Teacher fired for not using preferred pronouns!
Discussion
turbobloke said:
Rant? Was that about your post? Anti trans...how does a young person transition to potato gender? Government guidance makes it clear that schools do not have to accept a child’s request to socially transition. What's your authority for overstepping this guidance by expecting schools to look the other way in mute acceptance and teach oxbow lakes - guidance which presumably you knew nothing of?
The quotes in the article suggest to me that the teacher in question is anti trans. Your mileage may vary.Not using the student's preferred name and instead using their birth name would appear to be at odds with the government guidance you are fond of. To be honest, I don't really care what the guidance says; it's trivial to avoid gendered pronouns. What advantage does this teachers attitude bring? Will being an arse to this student do anything positive?
ScotHill said:
turbobloke said:
Red herring, you're back to matters relating to individuals rather than what the government guidance is about, and what it says: schools do not have to accept a child’s request to socially transition. Getting on with a French verb and ignoring what's happening in a decent human way is tacit acceptance of something that ought not to be tacitly accepted.
'do not have to' and 'ought not' are two different things. You're coming across as a c
t as well.Your interpretation as to how I come across amounts to nothing outside your head, you can choose how you want to receive and consider anybody's post content. Mine is suggesting that teachers should be polite and decent and schools should consider government guidance in terms of not having to accept a child’s request to socially transition. That makes me no more or less than a PHer offering a viewpoint, one you can't cope with beyond infantile and vulgar abuse.
turbobloke said:
By resorting to abuse you're not doing too well either.
Your interpretation as to how I come across amounts to nothing outside your head, you can choose how you want to receive and consider anybody's post content. Mine is suggesting that teachers should be polite and decent and schools should consider government guidance in terms of not having to accept a child’s request to socially transition. That makes me no more or less than a PHer offering a viewpoint, one you can't cope with beyond infantile and vulgar abuse.
Well put. It's the same posters insisting their opinion is the only correct one on almost every similar thread where modern social issues are raised. The law is quite clear on this matter now, fortunately.Your interpretation as to how I come across amounts to nothing outside your head, you can choose how you want to receive and consider anybody's post content. Mine is suggesting that teachers should be polite and decent and schools should consider government guidance in terms of not having to accept a child’s request to socially transition. That makes me no more or less than a PHer offering a viewpoint, one you can't cope with beyond infantile and vulgar abuse.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Taking both articles at face value do you think the teacher was polite and decent?
Already answered. Was the PHer's abusive response to my reasoned post polite and decent? Playing the man not the ball is all some people can manage. Why do you skip over that in your crusade? Partisan as usual.My post content on this thread has been focused on schools considering gov't guidance, rather than opting for abrogation of responsibility by looking the other way and teaching maths or whatever...being polite and decent in the process is expected (including by me).
Aren't there two issues at play here?
Firstly, the issue of whether a teacher should be kind and use a pupil's preferred pronouns and name (or at least stick to neutral terms). In my opinion the answer is "yes, the teacher should" because it's the decent thing to do.
Secondly, the issue of whether a teacher should be dismissed for choosing not to do the above, as appears to be the case here. That, I'd have thought, is a matter of school policy (as informed by the government I imagine) and possibly the law. Hence this tribunal. It'll be interesting to see the outcome, but I'd be uncomfortable with a ruling that you could legitimately be sacked for not complying with a child pupil's preferred pronoun wishes.
Firstly, the issue of whether a teacher should be kind and use a pupil's preferred pronouns and name (or at least stick to neutral terms). In my opinion the answer is "yes, the teacher should" because it's the decent thing to do.
Secondly, the issue of whether a teacher should be dismissed for choosing not to do the above, as appears to be the case here. That, I'd have thought, is a matter of school policy (as informed by the government I imagine) and possibly the law. Hence this tribunal. It'll be interesting to see the outcome, but I'd be uncomfortable with a ruling that you could legitimately be sacked for not complying with a child pupil's preferred pronoun wishes.
Hants PHer said:
Aren't there two issues at play here?
Firstly, the issue of whether a teacher should be kind and use a pupil's preferred pronouns and name (or at least stick to neutral terms). In my opinion the answer is "yes, the teacher should" because it's the decent thing to do.
Secondly, the issue of whether a teacher should be dismissed for choosing not to do the above, as appears to be the case here. That, I'd have thought, is a matter of school policy (as informed by the government I imagine) and possibly the law. Hence this tribunal. It'll be interesting to see the outcome, but I'd be uncomfortable with a ruling that you could legitimately be sacked for not complying with a child pupil's preferred pronoun wishes.
The college seems to have taken the view that the teachers attitude and treatment of the student amounts to bullying/harassment. It certainly seems from his comments in the articles that it likely wasn't just a case of him not using the students preferred pronouns.Firstly, the issue of whether a teacher should be kind and use a pupil's preferred pronouns and name (or at least stick to neutral terms). In my opinion the answer is "yes, the teacher should" because it's the decent thing to do.
