Policing of pro Palestinian marches
Discussion
Countdown said:
This is a form of lobbying and you don't just stop because "somebody's asked a question". The stuff about "jewish people being afraid to walk the streets" is the latest line of BS in an attempt to get the protests shut down, along with trying to get various things made illegal.
Calling for a cease fire when Hamas are still holding hostages - pointless. Calling for (relatively small amount of) arms exports to Israel - again fairly pointless (won't impact Israel's ability to conduct operations in Gaza). And the Jewish people being afraid to walk the streets on a weekend is a concern to all right minded individuals. March for Hamas to return the hostages - that is a worthy protest.
ZedLeg said:
People are protesting to pressure the government to stop supporting Israel. That’s easily achievable.
And these marches aren't just protests. They're demonstrations - to demonstrate to people in Palestine (and to other people who support that cause elsewhere in the world) that there is support here in the UK. And there are other purposes behind a march as well. For one it forces continuing coverage and discussion, as is happening here and now. Speaking for myself, my political awakening in the runup to the Iraq Invasion in 2003 saw me turn out for the 'million march' in London. I don't think any of us actually thought that Tony Blair and George Bush would think "what? you mean there are that many of them in Hyde Park? Well, better call the whole thing off then!". I certainly didn't. But it's about registering and demonstrating disagreement and taking and demonstrating a stand.
The idea that protests/demos have to clear some sort of bar of effectiveness to be valid or permitted is very odd. It nulls some of the most famous (and, in the long term, transformative) popular movements in history, which were deemed pointless, futile or irrelevant when they started; "Sorry, Lech Walesa, there's no point in protesting about authoritarianism and civil rights - what, you think the Soviet Union are actually going to reform or leave Poland because you walked around with some banners?? Stop clogging up the streets and get back to work!"
[Edit to match ZedLeg's quote to his amended post above]
Edited by 2xChevrons on Monday 11th March 12:37
The protests are pretty pointless in that they will change nothing on the ground. Fair enough if the idea is to show the pals that there are people around the world thinking about them. However, it's the usual story of what retoric is acceptable here in the UK. Some of the chanting & indeed placards are basically racist & need to be dealt with.
Biker 1 said:
The protests are pretty pointless in that they will change nothing on the ground. Fair enough if the idea is to show the pals that there are people around the world thinking about them. However, it's the usual story of what retoric is acceptable here in the UK. Some of the chanting & indeed placards are basically racist & need to be dealt with.
Which chanting have you seen that's racist?President Merkin said:
Not been in here for a bit. Quite the eye opener seeing the fear in a bunch of middle aged white guys,who don't live anywhere near the capital & possessed of questionable spelling ability over a bunch of people walking slowly through London, disagreeing with the systematic, one sided destruction of a captive population.
Are you A) middle-aged and/or B) a white guy by any chance? 
Re the bit in bold, as per usual the nutters spoil it for everyone. If you turn it around and have a march where people are saying "we've got enough people here, close the borders please" no-one bats an eyelid at the suggestion there are going to be some EDF types showing up and causing trouble. There have been some at the marches showing support for Hamas (NOT the Palestinian civilians getting caught up in a terrible conflict that, let's be honest, Hamas started).
Oliver Hardy said:
Stop selling arms to Israel so Hamas and the other groups in the region can eliminate Israel???
Or stop selling arms to a country that repeatedly violates international law, is an occupying force (per international law) and now is on the hook for where there is risk of ‘plausible genocide’ per the ICJ interim remarks.
The current Israeli govt has also made it clear that that they do not want any Palestinians to have their own land so are we that it’s ok to just get rid of the Palestinians?
Oliver Hardy said:
Stop selling arms to Israel so Hamas and the other groups in the region can eliminate Israel???
I wasn't aware that the IDF relied solely on just-in-time shipment of equipment, munitions, platforms and intel from the UK to defend itself...They have their own defence industry and can basically rely on a steady supply of whatever they need - be it materiel or support - from US defence suppliers and the American government.
It's interesting how a lot of people critique the Palestine supporters as "why are they so bothered about something so far away that doesn't affect them?" with those critiques getting stronger the higher up the political chain we get (vis: Palestine flags at Labour conferences, Labour MPs at rallies etc.). But we are already involved and have already chosen a side - Israel is a strategic and political ally in the Middle East and generally enjoys political, diplomatic, military and material support from the UK. As a bulwark against Iran and various groups in Syria that makes eminent sense. But does that have to continue when the IDF goes into war crime mode in (what it deems) its own territory?
As a nation we don't support Hamas because they are - rightly - flagged as a terrorist group. So we have picked a side. We are involved. We don't have to be. We could not provide Israel with materiel or intelligence or targeting info, and limit our role to keeping channels for humanitarian aid open and functional.
fizz47 said:
Oliver Hardy said:
Stop selling arms to Israel so Hamas and the other groups in the region can eliminate Israel???
Or stop selling arms to a country that repeatedly violates international law, is an occupying force (per international law) and now is on the hook for where there is risk of ‘plausible genocide’ per the ICJ interim remarks.
The current Israeli govt has also made it clear that that they do not want any Palestinians to have their own land so are we that it’s ok to just get rid of the Palestinians?
What about the Kurds, why are there not weekly protests against Turkey, should UK stop arms sales to Turkey?
Why are there no protests against Russia?
PS if what is being reported is true, then the IDF is going why over the top, but if they did not have arms they would be slaughtered by Hamas/Iran.
Edited by Oliver Hardy on Monday 11th March 13:50
Oliver Hardy said:
Why are there no protests against Russia?
"What do we want?" "For the West to do exactly what it's doing!"
"When do we want it?"
"As it has been for the past two years!"
Yes, there could be demonstrations for the purpose of just sticking it to Russia and/or showing solidarity with Ukraine and other border countries. Do enough people feel that strongly about it to do so, though?
It would be foolish to deny that Israel/Palestine is a particularly charged issue - politically, culturally, religiously etc. It's a nexus for all sorts of wider issues be that imperialism, nationalism, ethnic identity, human rights, genocide, the armaments industry, religion, religious fundamentalism, democracy and so on and on.
2xChevrons said:
Oliver Hardy said:
Stop selling arms to Israel so Hamas and the other groups in the region can eliminate Israel???
I wasn't aware that the IDF relied solely on just-in-time shipment of equipment, munitions, platforms and intel from the UK to defend itself...They have their own defence industry and can basically rely on a steady supply of whatever they need - be it materiel or support - from US defence suppliers and the American government.
It's interesting how a lot of people critique the Palestine supporters as "why are they so bothered about something so far away that doesn't affect them?" with those critiques getting stronger the higher up the political chain we get (vis: Palestine flags at Labour conferences, Labour MPs at rallies etc.). But we are already involved and have already chosen a side - Israel is a strategic and political ally in the Middle East and generally enjoys political, diplomatic, military and material support from the UK. As a bulwark against Iran and various groups in Syria that makes eminent sense. But does that have to continue when the IDF goes into war crime mode in (what it deems) its own territory?
As a nation we don't support Hamas because they are - rightly - flagged as a terrorist group. So we have picked a side. We are involved. We don't have to be. We could not provide Israel with materiel or intelligence or targeting info, and limit our role to keeping channels for humanitarian aid open and functional.
Unreal said:
We have picked a side and when people don't like the government's choice we are told that every five years we can vote to let our feelings be known. In the meantime, my understanding is that we have to live with the choices governments make on our behalf.
So demonstrations, protests, campaigns etc. are not only pointless but apparently illegitimate? If a government does something you disagree with then just shut up and wait for election time? That's not really democracy, is it? It shouldn't be something that only happens at five-year intervals on the basis of people voting for one person to represent their area nationally. It should be - and really is - something that happens continually at every level. If it's not then it's not in the slightest bit meaningful, and smacks of banana republics where El Presidente graciously allows the people to vote every now and then but they'd better keep quiet and do what they're told in between.
But then (and this is relevant to 'policing pro Palestinian Marches') the government's Commissioner for Countering Extremism is saying things like "the government should move faster, be bolder and be willing to accept higher legal risk if it means implementing policies that keep us safer.".
Are ULEZ marches ok? What about the cutting down of ULEZ cameras as a protest?
And Just Stop Oil protests that are disruptive? Are they ok?
Animal rights protests outside of companies?
Just checking what is considered ok and what is not in your view.
For me personally ULEZ and JSO marches verge on criminality and that should be dealt with by the police, but they have every democratic right to hold them.
And Just Stop Oil protests that are disruptive? Are they ok?
Animal rights protests outside of companies?
Just checking what is considered ok and what is not in your view.
For me personally ULEZ and JSO marches verge on criminality and that should be dealt with by the police, but they have every democratic right to hold them.
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