Women in Afghanistan abandoned
Discussion
BikeBikeBIke said:
Not true.
The Azov Brigade was integrated into the normal Ukranian army years ago and, anyway, got wiped out in Mariupol.
The Ukranian government isn't a Puppet Governent. They were voted in in fair and transparent elections, and,if Putin had t made them popular with this invasion would likely have been voted out by now.
Of course Zelenksy is a puppet. The West has been pulling all the strings there since the 2014 coup!The Azov Brigade was integrated into the normal Ukranian army years ago and, anyway, got wiped out in Mariupol.
The Ukranian government isn't a Puppet Governent. They were voted in in fair and transparent elections, and,if Putin had t made them popular with this invasion would likely have been voted out by now.
grumbledoak said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Not true.
The Azov Brigade was integrated into the normal Ukranian army years ago and, anyway, got wiped out in Mariupol.
The Ukranian government isn't a Puppet Governent. They were voted in in fair and transparent elections, and,if Putin had t made them popular with this invasion would likely have been voted out by now.
Of course Zelenksy is a puppet. The West has been pulling all the strings there since the 2014 coup!The Azov Brigade was integrated into the normal Ukranian army years ago and, anyway, got wiped out in Mariupol.
The Ukranian government isn't a Puppet Governent. They were voted in in fair and transparent elections, and,if Putin had t made them popular with this invasion would likely have been voted out by now.
2)He didn't do what the Presdent Of the USA wanted when he was asked to provide dirt on political opponents.
3) At the time People were saying he was a Rusian puppet:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-ukraine...
4) Cite some evidence he's a puppet?
Skeptisk said:
I genuinely don’t know if it is better. Is it not giving Ukrainians false hopes whilst prolonging the war at the cost of Ukrainian (and Russian) lives?
Prolonging the war? You'd rather Ukrainians were wiped out quickly rather than slowly I guess? Just let Russia do what it wants and wipe Ukrainian culture and identity off the map, steal all the children and anyone who protests gets murdered or sent to Siberia? And when they've done that with Ukraine they can start on Moldova and Georgia too, because we won't raise a finger. And then the Baltics...What is happening to women in Afghanistan is horrible but at least I don't believe the Taliban want to perform genocide on their neighbours. What Russia is doing to Ukrainians on the other hand, is pure evil.
The western countries choose to abandon rather a lot of the oppressed people around the world when they aren't useful enough to 'us'. Whatever made the OP think Afghanistan would be a different case compared to.....I don't know a lot of other places in the world where terrible things (and probably rather worse than application of strict shariah law) are happening?
king arthur said:
Skeptisk said:
I genuinely don’t know if it is better. Is it not giving Ukrainians false hopes whilst prolonging the war at the cost of Ukrainian (and Russian) lives?
Prolonging the war? You'd rather Ukrainians were wiped out quickly rather than slowly I guess? Just let Russia do what it wants and wipe Ukrainian culture and identity off the map, steal all the children and anyone who protests gets murdered or sent to Siberia? And when they've done that with Ukraine they can start on Moldova and Georgia too, because we won't raise a finger. And then the Baltics...What is happening to women in Afghanistan is horrible but at least I don't believe the Taliban want to perform genocide on their neighbours. What Russia is doing to Ukrainians on the other hand, is pure evil.
Skeptisk said:
Another person with reading comprehension problems. Why are you equating my criticism that not enough is being done to help Ukraine with support for Russia?
Well then you need to explain yourself better. How is sending weapons to Ukraine, albeit not enough, not better than doing nothing?
BikeBikeBIke said:
1) Free elections.
2)He didn't do what the Presdent Of the USA wanted when he was asked to provide dirt on political opponents.
3) At the time People were saying he was a Rusian puppet:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-ukraine...
4) Cite some evidence he's a puppet?
Yes, he was elected. On a "peace" ticket that he turned his back on. 2)He didn't do what the Presdent Of the USA wanted when he was asked to provide dirt on political opponents.
3) At the time People were saying he was a Rusian puppet:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-ukraine...
4) Cite some evidence he's a puppet?
