli military forces and between 400 and 600 Palestinian villages were destroyed. Village wells were poisoned in a biological warfare programme and properties were looted to prevent Palestinian refugees from returning.[13][14] Other sites were subject to Hebraization of Palestinian place names.[15]
The precise number of Palestinian refugees, many of whom settled in Palestinian refugee camps in neighboring states, is a matter of dispute.[16] Around 80 percent of the Arab inhabitants of what became Israel (half of the Arab total population of Mandatory Palestine) left or were expelled from their homes.[17][18] About 250000–300000 Palestinians fled or were expelled during the 1947–1948 civil war in Mandatory Palestine, before the termination of the British Mandate on May 14 1948. The desire to prevent the collapse of the Palestinians and to avoid more refugees were some of the reasons for the entry of the Arab League into the country, which began the 1948 Arab–Israeli War.[19]
The causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus are also a subject of fundamental disagreement among historians. Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre,[20]:?239–240? which caused many to leave out of panic, direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities, the demoralizing impact of wealthier classes fleeing,[21] the typhoid epidemic in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning,[22] collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders,[23][24] and a disinclination to live under Jewish control.[25][26]
Later, a series of land and property laws passed by the first Israeli government prevented Arabs who had left from returning to their homes or claiming their property. They and many of their descendants remain refugees.[27][28] The expulsion of the Palestinians has since been described by some historians as ethnic cleansing,[29][14][30] while others dispute this charge.[31][32][33] Nevertheless, the existence of the so-called Law of Return allowing for immigration and naturalization of any Jewish person and their family to Israel, while a Palestinian right of return has been denied, has been cited as an evidence for the charge that Israel practices apartheid.[34][35]
What about the Jews who were forced out of Muslim countries, who presume ended up in Israel?
Israel is a tiny country, 0.1% of the Middle East, a lot of it was dessert,
The map you downloaded includes Jordan, should Jordan not exist? The problem seems to be the Israelis are Jewish/white not Muslim/Arabs
Supporters of land stealing trying to rewrite history live by the mantra ‘say a lie enough times and it just become true ‘.
Meanwhile Israel expanding their illegal settlements at record levels and yesterday US vetoed the recognition of a Palestinian state in the UN while the majority of the world support it..
The ‘supporting’ of a two state solution is an absolute farce by US and Israel although makes sense as they are the ones supplying and dropping the bombs that’s killing and displacing thousands from their homes
Meanwhile Israel expanding their illegal settlements at record levels and yesterday US vetoed the recognition of a Palestinian state in the UN while the majority of the world support it..
The ‘supporting’ of a two state solution is an absolute farce by US and Israel although makes sense as they are the ones supplying and dropping the bombs that’s killing and displacing thousands from their homes
JJJ. said:
Dagnir said:
I'm assuming from your previous posts you're a muslim?
Wow, I must have hit a nerve.A Zionist getting it wrong again. How could that happen one has to wonder...
The same old, same old!
You actually think one has to have an affiliation or some sort link of with the oppressed Palestinians to support them...
On that note it's clearly time to ignore you're posts.
Edited by JJJ. on Thursday 18th April 19:41
And why are you calling me a zionist you nutter?!
...and what was I wrong about? I only asked a question.
This is a very strange reply. Ironically I think I touched a nerve for some reason as it doesn't make much sense at all...
JJJ. said:
Wow, I must have hit a nerve.
A Zionist getting it wrong again. How could that happen one has to wonder...
The same old, same old!
You actually think one has to have an affiliation or some sort link of with the oppressed Palestinians to support them...
On that note it's clearly time to ignore you're posts.
Do I think that? Is that what I said?A Zionist getting it wrong again. How could that happen one has to wonder...
The same old, same old!
You actually think one has to have an affiliation or some sort link of with the oppressed Palestinians to support them...
On that note it's clearly time to ignore you're posts.
Edited by JJJ. on Thursday 18th April 19:41
You're lashing out with nonsense....I really did hit a nerve eh.
Given your tantrum at the question, plus the way you've avoided answering it....I'm going to conclude that I was correct and your are indeed a muslim. Makes sense given the irrationality and devotion behind your posts.
+1 For perception!
Zionist....
Unreal said:
If they surrendered and handed over the hostages then there would be international pressure for rebuilding, a two state solution, free elections, settler withdrawal etc. But Hamas would not be in charge so it won't happen.
