Taxes and motivation?
Discussion
browngt3 said:
fflump said:
It's rather less "liberating" if you value freedom of speech, workers rights, gay rights, democracy.
Guess your implying we have those here in the UK? Granted there's plenty of the middle two, but freedom of speech and democracy? Really?Likewise freedom of speech. I could happily go into London and stand in front of Parliament holding a banner proclaiming that the government is terrible. In fact there is probably someone there right now doing that very thing. I would very much not want to do that in Beijing or Moscow. Our freedom of speech is under attack from certain parts of government, as are workers rights, but that's where the democracy bit comes in as we will probably see a change of government in less than 12 months.
Edited by murphyaj on Sunday 21st January 10:40
I’ve lived in the UK my whole life and have paid huge amounts into ‘the system’ - but feel we’ve reached a tipping point in terms of it being the best place to spend the next 30-40 years.
My priorities were safety, taxes and lifestyle in that order. Dubai isn’t perfect and neither is the south of France - but they are both better than London - for me at least.
Not everyone can up sticks and move their family / business but I could and did and once you’ve not paid tax, it’s rather difficult to imagine coming back.
Each to their own of course and seeing the Tories talk about ‘tax cuts’ ahead of the election when they were not possible when the UK needed them post Covid shows how stupid the elected officials think we all are.
Only my 2p worth
My priorities were safety, taxes and lifestyle in that order. Dubai isn’t perfect and neither is the south of France - but they are both better than London - for me at least.
Not everyone can up sticks and move their family / business but I could and did and once you’ve not paid tax, it’s rather difficult to imagine coming back.
Each to their own of course and seeing the Tories talk about ‘tax cuts’ ahead of the election when they were not possible when the UK needed them post Covid shows how stupid the elected officials think we all are.
Only my 2p worth
browngt3 said:
fflump said:
It's rather less "liberating" if you value freedom of speech, workers rights, gay rights, democracy.
Guess your implying we have those here in the UK? Granted there's plenty of the middle two, but freedom of speech and democracy? Really?This should not come as a surprise to you. If it does then speak to people from countries that have neither of these things which will put your freedoms in perspective.
murphyaj said:
in 2019 nearly every adult in my constituency had the chance to go down to a polling station, or post in a ballot, to say who they wanted to represent us in government. The person that most people wanted has sat in parliament since then. Later this year we will get the same chance, and the same thing will happen - almost certainly with a different result. So yes we do have democracy. You might have criticism of how it is organised, and might not like the results, but we have it. Our democracy could be improved, and first past the post is a pretty crappy system, but pretending western countries are not democratic is the kind of argument beloved by dictators and benefits nobody.
Likewise freedom of speech. I could happily go into London and stand in front of Parliament holding a banner proclaiming that the government is terrible. In fact there is probably someone there right now doing that very thing. I would very much not want to do that in Beijing or Moscow. Our freedom of speech is under attack from certain parts of government, as are workers rights, but that's where the democracy bit comes in as we will probably see a change of government in less than 12 months.
Well, if freedom of speech to you is being able to criticise the government, or more accurately, the so-called elected political party then, yes, we have it. However, try criticising certain other groups in society and see what happens. Particularly if you work for a corporation or belong to a public institution.Likewise freedom of speech. I could happily go into London and stand in front of Parliament holding a banner proclaiming that the government is terrible. In fact there is probably someone there right now doing that very thing. I would very much not want to do that in Beijing or Moscow. Our freedom of speech is under attack from certain parts of government, as are workers rights, but that's where the democracy bit comes in as we will probably see a change of government in less than 12 months.
Edited by murphyaj on Sunday 21st January 10:40
Yes, you can hold a banner in front of parliament stating the government is terrible. However, try putting something else on it that's 'off message' and see what happens.
I have spent a lot of time in Moscow in the past and I can tell you people talk more openly and freely than here. Indeed, they will even criticise their government!
fflump said:
browngt3 said:
fflump said:
It's rather less "liberating" if you value freedom of speech, workers rights, gay rights, democracy.