And yes, puppet. Even when Russia agreed to peace terms having achieved their objectives in a "special operation" that Ukraine could never win, Zelensky could not accept without permission. Which Boris flew out to deny him.
Anyway, Afghanistan's women.
king arthur said:
Skeptisk said:
Another person with reading comprehension problems. Why are you equating my criticism that not enough is being done to help Ukraine with support for Russia?
Well then you need to explain yourself better. How is sending weapons to Ukraine, albeit not enough, not better than doing nothing?Terrible what’s happened there for liberal women. Islam has been going on for a while and it’s more extreme views as well. Perhaps the woman should fight for their freedom but it is very difficult to get out of it under the cloak of religious belief. There will be a group of women that embrace the teachings and carry on with traditional values for them. Very bad for us with liberal standards and very bad overall but there is probably somewhat an acceptance that’s the way of Islam for them as well.
Crazy world. Extreme religious beliefs are manipulations to allow power and control.
Crazy world. Extreme religious beliefs are manipulations to allow power and control.
Skeptisk said:
If it only delays, rather than prevents, a Russian victory, is it worthwhile? Yes it might wear down Russia, weaken them and be good for the West but if Ukraine loses and suffers massive flight of their population, destruction of their infrastructure and killing of their young men, will it have helped Ukraine?
A Russian victory will embolden Putin's regime and lead to the same happening to more countries, so we need to do everything to stop it happening. Why do you think Poland is massively upping its military spend? They know what living under Russian rule is like and they don't want it again.CrgT16 said:
Terrible what’s happened there for liberal women. Islam has been going on for a while and it’s more extreme views as well. Perhaps the woman should fight for their freedom but it is very difficult to get out of it under the cloak of religious belief. There will be a group of women that embrace the teachings and carry on with traditional values for them. Very bad for us with liberal standards and very bad overall but there is probably somewhat an acceptance that’s the way of Islam for them as well.
Crazy world. Extreme religious beliefs are manipulations to allow power and control.
How do you suggest the women of Afghanistan fight for their freedom exactly?Crazy world. Extreme religious beliefs are manipulations to allow power and control.
In case you didn't read the link I posted a bit earlier
https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/afghan...
I don’t suggest anything and I completely condemn their list of freedoms, etc.
My point is that in this case, a more extreme interpretation of Islam has been adopted for many years and there will be both men and women supporting that way of life.
The ones that don’t either try to escape or are helped by the west where more liberal values are common.
A military intervention will not do that as we have been there many years and unless it’s permanently occupied it’s not going to happen.
No one says it’s easy but if you want change in your country that change always has to come within, yes outside help but needs to come from within. No one said it’s easy or without loss. Their way of life has been going on for a while so difficult to change.
Out of interest,to look at other viewpoints… how do you propose to improve their life at present?
My point is that in this case, a more extreme interpretation of Islam has been adopted for many years and there will be both men and women supporting that way of life.
The ones that don’t either try to escape or are helped by the west where more liberal values are common.
A military intervention will not do that as we have been there many years and unless it’s permanently occupied it’s not going to happen.
No one says it’s easy but if you want change in your country that change always has to come within, yes outside help but needs to come from within. No one said it’s easy or without loss. Their way of life has been going on for a while so difficult to change.
Out of interest,to look at other viewpoints… how do you propose to improve their life at present?
grumbledoak said:
And yes, puppet. Even when Russia agreed to peace terms having achieved their objectives in a "special operation" that Ukraine could never win, Zelensky could not accept without permission. Which Boris flew out to deny him.
(And please cite your source.)
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Friday 29th March 11:55
CrgT16 said:
I don’t suggest anything and I completely condemn their list of freedoms, etc.
My point is that in this case, a more extreme interpretation of Islam has been adopted for many years and there will be both men and women supporting that way of life.
The ones that don’t either try to escape or are helped by the west where more liberal values are common.
A military intervention will not do that as we have been there many years and unless it’s permanently occupied it’s not going to happen.
No one says it’s easy but if you want change in your country that change always has to come within, yes outside help but needs to come from within. No one said it’s easy or without loss. Their way of life has been going on for a while so difficult to change.
Out of interest,to look at other viewpoints… how do you propose to improve their life at present?