Why would there be pressure "now" when there hasn't been any significant pressure put on Israel before? There might be some positive sounding noises and some token gestures but if Israel genuinely wanted a two-state solution then they wouldn't have been covertly supporting Hamas whilst encouraging settlement buildingCountdown said:
Unreal said:
If they surrendered and handed over the hostages then there would be international pressure for rebuilding, a two state solution, free elections, settler withdrawal etc. But Hamas would not be in charge so it won't happen.
Why would there be pressure "now" when there hasn't been any significant pressure put on Israel before? There might be some positive sounding noises and some token gestures but if Israel genuinely wanted a two-state solution then they wouldn't have been covertly supporting Hamas whilst encouraging settlement buildingNRS said:
andymadmak said:
Unreal said:
If they surrendered and handed over the hostages then there would be international pressure for rebuilding, a two state solution, free elections, settler withdrawal etc. But Hamas would not be in charge so it won't happen.
Agreed, Netanyahu would have to go as well, which might just happen courtesy of the next election. Is there no one on the Palestinian side that could grasp the likely opportunity this could bring? (genuine question)It's academic of course. Hamas won't surrender so they'll be battered into oblivion and sadly a lot of Palestinians with them. I can only guess they think world opinion or a friendly state intervention will save them before that happens.
Edited by Unreal on Friday 19th April 12:12
M1AGM said:
Countdown said:
Unreal said:
If they surrendered and handed over the hostages then there would be international pressure for rebuilding, a two state solution, free elections, settler withdrawal etc. But Hamas would not be in charge so it won't happen.
Why would there be pressure "now" when there hasn't been any significant pressure put on Israel before? There might be some positive sounding noises and some token gestures but if Israel genuinely wanted a two-state solution then they wouldn't have been covertly supporting Hamas whilst encouraging settlement buildingUnreal said:
My assumption is that the international pressure would be much greater if Hamas were removed. Who knows. If you have the answer, pop over there and let them know. I can't be bothered to argue about it. It's the future. Anything could happen.
Not arguing just pointing out that it is highly unlikely the Israeli behaviour will change. Only a fool keeps taking the same actions expecting a different outcome. See the west bank.The answer has been well described already many times on this thread, unfortunately history shows there is no desire for peace and a 2 state solution.
Orit Strook- Israel’s Minister of Settlements
‘There is no such thing as a Palestinian people,”
“There will never be a Palestinian State in the land of Israel,” she said. “Every cultured person in the world knows that this land is ours, for the Israeli people and only for us.
This is a govt minister of parties voted for democratically and as they keep stating that they are the ‘peacemakers’
As statements like this a consistently coming out for the the Israeli leadership we consistently see the west bank being taken over and watching Palestinians being killed all over the place.
Yet we have those who still want to defend this and say this government are our allies and apparently ‘nothing to see here’.
‘There is no such thing as a Palestinian people,”
“There will never be a Palestinian State in the land of Israel,” she said. “Every cultured person in the world knows that this land is ours, for the Israeli people and only for us.
This is a govt minister of parties voted for democratically and as they keep stating that they are the ‘peacemakers’
As statements like this a consistently coming out for the the Israeli leadership we consistently see the west bank being taken over and watching Palestinians being killed all over the place.
Yet we have those who still want to defend this and say this government are our allies and apparently ‘nothing to see here’.
NRS said:
andymadmak said:
Unreal said:
If they surrendered and handed over the hostages then there would be international pressure for rebuilding, a two state solution, free elections, settler withdrawal etc. But Hamas would not be in charge so it won't happen.
Agreed, Netanyahu would have to go as well, which might just happen courtesy of the next election. Is there no one on the Palestinian side that could grasp the likely opportunity this could bring? (genuine question)However, Israel is an example of what happens when a small, loud, self-serving minority of extremists hold outsize power in a democracy. Bibi needs the settlers and the crazies votes to maintain his coalition. If the nutters walk away, his government falls (and he goes to prison). As a result, he is in hoc to the crazies.
Combine that with his "only I can save Israel" narcissism that means he will do anything to stay in power, no matter how destructive. Up to and including starting a war.
But look at the voting records - there are about 50% of Israelis who have no truck with him or his ideas.
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