Guess your implying we have those here in the UK? Granted there's plenty of the middle two, but freedom of speech and democracy? Really?This should not come as a surprise to you. If it does then speak to people from countries that have neither of these things which will put your freedoms in perspective.
And yes, for perspective, I have spoken to many foreigners. Some of which, we are told, do not hail from the 'free world'!
browngt3 said:
Well, if freedom of speech to you is being able to criticise the government, or more accurately, the so-called elected political party then, yes, we have it. However, try criticising certain other groups in society and see what happens. Particularly if you work for a corporation or belong to a public institution.
Yes, you can hold a banner in front of parliament stating the government is terrible. However, try putting something else on it that's 'off message' and see what happens.
I have spent a lot of time in Moscow in the past and I can tell you people talk more openly and freely than here. Indeed, they will even criticise their government!
You have to laugh really, as you say we can protest about anything we want as long as it's towing the line. Stand in front of Parliament with a sign saying 'Men in dresses aren't Women' and see how that goes.Yes, you can hold a banner in front of parliament stating the government is terrible. However, try putting something else on it that's 'off message' and see what happens.
I have spent a lot of time in Moscow in the past and I can tell you people talk more openly and freely than here. Indeed, they will even criticise their government!
I've just paid 350 grand cash for my umpteenth decent car and I'm ready for the absolute shafting I'm going to get in my next years Tax bill. But at least we still can buy cars like that, if you're young right now it isn't going to matter how motivated you are by the time you've worked hard enough to afford these things you aren't going to be allowed to own them.
I won't be leaving the country while I'm still working because I need London for my business but f
k me have I paid for the privilege!br d said:
You have to laugh really, as you say we can protest about anything we want as long as it's towing the line. Stand in front of Parliament with a sign saying 'Men in dresses aren't Women' and see how that goes.
I've just paid 350 grand cash for my umpteenth decent car and I'm ready for the absolute shafting I'm going to get in my next years Tax bill. But at least we still can buy cars like that, if you're young right now it isn't going to matter how motivated you are by the time you've worked hard enough to afford these things you aren't going to be allowed to own them.
I won't be leaving the country while I'm still working because I need London for my business but fk me have I paid for the privilege!
If you’ve drawn all that out your business to pay cash then you deserve a tax shafting. That’s just poor money management. I've just paid 350 grand cash for my umpteenth decent car and I'm ready for the absolute shafting I'm going to get in my next years Tax bill. But at least we still can buy cars like that, if you're young right now it isn't going to matter how motivated you are by the time you've worked hard enough to afford these things you aren't going to be allowed to own them.
I won't be leaving the country while I'm still working because I need London for my business but f
k me have I paid for the privilege!Drl22 said:
If you’ve drawn all that out your business to pay cash then you deserve a tax shafting. That’s just poor money management.
I'm with Brad on this. I never borrow personally against wasting assets, even if there is indeed a tax implication. You're right that borrowing would reduce the tax cost per annum, but you would be handing someone a chunk of additional cash, and it wouldn't actually be your car (or, I suppose, it might be your car but it would be even less your house).Current levels of taxation for business owners in the UK are punitive, though. Like many I shan't be sticking around once both my kids have left home, especially with how spectacularly the money I contribute is wasted and the need to pay separately for many supposedly state-funded services if you actually want something to happen this decade or indeed at all. Of course it's partly about funding those services for, e.g., my employees but frankly I'd rather pay their school fees and health insurance than watch my taxes and theirs get p*ssed away. Sadly, neither are tax-deductible (they definitely should be) so that's a non-starter.
I do get moderately enraged when seeing all the crapulousness perpetrated by the sink of vileness that is TFL and the toxic self-aggrandising midget while I pay through the nose to live in this increasingly dysfunctional city. And ditto with knobs on for the people's republic of Haringey. But at least some tiny fraction of my actual primary taxation is going to pay to replace the superannuated weapons systems we're palming off on the Ukrainians, so there's that.
964Cup said:
I'm with Brad on this. I never borrow personally against wasting assets, even if there is indeed a tax implication. You're right that borrowing would reduce the tax cost per annum, but you would be handing someone a chunk of additional cash, and it wouldn't actually be your car (or, I suppose, it might be your car but it would be even less your house).
Current levels of taxation for business owners in the UK are punitive, though. Like many I shan't be sticking around once both my kids have left home, especially with how spectacularly the money I contribute is wasted and the need to pay separately for many supposedly state-funded services if you actually want something to happen this decade or indeed at all. Of course it's partly about funding those services for, e.g., my employees but frankly I'd rather pay their school fees and health insurance than watch my taxes and theirs get p*ssed away. Sadly, neither are tax-deductible (they definitely should be) so that's a non-starter.
I do get moderately enraged when seeing all the crapulousness perpetrated by the sink of vileness that is TFL and the toxic self-aggrandising midget while I pay through the nose to live in this increasingly dysfunctional city. And ditto with knobs on for the people's republic of Haringey. But at least some tiny fraction of my actual primary taxation is going to pay to replace the superannuated weapons systems we're palming off on the Ukrainians, so there's that.
If only I had your eloquence and erudition mate, perfectly expressed.Current levels of taxation for business owners in the UK are punitive, though. Like many I shan't be sticking around once both my kids have left home, especially with how spectacularly the money I contribute is wasted and the need to pay separately for many supposedly state-funded services if you actually want something to happen this decade or indeed at all. Of course it's partly about funding those services for, e.g., my employees but frankly I'd rather pay their school fees and health insurance than watch my taxes and theirs get p*ssed away. Sadly, neither are tax-deductible (they definitely should be) so that's a non-starter.
I do get moderately enraged when seeing all the crapulousness perpetrated by the sink of vileness that is TFL and the toxic self-aggrandising midget while I pay through the nose to live in this increasingly dysfunctional city. And ditto with knobs on for the people's republic of Haringey. But at least some tiny fraction of my actual primary taxation is going to pay to replace the superannuated weapons systems we're palming off on the Ukrainians, so there's that.
750 thread for an update.
br d said:
browngt3 said:
Well, if freedom of speech to you is being able to criticise the government, or more accurately, the so-called elected political party then, yes, we have it. However, try criticising certain other groups in society and see what happens. Particularly if you work for a corporation or belong to a public institution.
Yes, you can hold a banner in front of parliament stating the government is terrible. However, try putting something else on it that's 'off message' and see what happens.
I have spent a lot of time in Moscow in the past and I can tell you people talk more openly and freely than here. Indeed, they will even criticise their government!
You have to laugh really, as you say we can protest about anything we want as long as it's towing the line. Stand in front of Parliament with a sign saying 'Men in dresses aren't Women' and see how that goes.Yes, you can hold a banner in front of parliament stating the government is terrible. However, try putting something else on it that's 'off message' and see what happens.
I have spent a lot of time in Moscow in the past and I can tell you people talk more openly and freely than here. Indeed, they will even criticise their government!
I've just paid 350 grand cash for my umpteenth decent car and I'm ready for the absolute shafting I'm going to get in my next years Tax bill. But at least we still can buy cars like that, if you're young right now it isn't going to matter how motivated you are by the time you've worked hard enough to afford these things you aren't going to be allowed to own them.
I won't be leaving the country while I'm still working because I need London for my business but f
k me have I paid for the privilege!borcy said:
Reading this makes me think Britain is no1 for levels of taxation but aren't we about mid table overall for level of taxation?
NoIn the USA off the top of my head you can set against your tax bill, things like mortgage interest, childcare costs, and vehicle costs. You get taxed more like a business with deductibles. For most people who work that'd be a huge saving.
Equally the levels at which rates come in are vastly higher.
Lastly there's 0% tax on the first $10m on shares you've owned for more than 5 yrs, encouraging a more entrepreneurial, aspirational country.
State tax wise many are very low- texas, florida, nevada etc all of whom are seeing huge movement too.
kbf1981 said:
borcy said:
Reading this makes me think Britain is no1 for levels of taxation but aren't we about mid table overall for level of taxation?
NoIn the USA off the top of my head you can set against your tax bill, things like mortgage interest, childcare costs, and vehicle costs. You get taxed more like a business with deductibles. For most people who work that'd be a huge saving.
Equally the levels at which rates come in are vastly higher.
Lastly there's 0% tax on the first $10m on shares you've owned for more than 5 yrs, encouraging a more entrepreneurial, aspirational country.
State tax wise many are very low- texas, florida, nevada etc all of whom are seeing huge movement too.
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how...
The uk looks about mid table
Edited by borcy on Sunday 21st January 20:23
borcy said:
kbf1981 said:
borcy said:
Reading this makes me think Britain is no1 for levels of taxation but aren't we about mid table overall for level of taxation?
NoIn the USA off the top of my head you can set against your tax bill, things like mortgage interest, childcare costs, and vehicle costs. You get taxed more like a business with deductibles. For most people who work that'd be a huge saving.
Equally the levels at which rates come in are vastly higher.
Lastly there's 0% tax on the first $10m on shares you've owned for more than 5 yrs, encouraging a more entrepreneurial, aspirational country.
State tax wise many are very low- texas, florida, nevada etc all of whom are seeing huge movement too.
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how...
The uk looks about mid table
Edited by borcy on Sunday 21st January 20:23
Fact is it discourages work. Why bother? In fact that's why there's so many lifestyle businesses in the UK. It's bloody hard growing a business, most people who succeed get to a comfortable level and stop, because the juice to them isn't worth the squeeze to push beyond that - maybe because 60% of the juice is taken on the first pass? We could build global companies but most entrepreneurs don't, they get to a comfortable level then stop. In the USA there's a "lets go global/get really big" attitude that means their economy always bounces back fastest.
I literally meet people who earn 60k for example, who aren't that bothered about earning more, because "it all goes in tax". Why do more hours when 8am-1pm is just paying tax?
No employer would motivate their employees by saying "work harder, we'll take most of it, but none of the risk or effort, and there'll be zero recognition beyond some snotty comments"
That speech wouldn't work. How do you motivate your employees? Recognition, respect, support, and a bloody good reward structure.
As a previous poster said a 20% flat tax on everything would probably raise the same amount and mean more spending in the economy and less people and companies leaving for other shores. No major usa company pays tax in the uk and the solution is to reduce complexity. A 20% flat tax would be attractive globally and very cheap to administer, collect and hard to avoid.
The only reason it's not here is because politicians like to punish success - just like when you start a business everyone supports you, but when it actually works a lot don't like it, that's uk govt policy now. Saying "go on son" from one side of its mouth then, "posh t
t" the other if it works.Edited by kbf1981 on Sunday 21st January 21:14
kbf1981 said:
Mid table so it's cool then - room full of 20-30st guys and the 25th stone ones are healthy because they're mid table.
Fact is it discourages work. Why bother? In fact that's why there's so many lifestyle businesses in the UK. It's bloody hard growing a business, most people who succeed get to a comfortable level and stop, because the juice to them isn't worth the squeeze to push beyond that - maybe because 60% of the juice is taken on the first pass? We could build global companies but most entrepreneurs don't, they get to a comfortable level then stop. In the USA there's a "lets go global/get really big" attitude that means their economy always bounces back fastest.
I literally meet people who earn 60k for example, who aren't that bothered about earning more, because "it all goes in tax". Why do more hours when 8am-1pm is just paying tax?
No employer would motivate their employees by saying "work harder, we'll take most of it, but none of the risk or effort, and there'll be zero recognition beyond some snotty comments"
That speech wouldn't work. How do you motivate your employees? Recognition, respect, support, and a bloody good reward structure.
As a previous poster said a 20% flat tax on everything would probably raise the same amount and mean more spending in the economy and less people and companies leaving for other shores. No major usa company pays tax in the uk and the solution is to reduce complexity. A 20% flat tax would be attractive globally and very cheap to administer, collect and hard to avoid.
The only reason it's not here is because politicians like to punish success - just like when you start a business everyone supports you, but when it actually works a lot don't like it, that's uk govt policy now. Saying "go on son" from one side of its mouth then, "posh tt" the other if it works.
I was wondering about other countries with much higher taxes, they seem to do ok. France, Scandinavia etc does no one get well off in those countries. Fairly sure they do. They must built companies, have motivated employees etc. Fact is it discourages work. Why bother? In fact that's why there's so many lifestyle businesses in the UK. It's bloody hard growing a business, most people who succeed get to a comfortable level and stop, because the juice to them isn't worth the squeeze to push beyond that - maybe because 60% of the juice is taken on the first pass? We could build global companies but most entrepreneurs don't, they get to a comfortable level then stop. In the USA there's a "lets go global/get really big" attitude that means their economy always bounces back fastest.
I literally meet people who earn 60k for example, who aren't that bothered about earning more, because "it all goes in tax". Why do more hours when 8am-1pm is just paying tax?
No employer would motivate their employees by saying "work harder, we'll take most of it, but none of the risk or effort, and there'll be zero recognition beyond some snotty comments"
That speech wouldn't work. How do you motivate your employees? Recognition, respect, support, and a bloody good reward structure.
As a previous poster said a 20% flat tax on everything would probably raise the same amount and mean more spending in the economy and less people and companies leaving for other shores. No major usa company pays tax in the uk and the solution is to reduce complexity. A 20% flat tax would be attractive globally and very cheap to administer, collect and hard to avoid.
The only reason it's not here is because politicians like to punish success - just like when you start a business everyone supports you, but when it actually works a lot don't like it, that's uk govt policy now. Saying "go on son" from one side of its mouth then, "posh t
t" the other if it works.Edited by kbf1981 on Sunday 21st January 21:14
borcy said:
I was wondering about other countries with much higher taxes, they seem to do ok. France, Scandinavia etc does no one get well off in those countries. Fairly sure they do. They must built companies, have motivated employees etc.
France isn't terribly good at this. The state is a much bigger part of the total picture; mind you, they did for what it's worth at one time have a rule that your total (direct) tax bill could never exceed 50% of your income, but this is now gone, I believe. Scandinavia has been better because at least their state works, so while you pay high taxes you get a functioning welfare state, education and health system, meaning that you have happier, more productive employees - in theory at least. They didn't have our workforce non-participation problem. All of this has now fallen apart in Sweden, and Norway's new wealth tax has the richest leaving in numbers. The Laffer curve is real, folks, for all that it was originally scribbled on the back of an envelope.And yes, millionaire moaning about tax. But not from Dubai, which is rather the point. I won't be moving to Dubai (yech) or to Monaco (also yech) but I will be moving somewhere where the government takes less than half of everything I generate and where I get to keep more of the ultimate value that I have created. It will also be somewhere where the taxes I do pay (30% of all income in-country; I'm not trying to evade my responsibilities) will make rather more of a difference to the wellbeing of the population. This country's attitude to people who make money and pay taxes (as demonstrated by the "peak PH" comment) is so absurdly rooted in class envy and resentment that we will never fix our problems.
I just hope Rayner is prevented from stabbing Starmer in the back long enough for me to get out before the hard left regain control of the Labour party. Given the monumental cock-ups perpetrated by CMD, May, Boris and Truss, and the ineffectiveness of wishy-Rishi, we're in for a decade at least of trot agitation behind the scenes, and it will be no place to try to run a business and create wealth and employment. Or, frankly, enjoyment, once the watermelons really get their teeth into power.
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