Did you read the link? People with more knowledge of the situation than you and I have an opinion on how to move forward and improve their life.My point is that in this case, a more extreme interpretation of Islam has been adopted for many years and there will be both men and women supporting that way of life.
The ones that don’t either try to escape or are helped by the west where more liberal values are common.
A military intervention will not do that as we have been there many years and unless it’s permanently occupied it’s not going to happen.
No one says it’s easy but if you want change in your country that change always has to come within, yes outside help but needs to come from within. No one said it’s easy or without loss. Their way of life has been going on for a while so difficult to change.
Out of interest,to look at other viewpoints… how do you propose to improve their life at present?
https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/afghan...
I disagree that the extreme interpretation of Islam is how the majority of afghans want to live their lives. The Taliban crush dissent and are an authoritarian rule, which we helped with. Apparently the CIA had ties with Bin Laden when the Taliban were fighting the russians.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Yes, according to your logic we were prolonging the process of defeat. According to your logic we did the right thing pulling out. According to my logic we had a tiny force of people there keeping the Afgan Security forces together and allowing the people in towns at least to live a civilised life. It was costing us peanuts amd we should have stayed in. (In hindsight - I thought pulling out was the root thigs to do at the time.)
.
Vast sums in both military spending and aid were poured into Afghanistan and built nothing of more substance than a sandcastle on the beach with the tide coming in..
You cannot impose a new way of living on a society by force. People often cite the examples of Germany and Japan but in those countries there was recent history of more pluralistic and liberal societies and all that was required was a change in those governing the countries.
Maybe in the future, even in a few hundred years time, indigenous free thinkers will rebel against the religious fanatics, who knows. All I know is the west is well out of it.
Edited by JagLover on Friday 29th March 13:00
s1962a said:
I disagree that the extreme interpretation of Islam is how the majority of afghans want to live their lives. The Taliban crush dissent and are an authoritarian rule, which we helped with. Apparently the CIA had ties with Bin Laden when the Taliban were fighting the russians.
That would be a bit hard since the Taliban were formed in religious schools in Pakistan after the Soviet war in Afghanistan was over. They may have recruited some former Mujahedeen into their ranks but that is where the movement originated. It is a pretence of some that Islamic extremism is primarily due to the west.
JagLover said:
s1962a said:
I disagree that the extreme interpretation of Islam is how the majority of afghans want to live their lives. The Taliban crush dissent and are an authoritarian rule, which we helped with. Apparently the CIA had ties with Bin Laden when the Taliban were fighting the russians.
That would be a bit hard since the Taliban were formed in religious schools in Pakistan after the Soviet war in Afghanistan was over. They may have recruited some former Mujahedeen into their ranks but that is where the movement originated. It is a pretence of some that Islamic extremism is primarily due to the west.
I suspect if we hadn't meddled then Afghanistan would probably have been more like Pakistan, with a s
tty government and minority Islamist groups trying to wrestle some control through violent means. But there probably wouldn't have been the extreme government that is the Taliban.JagLover said:
Vast sums in both military spending and aid were poured into Afghanistan and built nothing of more substance than a sandcastle on the beach with the tide coming in.
And those sums were nothing in line with what was - is - actually needed for nationbuilding. Look at the scale of funding and aid (material, political, administrative, industrial) given to Germany and Japan after WW2 and, as you say, in Germany it was at least more a case of 'reversion' rather than construction. Nation-building can be done but it takes decades, trillions and genuine support from without and sincere belief and vision from within.
In both Afghanistan and Iraq the coalition seemed to genuinely believe that once the regime was toppled and the people were given the chance to see a Big Mac and wear some Levis that a modern state would emerge.
The Americans were also spectacularly myopic about historical and cultural factors. For instance in Afghanistan they immediately closed down any notion of the new state being a constitutional monarchy under Mohammed Zahir Shah - despite him being a broadly a-political and unifying national figure who sat above traditional tribal loyalties. Partly out of diplomatic concerns with Pakistan but also because, in Rumsfeld's words, "we're not in the business of making monarchies."
Edited by 2xChevrons on Friday 29th March 13:33
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff