Israel invaded
Discussion
911hope said:
Oliver Hardy said:
maybe they could have been patrolling its own boarders by now and had airports and so on if the Palestinians had not been firing rockets into Israel over the last 20 years.
Seems like quite a simple statement, but it is not a simple conflict. While some may wholeheartedly believe the Palestinians are the only baddies..there are some things to consider.Ever looked at which side is the biggest killer, at any time in the conflict?
Has there ever been a time since the creation of Israel that the Palestinians have been treated well.
Do Palestinians have a justified grievance?
While not ideal Gaza was self governing region and if they got on with building a state instead of firing rockets and building tunnels for fighters and to smuggle arms who knows what might have happened?
Do Palestinians have a justified grievance, yes, do the Israelis have a justifiable Grievance, yes.
Over the years there have been solutions offered to the Palestinians which they have not taken Brutal as it is maybe taking out Hamas is a solution although they should probably be going after Iran who are enablers of the attacks on Israel?
Oliver Hardy said:
taking out Hamas is a solution
They were going to "take out" Hamas by destroying the north and pushing civilians south. Didn't work.They were going to take out Hamas by attacking the south. Didn't work.
They say they want to destroy Hamas by attacking Rafah. Does anyone seriously believe that will work?
Netanyahu knows he will be toast if/when he unleashes his final wave of violence and is fully exposed as having slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians for nothing. Which is presumably why he's now keen to negotiate. That, and the rising tide of anger around the world at his savagery.
Panamax said:
They were going to "take out" Hamas by destroying the north and pushing civilians south. Didn't work.
They were going to take out Hamas by attacking the south. Didn't work.
They say they want to destroy Hamas by attacking Rafah. Does anyone seriously believe that will work?
I'm not sure that this is 100% correct. I think Israels plan all along was to systematically work their way down through Gaza taking out Hamas along the way. Hence Netanyahu's conviction that there are the remaining Hamas battalions in RafahThey were going to take out Hamas by attacking the south. Didn't work.
They say they want to destroy Hamas by attacking Rafah. Does anyone seriously believe that will work?
Panamax said:
Netanyahu knows he will be toast if/when he unleashes his final wave of violence and is fully exposed as having slaughtered tens of thousands of civilians for nothing. Which is presumably why he's now keen to negotiate. That, and the rising tide of anger around the world at his savagery.
I think Netanyahu is feeling the weight of US pressure, but he's not going to buckle right now. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza. Won't go down well with the pro Israeli's and Zionists!
https://youtu.be/gu4OMmoo5mw?si=3MPTZAj2a5iBDZMk
https://youtu.be/gu4OMmoo5mw?si=3MPTZAj2a5iBDZMk
Oliver Hardy said:
911hope said:
Oliver Hardy said:
maybe they could have been patrolling its own boarders by now and had airports and so on if the Palestinians had not been firing rockets into Israel over the last 20 years.
Seems like quite a simple statement, but it is not a simple conflict. While some may wholeheartedly believe the Palestinians are the only baddies..there are some things to consider.Ever looked at which side is the biggest killer, at any time in the conflict?
Has there ever been a time since the creation of Israel that the Palestinians have been treated well.
Do Palestinians have a justified grievance?
While not ideal Gaza was self governing region and if they got on with building a state instead of firing rockets and building tunnels for fighters and to smuggle arms who knows what might have happened?
Do Palestinians have a justified grievance, yes, do the Israelis have a justifiable Grievance, yes.
Over the years there have been solutions offered to the Palestinians which they have not taken Brutal as it is maybe taking out Hamas is a solution although they should probably be going after Iran who are enablers of the attacks on Israel?
It’s pretty messed up.
JJJ. said:
Norman Finkelstein on Gaza. Won't go down well with the pro Israeli's and Zionists!
https://youtu.be/gu4OMmoo5mw?si=3MPTZAj2a5iBDZMk
So you cite a man who, in his own words, "I have no problem saying that I do want to express solidarity with them [Hezbollah]", and called Holocaust denier David Irving (dramatised in the film Denial) ""a very good historian"?https://youtu.be/gu4OMmoo5mw?si=3MPTZAj2a5iBDZMk
Oh, and what about "I have no sympathy for [the staff of Charlie Hebdo]".
Funnily enough, I wouldn't concern myself too much with what he has to say...
Solocle said:
JJJ. said:
Norman Finkelstein on Gaza. Won't go down well with the pro Israeli's and Zionists!
https://youtu.be/gu4OMmoo5mw?si=3MPTZAj2a5iBDZMk
Funnily enough, I wouldn't concern myself too much with what he has to say...https://youtu.be/gu4OMmoo5mw?si=3MPTZAj2a5iBDZMk
Oliver Hardy said:
Once Hamas/Iran has been dealt with, will Israel have to deal with Hezbollah/Lebanon?
They are under attach daily from Hezbollah/Iran from Lebanon.
WTF?They are under attach daily from Hezbollah/Iran from Lebanon.
Iran dealt with? Iran would erase Israel.