Secondly, the issue of whether a teacher should be dismissed for choosing not to do the above, as appears to be the case here. That, I'd have thought, is a matter of school policy (as informed by the government I imagine) and possibly the law. Hence this tribunal. It'll be interesting to see the outcome, but I'd be uncomfortable with a ruling that you could legitimately be sacked for not complying with a child pupil's preferred pronoun wishes.
If somebody wants to "identify as" (ie pretend to be) something that they aren't then that's their business & I say let them get on with it. A bit of the ol' laissez faire, y'know?
If they want me to pretend that they're something that they aren't then it's my business whether I do & I'll decide as I see fit. If they get upset when I'm truthful then tough titty.
Many are saying sack the teacher for not acquiescing with the fantasy. In other threads people ask why teachers aren't supported more, why classroom discipline is gone, why kids are leaving school with a grasp of reality so tenuous as to be delusional. I think the two topics are related.
My opinion? There's 2 genders & a simple way to ascertain which is which. Anything else is bullst. Other opinions might vary.
If they want me to pretend that they're something that they aren't then it's my business whether I do & I'll decide as I see fit. If they get upset when I'm truthful then tough titty.
Many are saying sack the teacher for not acquiescing with the fantasy. In other threads people ask why teachers aren't supported more, why classroom discipline is gone, why kids are leaving school with a grasp of reality so tenuous as to be delusional. I think the two topics are related.
My opinion? There's 2 genders & a simple way to ascertain which is which. Anything else is bulls
t. Other opinions might vary.Ridgemont said:
And this above is the problem.
He didn’t regard his pronoun as valid. Because he quite clearly doesn’t believe it is. And this is as per the Maya Forstater ruling a valid view. As per that ruling the idea of Gender identity is contested and you cannot go around Willy nilly sacking people because of their opposition to that view.
Racism and religion are entirely different issues entirely.
As per the post also in thread there is a concept called compelled speech.
Teacher him maths. Right.
Suggest you actually read the Forstater EAT JudgementHe didn’t regard his pronoun as valid. Because he quite clearly doesn’t believe it is. And this is as per the Maya Forstater ruling a valid view. As per that ruling the idea of Gender identity is contested and you cannot go around Willy nilly sacking people because of their opposition to that view.
Racism and religion are entirely different issues entirely.
As per the post also in thread there is a concept called compelled speech.
Teacher him maths. Right.
JUSTICE CHOUDHURY said:
This judgment does not mean that those with gender-critical beliefs can ‘misgender’
trans persons with impunity. The Claimant, like everyone else, will continue to be
subject to the prohibitions on discrimination and harassment that apply to everyone
else. Whether or not conduct in a given situation does amount to harassment or
discrimination within the meaning of EqA will be for a tribunal to determine in a given
case.
trans persons with impunity. The Claimant, like everyone else, will continue to be
subject to the prohibitions on discrimination and harassment that apply to everyone
else. Whether or not conduct in a given situation does amount to harassment or
discrimination within the meaning of EqA will be for a tribunal to determine in a given
case.
Douglas Quaid said:
I wonder how far it will go. If a student identified as a potato and the teacher didn’t want to call him/her/they a spud, would that be grounds for dismissal?
It sounds daft but could it happen?
Teacher should have identified himself as an English teacher.It sounds daft but could it happen?
“Who says 1 + 1 = 2 ?
Utterly barmy imo
Use whatever name is on the college register
If it’s Geoff on Friday and changes to Michelle on Monday then fine go with the flow
If the student insists on changing it every day tell them take it up with the college and go with what’s officially listed on any official documents
And as for pronouns just refer to someone by name it’s much easier than he her it ze zem toaster etc if there is any doubt
The world is full of people spoiling for arguments it seems on both sides of the equation.
Use whatever name is on the college register
If it’s Geoff on Friday and changes to Michelle on Monday then fine go with the flow
If the student insists on changing it every day tell them take it up with the college and go with what’s officially listed on any official documents
And as for pronouns just refer to someone by name it’s much easier than he her it ze zem toaster etc if there is any doubt
The world is full of people spoiling for arguments it seems on both sides of the equation.
turbobloke said:
Already answered. Was the PHer's abusive response to my reasoned post polite and decent? Playing the man not the ball is all some people can manage. Why do you skip over that in your crusade? Partisan as usual.
My post content on this thread has been focused on schools considering gov't guidance, rather than opting for abrogation of responsibility by looking the other way and teaching maths or whatever...being polite and decent in the process is expected (including by me).
The government guidance has been published for consultation only, any school relying on it might find themselves in legal trouble and unable to rely on non statutory guidance which is not in effect and has indeed had its legality called into question.My post content on this thread has been focused on schools considering gov't guidance, rather than opting for abrogation of responsibility by looking the other way and teaching maths or whatever...being polite and decent in the process is expected (including by me).
Rather than the BBC story ... To quote the local newspaper
"I knew that with the trans-affirmative policy in the college, for me to use what they call the deadname - her birth name - I would be accused of transphobia, but to then use her new name I would be encouraging the social transition without parental consent.
"So I avoided names altogether... and tried to be as gentle and supportive as I could in the nearly impossible circumstances I found myself in."
A disciplinary hearing found that he subjected a gender-transitioning student to transphobic discrimination and harassment, and refused to use the student's preferred name and pronouns.
Despite these findings, Mr Lister insists he has done nothing wrong and is claiming wrongful dismissal and discrimination.
He added: "A week after the safeguarding referral, there's a female maths competition.
"The student puts a hand up and says 'can I still enter the competition?' and I said 'of course you can because you're a girl', and I put her birth name up on the board, then got accused of deadnaming.
Put's a different spin on things ??
Maybe someone isn't a ct or obnoxious bloke and maybe someone else would be better off out of the classroom??
"I knew that with the trans-affirmative policy in the college, for me to use what they call the deadname - her birth name - I would be accused of transphobia, but to then use her new name I would be encouraging the social transition without parental consent.
"So I avoided names altogether... and tried to be as gentle and supportive as I could in the nearly impossible circumstances I found myself in."
A disciplinary hearing found that he subjected a gender-transitioning student to transphobic discrimination and harassment, and refused to use the student's preferred name and pronouns.
Despite these findings, Mr Lister insists he has done nothing wrong and is claiming wrongful dismissal and discrimination.
He added: "A week after the safeguarding referral, there's a female maths competition.
"The student puts a hand up and says 'can I still enter the competition?' and I said 'of course you can because you're a girl', and I put her birth name up on the board, then got accused of deadnaming.
Put's a different spin on things ??
Maybe someone isn't a c
t or obnoxious bloke and maybe someone else would be better off out of the classroom??breamster said:
ScotHill said:
What a ct that guy comes across as. Better off out of the classroom.
Absolutely. What an obnoxious bloke. He should never be teaching. t that guy comes across as. Better off out of the classroom.Sometimes I’m not sure I really belong in society because I just don’t understand it. It must be me, I must be mad. But I have no idea what gender is. You’re either male or female aren’t you. You can’t choose to be something that you’re not. I can identify as a woman but I’m still a man and as such I’m a he because that what we call males. To call me she is to go along with the fraud. I dont understand how someone can be sacked for stating a truth and refusing to support a lie. It’s a total distortion of language…it’s utterly mad. I’m sure it’s a form of gaslighting of society. We all have to be unthinking and just accept this crap.
T6 vanman said:
Rather than the BBC story ... To quote the local newspaper
"I knew that with the trans-affirmative policy in the college, for me to use what they call the deadname - her birth name - I would be accused of transphobia, but to then use her new name I would be encouraging the social transition without parental consent.
"So I avoided names altogether... and tried to be as gentle and supportive as I could in the nearly impossible circumstances I found myself in."
A disciplinary hearing found that he subjected a gender-transitioning student to transphobic discrimination and harassment, and refused to use the student's preferred name and pronouns.
Despite these findings, Mr Lister insists he has done nothing wrong and is claiming wrongful dismissal and discrimination.
He added: "A week after the safeguarding referral, there's a female maths competition.
"The student puts a hand up and says 'can I still enter the competition?' and I said 'of course you can because you're a girl', and I put her birth name up on the board, then got accused of deadnaming.
Put's a different spin on things ??
Maybe someone isn't a ct or obnoxious bloke and maybe someone else would be better off out of the classroom??
The BBC should be ashamed of themselves for not printing all the facts. The added context changes the story completely. Difficult situation for the teacher if he’s knackered whichever name he chooses. The BBC proved themselves to be untrustworthy and biased throughout the whole covid debacle and this is more of the same bulls"I knew that with the trans-affirmative policy in the college, for me to use what they call the deadname - her birth name - I would be accused of transphobia, but to then use her new name I would be encouraging the social transition without parental consent.
"So I avoided names altogether... and tried to be as gentle and supportive as I could in the nearly impossible circumstances I found myself in."
A disciplinary hearing found that he subjected a gender-transitioning student to transphobic discrimination and harassment, and refused to use the student's preferred name and pronouns.
Despite these findings, Mr Lister insists he has done nothing wrong and is claiming wrongful dismissal and discrimination.
He added: "A week after the safeguarding referral, there's a female maths competition.
"The student puts a hand up and says 'can I still enter the competition?' and I said 'of course you can because you're a girl', and I put her birth name up on the board, then got accused of deadnaming.
Put's a different spin on things ??
Maybe someone isn't a c
t or obnoxious bloke and maybe someone else would be better off out of the classroom??breamster said:
ScotHill said:
What a ct that guy comes across as. Better off out of the classroom.
Absolutely. What an obnoxious bloke. He should never be teaching. t that guy comes across as. Better off out of the classroom.t. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff