Teacher fired for not using preferred pronouns!

[Gecko1978]

bhstewie said:

popeyewhite said:

Ah I didn't realise the tribunal found against him. What were the closing comments?

I didn't say the tribunal.

Read the article(s).

If you really think that was professional behaviour fair enough.

was his case rejected I only see a link for the news article where his collegues states it was his harrasment that got him sacked

[bitchstewie]

Presume it's ongoing.

[biggbn]

popeyewhite said:

bhstewie said:

You're quite right it isn't which is why he's now looking for a job.

Don't think you've thought that one through. Surely you don't think the interruption in learning to the kids he teaches at school is a good thing?

The problem surely is that he feels alright about acting on his views whilst ignoring, and being critical of those of another. It is sadly typical of many, he is complaining about being sacked for exercising his right to free speech and thought whilst ignoring those of someone he doesn't agree with.

These were quoted as being his feelings-

'I believe the student was immersed in a cult. I believe transgender ideology is a cult and should not be encouraged and supported in schools."

Mr Lister denied he held "extreme" views after agreeing he believed that if a parent supported their child's wish to transition, they should be "investigated for Munchausen's by proxy'

Now, he is quite entitled to have those feelings and beliefs but it seems he has allowed them to influence the impartiality he should practice as a teacher. Also worth remembering, this is not an under 16 we are speaking about. Sad case really. There is the potential that both parties involved need some professional help and advice.

[turbobloke]

biggbn said:

popeyewhite said:

bhstewie said:

You're quite right it isn't which is why he's now looking for a job.

Don't think you've thought that one through. Surely you don't think the interruption in learning to the kids he teaches at school is a good thing?

The problem surely is that he feels alright about acting on his views whilst ignoring, and being critical of those of another. It is sadly typical of many, he is complaining about being sacked for exercising his right to free speech and thought whilst ignoring those of someone he doesn't agree with.

These were quoted as being his feelings-

'I believe the student was immersed in a cult. I believe transgender ideology is a cult and should not be encouraged and supported in schools."

Mr Lister denied he held "extreme" views after agreeing he believed that if a parent supported their child's wish to transition, they should be "investigated for Munchausen's by proxy'

Now, he is quite entitled to have those feelings and beliefs but it seems he has allowed them to influence the impartiality he should practice as a teacher.

ISWYM biggmn. I'd add that schools aren't places where pupils call the shots, rightly so. Input to governance issues via student voice doesn't go that far, and statutory duties to safeguard and promote the welfare of all children are in the hands of people above school leaving age as you will know. On that basis it's not a matter of impartiality with safeguarding issues by accepting what pupils say and do about gender, surely it's how it's dealt with in individual circumstances, with pupil welfare and wellbeing of the utmost importance (as opposed to appeasing activists). Labelling a different view to activist opinion as extreme is ironic. It's views and different views, closing of ranks within cancel culture is hardly open debate.

[biggbn]

turbobloke said:

biggbn said:

popeyewhite said:

bhstewie said:

You're quite right it isn't which is why he's now looking for a job.

Don't think you've thought that one through. Surely you don't think the interruption in learning to the kids he teaches at school is a good thing?

The problem surely is that he feels alright about acting on his views whilst ignoring, and being critical of those of another. It is sadly typical of many, he is complaining about being sacked for exercising his right to free speech and thought whilst ignoring those of someone he doesn't agree with.

These were quoted as being his feelings-

'I believe the student was immersed in a cult. I believe transgender ideology is a cult and should not be encouraged and supported in schools."

Mr Lister denied he held "extreme" views after agreeing he believed that if a parent supported their child's wish to transition, they should be "investigated for Munchausen's by proxy'

Now, he is quite entitled to have those feelings and beliefs but it seems he has allowed them to influence the impartiality he should practice as a teacher.

ISWYM biggmn. I'd add that schools aren't places where pupils call the shots, rightly so. Input to governance issues via student voice doesn't go that far, and statutory duties to safeguard and promote the welfare of all children are in the hands of people above school leaving age as you will know. On that basis it's not a matter of impartiality with safeguarding issues by accepting what pupils say and do about gender, surely it's how it's dealt with in individual circumstances, with pupil welfare and wellbeing of the utmost importance (as opposed to appeasing activists). Labelling a different view to activist opinion as extreme is ironic. It's views and different views, closing of ranks within cancel culture is hardly open debate.

I'm not suggesting that the debate should be one sided, indeed I took great pains to point out that he is entitled to his opinion. As you say, the college will have guidelines in place to deal with gender fluidity or transitioning issues so as a teacher, he should be aware of these and his obligations as an employee.

[JagLover]

Apparently one of the panel members had been making prejudicial remarks online indicating bias. So this will resume later on in the year with a new panel.

[biggbn]

JagLover said:

Apparently one of the panel members had been making prejudicial remarks online indicating bias. So this will resume later on in the year with a new panel.

Good, these things need handled properly and fairly.

[Vanden Saab]

biggbn said:

JagLover said:

Apparently one of the panel members had been making prejudicial remarks online indicating bias. So this will resume later on in the year with a new panel.

Good, these things need handled properly and fairly.

I stand to be corrected but I think that was a similar, in that it was trans-related, but different case in Nottingham.

[JagLover]

Vanden Saab said:

biggbn said:

JagLover said:

Apparently one of the panel members had been making prejudicial remarks online indicating bias. So this will resume later on in the year with a new panel.

Good, these things need handled properly and fairly.

I stand to be corrected but I think that was a similar, in that it was trans-related, but different case in Nottingham.

Quite right. Just saw the headline and thought it was the same case. Apparently this was another teacher dismissed over Trans issues.

[pocketspring]

One of my friends kids, whose ten years old, has a kid in his class who wants to go from Arthur to Martha. He's allowed to use the girls bathroom as the school isn't allowed to discriminate but the girls are really upset they have a boy using their loos. I did say they could argue possible safeguarding issues.

[andyA700]

pocketspring said:

One of my friends kids, whose ten years old, has a kid in his class who wants to go from Arthur to Martha. He's allowed to use the girls bathroom as the school isn't allowed to discriminate but the girls are really upset they have a boy using their loos. I did say they could argue possible safeguarding issues.

The parents of the girls need to get in touch with these people for advice, because the school is definitely not following safeguarding rules.

https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/

https://safeschoolsallianceuk.net/wp-content/uploa...

[chrispmartha]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-68...


Lost his case. Maybe people might stop thinking they can use the defence of ‘critical gender beliefs’ as a veil to hide their harassment.

[bitchstewie]

"In its judgment, it said Mr Lister was dismissed due to his conduct and expressing his beliefs in an "objectionable" manner."

"Mr Lister has since been banned by the Disclosure and Barring Service (DBS) from participating in regulated activities with children."

Remarkable how many people seem to think his behaviour was acceptable or appropriate around children.

[dundarach]

pocketspring said:

One of my friends kids, whose ten years old, has a kid in his class who wants to go from Arthur to Martha. He's allowed to use the girls bathroom as the school isn't allowed to discriminate but the girls are really upset they have a boy using their loos. I did say they could argue possible safeguarding issues.

Just put full height doors on the loos and call them unisex, if what we often do in new builds now.

Or use the disabled toilet as unisex.

[Dagnir]

chrispmartha said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-68...


Lost his case. Maybe people might stop thinking they can use the defence of ‘critical gender beliefs’ as a veil to hide their harassment.

This specific case aside...

Is there a way to refuse the ideology that isn't harassment?

Harassment of vulnerable people obviously isn't ok but how does one politely and respectfully stick to one's beliefs without it being harassment?

Genuine question.

It's a position many of us might find ourselves in. Don't want to be horrible but also shouldn't have to confirm to someone else's radical ideology.


(And do try and refrain from the insidious and simplistic "just be a decent person, it doesnt cost you anything" nonsense. I'm after proper nuanced input please)

[bitchstewie]

Call people what they want to be called.

If you don't agree with it find a way to speak to them without calling them what they have explicitly said they don't want to be called using terms they've explicitly asked you not to use.

It isn't that difficult.

[biggbn]

Dagnir said:

chrispmartha said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-68...


Lost his case. Maybe people might stop thinking they can use the defence of ‘critical gender beliefs’ as a veil to hide their harassment.

This specific case aside...

Is there a way to refuse the ideology that isn't harassment?

Harassment of vulnerable people obviously isn't ok but how does one politely and respectfully stick to one's beliefs without it being harassment?

Genuine question.

It's a position many of us might find ourselves in. Don't want to be horrible but also shouldn't have to confirm to someone else's radical ideology.


(And do try and refrain from the insidious and simplistic "just be a decent person, it doesnt cost you anything" nonsense. I'm after proper nuanced input please)

Isn't it as simple as voicing your concerns through proper channels, politely letting your beliefs be known and going on the record that you are choosing to comply under duress? If someone feels so strongly that they cannot and will not comply with a request by what is ostensibly another adult, although 17 is a grey area, but my assumption is it wouldn't have mattered whatever the age of the person, then I'd suggest a job like teaching which relies on interpersonal skills and is a guarantee that you are going to have to deal with people from all walks of life perhaps wasn't a wise life choice. And yes, I understand the teaching 'game' has changed hugely, but life tends to do that. An inability or unwillingness to evolve your way of thinking or develop coping skills for an ever changing world will leave you rapidly isolated and surrounded by narrow minded bigots.

Now, please note, and I explain this as I know what PH can be like, I am not suggesting those who struggle with transitioning etc are narrow minded bigots, they are far from it, I am suggesting that those who are unsure, unclear, anti whatever yet are totally intransigent and non-sympathetic in their views, make no effort to understand and refuse simple courtesy of calling someone by a preferred name, are. I know many, many people who are vocally anti trans/woke, whatever yet channel their beliefs in an appropriate manner and their beliefs do not affect their job. They are smart enough and have enough social skills to realise that times they are indeed a'changin, and there is little they can do to stop it wehter they agree or not. So, they make the best of it. They enquire, they tell others they struggle, they don't understand, and others help them.

I am often reminded of a story Gok Wang tells about his dad who, when he brought his first boyfriend home, left the family meal and unbeknown to Wang, went and made a bed up for the couple despite being vocally anti homosexual and from a culture that feels the same way. Wang asked him why he had done it, knowing the way he feels and his reply was 'I don't understand why you are the way you are, I can never understand but you are, you are my son, and I love you'.

And there we have it. For me it is neither insidious nor simplistic to suggest that as an act of fraternal love we try to accommodate those we don't, can't, might never understand. Some day, we will be the ones needing understanding....

[chrispmartha]

Dagnir said:

chrispmartha said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-68...


Lost his case. Maybe people might stop thinking they can use the defence of ‘critical gender beliefs’ as a veil to hide their harassment.

This specific case aside...

Is there a way to refuse the ideology that isn't harassment?

Harassment of vulnerable people obviously isn't ok but how does one politely and respectfully stick to one's beliefs without it being harassment?

Genuine question.

It's a position many of us might find ourselves in. Don't want to be horrible but also shouldn't have to confirm to someone else's radical ideology.


(And do try and refrain from the insidious and simplistic "just be a decent person, it doesnt cost you anything" nonsense. I'm after proper nuanced input please)

Isn’t it simple? (In this case anyway) the Teacher is allowed to hold whatever views he wants, however in his professional capacity it doesn’t give him the right to impose or harass anyone (especially a pupil) because of their views.

Despite how it’s being framed it wasn’t just because he refused to ise a the pupils preferred pronouns

[BikeBikeBIke]

Dagnir said:

This specific case aside...

Is there a way to refuse the ideology that isn't harassment?

Harassment of vulnerable people obviously isn't ok but how does one politely and respectfully stick to one's beliefs without it being harassment?

Genuine question.

It's a position many of us might find ourselves in. Don't want to be horrible but also shouldn't have to confirm to someone else's radical ideology.

It's very easy to completely avoid pronouns and first names and there are gender neutral pronouns. Clearly verbal slip ups will be made but I doubt that would be considered harassment.

This guy went out of his way to be awkward. (Sounds like the Pupil did too.)

Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Thursday 28th March 08:38

[chrispmartha]

BikeBikeBIke said:

Dagnir said:

This specific case aside...

Is there a way to refuse the ideology that isn't harassment?

Harassment of vulnerable people obviously isn't ok but how does one politely and respectfully stick to one's beliefs without it being harassment?

Genuine question.

It's a position many of us might find ourselves in. Don't want to be horrible but also shouldn't have to confirm to someone else's radical ideology.

It's very easy to completely avoid pronouns and first names and there are gender neutral pronouns. Clearly verbal slip ups will be made but I doubt that would he considered harassment.

This guy went out of his way to be awkward. (Sounds like the Pupil did too.)

Even if the pupil was being ‘awkward’ (teenager student being awkward is hardly an unusual thing) then it’s the teacher’s responsibility to deal with it in the correct manner, if they can’t, id suggest they are in the wrong job.