Hezbollah is a large and well trained fighting force. They're not Hamas and that is why Israel have not taken on Hezbollah directly, it would be very painful.
JJJ. said:
Found something in the vid you didn't like rather than disagree with obviously.
Didn't even watch it, not worth my time. He's very myopically entrenched in his views.jshell said:
WTF?
Iran dealt with? Iran would erase Israel.
Hezbollah is a large and well trained fighting force. They're not Hamas and that is why Israel have not taken on Hezbollah directly, it would be very painful.
Iran erase Israel? If they could do that, they'd already have tried!Iran dealt with? Iran would erase Israel.
Hezbollah is a large and well trained fighting force. They're not Hamas and that is why Israel have not taken on Hezbollah directly, it would be very painful.
Iran simply don't have the military capability to actually threaten Israel with destruction, and even if they did, such a notion would very quickly go up in nuclear flames.
Do they have capacity to elicit hurt through their proxies, mainly Hezbollah? Undoubtedly.
Israel could elicit serious pain from Iran with standoff attacks, annihilate their nuclear sites.
Could they effect regime change on Iran? I doubt it, at least not without going nuclear.
Edited by Solocle on Friday 3rd May 12:55
Well if we are talking about quotes from people then how about words of Israeli leaders themselves ?
After all these years as anything changed?
Does the evidence in front of you depict who is the coloniser and who is being colonised ?
Ben Gurion- Born in Poland - founding father of Israel
If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.
Moshe Sharett- born in Ukraine - Second Prime Minister of Israel
‘We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it, that governs it by the virtue of its language and savage culture’.
Ze’ev Jabotinsky- born in Ukraine - founder of Irgun - later IDF.
Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonized,” wrote the hawkish Jabotinsky in 1923. “That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing”’.
Just to be clear before the people start crying or getting in a hissy fit - I do believe that people living under occupation have a right to resist as allowed and codified under International Humanitarian Law.
I do NOT think it is acceptable in any shape or form to target civilians, indiscriminately kill innocents, commit atrocities or target peaceful civilians regardless if they are Israeli or Palestinian and those who do perform such acts should be fully held to account. Again applies to both Palestinians and Israelis.
After all these years as anything changed?
Does the evidence in front of you depict who is the coloniser and who is being colonised ?
Ben Gurion- Born in Poland - founding father of Israel
If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.
Moshe Sharett- born in Ukraine - Second Prime Minister of Israel
‘We have forgotten that we have not come to an empty land to inherit it, but we have come to conquer a country from people inhabiting it, that governs it by the virtue of its language and savage culture’.
Ze’ev Jabotinsky- born in Ukraine - founder of Irgun - later IDF.
Every native population in the world resists colonists as long as it has the slightest hope of being able to rid itself of the danger of being colonized,” wrote the hawkish Jabotinsky in 1923. “That is what the Arabs in Palestine are doing”’.
Just to be clear before the people start crying or getting in a hissy fit - I do believe that people living under occupation have a right to resist as allowed and codified under International Humanitarian Law.
I do NOT think it is acceptable in any shape or form to target civilians, indiscriminately kill innocents, commit atrocities or target peaceful civilians regardless if they are Israeli or Palestinian and those who do perform such acts should be fully held to account. Again applies to both Palestinians and Israelis.
fizz47 said:
Ben Gurion- Born in Poland - founding father of Israel
If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.
Worth posting again, especially as it's from the so-called great Ben Gurion.If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.
jshell said:
Hezbollah is a large and well trained fighting force. They're not Hamas and that is why Israel have not taken on Hezbollah directly, it would be very painful.
Israel hasn't taken on Hezbollah because it would have to flatten Lebanon. And then Iran, US and whoever else would get involved. It's not a good scenario in anyone's books.NRS said:
Oliver Hardy said:
911hope said:
Oliver Hardy said:
maybe they could have been patrolling its own boarders by now and had airports and so on if the Palestinians had not been firing rockets into Israel over the last 20 years.
Seems like quite a simple statement, but it is not a simple conflict. While some may wholeheartedly believe the Palestinians are the only baddies..there are some things to consider.Ever looked at which side is the biggest killer, at any time in the conflict?
Has there ever been a time since the creation of Israel that the Palestinians have been treated well.
Do Palestinians have a justified grievance?
While not ideal Gaza was self governing region and if they got on with building a state instead of firing rockets and building tunnels for fighters and to smuggle arms who knows what might have happened?
Do Palestinians have a justified grievance, yes, do the Israelis have a justifiable Grievance, yes.
Over the years there have been solutions offered to the Palestinians which they have not taken Brutal as it is maybe taking out Hamas is a solution although they should probably be going after Iran who are enablers of the attacks on Israel?
It’s pretty messed up.
Hamas was elected by the Palestinians, Israel didn't get them into power.
JJJ. said:
fizz47 said:
Ben Gurion- Born in Poland - founding father of Israel
If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.
Worth posting again, especially as it's from the so-called great Ben Gurion.If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
“Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves … politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves… The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country.
Or could it have been supposedly said in a private conversation with Nachum Goldmann, a personal rival of Ben-Gurion, a quote published many years after conversation supposed to have taken place and after Ben Gurion death so he could not deny it or if it was said in what context
There was no country that existed where Israel is now.
Edited by Oliver Hardy on Saturday 4th May 02:43
I see the mantra ‘repeat a lie enough times and it must come true’ is still going strong.
Meanwhile outside lala land apparently Israel thinks that rules don’t apply to them and should be allowed to carry on starving and killing Palestinians and if called to account then threatening the ICC and wanting to impose collective punishment is the way forward …
Has the ICC been branded anti-Semitic too?
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/01/us-israel-palesti...
ICC also have had to issue a statement against the threats…any guess who is threatening them?
https://x.com/intlcrimcourt/status/178631622968841...
Meanwhile outside lala land apparently Israel thinks that rules don’t apply to them and should be allowed to carry on starving and killing Palestinians and if called to account then threatening the ICC and wanting to impose collective punishment is the way forward …
Has the ICC been branded anti-Semitic too?
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/01/us-israel-palesti...
ICC also have had to issue a statement against the threats…any guess who is threatening them?
https://x.com/intlcrimcourt/status/178631622968841...
fizz47 said:
I see the mantra ‘repeat a lie enough times and it must come true’ is still going strong.
Meanwhile outside lala land apparently Israel thinks that rules don’t apply to them and should be allowed to carry on starving and killing Palestinians and if called to account then threatening the ICC and wanting to impose collective punishment is the way forward …
Has the ICC been branded anti-Semitic too?
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/01/us-israel-palesti...
ICC also have had to issue a statement against the threats…any guess who is threatening them?
https://x.com/intlcrimcourt/status/178631622968841...
Odd, I wonder why they have not issued warrants against the leaders of Hamas. Or China, Russia, Sudan, Myanmar etc, etc.Meanwhile outside lala land apparently Israel thinks that rules don’t apply to them and should be allowed to carry on starving and killing Palestinians and if called to account then threatening the ICC and wanting to impose collective punishment is the way forward …
Has the ICC been branded anti-Semitic too?
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/01/us-israel-palesti...
ICC also have had to issue a statement against the threats…any guess who is threatening them?
https://x.com/intlcrimcourt/status/178631622968841...
Meanwhile, prominent and apparently well respected orthopaedic surgeons are being ‘allowed’ to die in Israeli prisons
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cer3740ddj3o
WTF - they really are mastering the art of plumbing new depths; completely squandering the moral advantage (I fully realise the conflict is perceived as existential but this sort of news sets Israel back decades)
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cer3740ddj3o
WTF - they really are mastering the art of plumbing new depths; completely squandering the moral advantage (I fully realise the conflict is perceived as existential but this sort of news sets Israel back decades)
Look how supporters of collective punishment , Israeli spokespersons, Israeli Ambassadors and a fair few on this thread loved to tout the line that if Hamas agrees to end the hostages then then this finishes tomorrow …
All destroyed by Israel’s own officials and what people have been saying all along ..
"Israel will under no circumstances agree to end the war in a deal to release the hostages"
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-...
It was never about the hostages for Israel but just further destruction and illegal occupation of the Palestinians.
All destroyed by Israel’s own officials and what people have been saying all along ..
"Israel will under no circumstances agree to end the war in a deal to release the hostages"
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-...
It was never about the hostages for Israel but just further destruction and illegal occupation of the Palestinians.
fizz47 said:
Look how supporters of collective punishment , Israeli spokespersons, Israeli Ambassadors and a fair few on this thread loved to tout the line that if Hamas agrees to end the hostages then then this finishes tomorrow …
All destroyed by Israel’s own officials and what people have been saying all along ..
"Israel will under no circumstances agree to end the war in a deal to release the hostages"
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-...
It was never about the hostages for Israel but just further destruction and illegal occupation of the Palestinians.
I said it a long time back in this thread, that hostages were unimportant to the Israeli government. The only mission for the Israeli's is to wipe out the Palestinians in both Gaza and the West Bank. Not to wipe out Hamas as that's considered also impossible by many well seasoned commentators. All destroyed by Israel’s own officials and what people have been saying all along ..
"Israel will under no circumstances agree to end the war in a deal to release the hostages"
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-05-04/ty-...
It was never about the hostages for Israel but just further destruction and illegal occupation of the Palestinians.
Worth posting again, which says it all!
And let's not forget Israeli's long proposed shipping canal from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea and the most practical route is via Gaza!
Came across this on YT, recorded two months ago. Note the comment on Israel handing out exploration licenses in Palestinian maritime waters.
https://youtu.be/wKM3pV2RH4A?si=fvrwp4vGZV3NzIdd
And let's not forget Israeli's long proposed shipping canal from the Red Sea to the Mediterranean Sea and the most practical route is via Gaza!
Came across this on YT, recorded two months ago. Note the comment on Israel handing out exploration licenses in Palestinian maritime waters.
https://youtu.be/wKM3pV2RH4A?si=fvrwp4vGZV3NzIdd
Edited by JJJ. on Sunday 5th May 00:26
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