Women in Afghanistan abandoned

[Skeptisk]

s1962a said:

Biker 1 said:

Seems to me that the Taliban are pretty popular over there. Umpteen invasions have not snuffed out their weird religious views, so what are 'we' supposed to do about it exactly? Sanctions? Another invasion to encourage western democracy?
Maybe 'we' could try the same in other places? Iran? Saudi? Somalia perhaps??

The Taliban are a pariah - they even have beef with all their neighbours and even ISIS think they are s - do you even recall who the Taliban are? They are the "freedom fighters" the west trained up to counter Russia. We left Afghanistan and allowed the Taliban to take over in a power vacuum, and thats part of the problem.

This was Afghanistan before Russia and the US got involved and the Taliban were manufactured.

To be fair that photo could have been taken in other Islamic countries eg Iran, Iraq, probably Pakistan, in the sixties.

[Skeptisk]

BikeBikeBIke said:

Skeptisk said:

I genuinely don’t know if it is better. Is it not giving Ukrainians false hopes whilst prolonging the war at the cost of Ukrainian (and Russian) lives?.

They think it's better and it's their choice.

I would certainly want help if the UK was being invaded, we were pretty glad to have Amercia helping us out last time.

Wouldn't helping the Afgans get rid of their oppressors also be false hope? By your logic aren't Afgan women better off without our assistance?

Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Friday 29th March 08:57

I think it depends what you mean by help. Help to win is not the same as help to prolong the process of defeat. This is getting off topic but is the West really helping Ukraine win? It doesn’t seem like it to me.

I am not sure what the West could do about the Taliban. It just seems incredible that after 20 years and trillions of dollars that the Taliban seem to be back in control and doing what they want.

[swisstoni]

s1962a said:

swisstoni said:

What do you suggest ‘the West community’ do about it?

We invaded Afghanistan and were there for 20 years plus - do you recall why we did that?

What do you suggest is done now, then?

[grumbledoak]

s1962a said:

The Taliban are a pariah - they even have beef with all their neighbours and even ISIS think they are s - do you even recall who the Taliban are? They are the "freedom fighters" the west trained up to counter Russia. We left Afghanistan and allowed the Taliban to take over in a power vacuum, and thats part of the problem.

This was Afghanistan before Russia and the US got involved and the Taliban were manufactured.

It is the same story across much of Asia. Many Muslim countries were on a gentle progressive path until the West decided it suited us better to use them for our own ends. We installed puppet governments, set them to war, and ran away leaving a power vacuum. None of this was good for the women, or the men. It was all very very profitable for Western corporations. On the plus side, the Taliban is actually a return to Afghan self rule. In that regard I can see why the people might even prefer them.

Watch what happens when we've finished doing the same to Ukraine. In about twenty years.

[s1962a]

swisstoni said:

s1962a said:

swisstoni said:

What do you suggest ‘the West community’ do about it?

We invaded Afghanistan and were there for 20 years plus - do you recall why we did that?

What do you suggest is done now, then?

I'm no military strategist but I don't think we should have left Afghanistan in the state it was. If our goal is to make the peoples lives there better then maybe we should engage with them. Somehow I suspect no one really cares about the lives of ordinary afghans, and especially the women.

Let me ask you this, do you think the sanctions against the Taliban are making the lives of ordinary people there better?
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/29/taliban-sanct...

[LivLL]

We?

[s1962a]

LivLL said:

We?

Yes.

[williamp]

Luckily for them, the Americans left behind a few bits and bobs..

[BikeBikeBIke]

Skeptisk said:

I think it depends what you mean by help. Help to win is not the same as help to prolong the process of defeat. This is getting off topic but is the West really helping Ukraine win? It doesn’t seem like it to me.

Spelled out for you here:

https://x.com/k_sonin/status/1773469245722018149?s...

Skeptisk said:

I am not sure what the West could do about the Taliban. It just seems incredible that after 20 years and trillions of dollars that the Taliban seem to be back in control and doing what they want.

Yes, according to your logic we were prolonging the process of defeat. According to your logic we did the right thing pulling out. According to my logic we had a tiny force of people there keeping the Afgan Security forces together and allowing the people in towns at least to live a civilised life. It was costing us peanuts amd we should have stayed in. (In hindsight - I thought pulling out was the root thigs to do at the time.)

In Ukraine Russia are the Taliban and Ukranians are the Afgan people. For zero lives and for little money we can keep the Russians aways from the vast majority of them indefinitely.

See also South Korea. We're prolonging that too. By your logic we really need to face reality and leave them to it.

And think how much better Western Erurope would be if America hadn't prolonged the cold War and let Russia take over.

Read the article above. This whole idea that surrender == peace is Russian propaganda, tuned for Western Ears. If Russia really believed surrender is the right course of action they could do it right now.

[Pebbles167]

Afghanistan is a lost cause. The taliban have shown that they re organised and patient. Unless the west is willing to have a fairly large force there for the next 50 years, then nothing will change.

[swisstoni]

s1962a said:

swisstoni said:

s1962a said:

swisstoni said:

What do you suggest ‘the West community’ do about it?

We invaded Afghanistan and were there for 20 years plus - do you recall why we did that?

What do you suggest is done now, then?

I'm no military strategist but I don't think we should have left Afghanistan in the state it was. If our goal is to make the peoples lives there better then maybe we should engage with them. Somehow I suspect no one really cares about the lives of ordinary afghans, and especially the women.

Let me ask you this, do you think the sanctions against the Taliban are making the lives of ordinary people there better?
https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/06/29/taliban-sanct...

Probably make no difference. Plenty of countries are happy to trade with them it seems.

[LivLL]

s1962a said:

LivLL said:

We?

Yes.

By we do you mean everyone living in the West including all
Migrants, refugees etc…

Do you mean policy makers, politicians, fighting men and women, do you mean Mrs Miggins who mops out the local primary school each week?

I have an issue bundling all of those millions into being somehow to blame. There’s much to go into but “we” did this isn’t correct IMO

[Byker28i]

Skeptisk said:

Rufus Stone said:

Skeptisk said:

I read this morning that the Taliban are bringing back public flogging and stoning for women, the latter for adultery.

The women in Afghanistan seem to have been abandoned by the Western community. Could or should we be doing something to help them?

How is it that the West spent billions (trillions?) in Afghanistan and the country seems to be in a worse state than ever for anyone other than male, religious fundamentalists.

Is it for just women though? Islam has the same punishment for both men and women I believe.

So you think it gets applied equally and fairly?

Isn’t a man’s testimony under Sharia worth twice a woman’s testimony?

Under the previous Taliban regime weren’t they accused of stoning women who had been raped, because they were treated as adulterers?

Unless you're a gay man and being thrown from the top of a car park?

[Byker28i]

s1962a said:

Biker 1 said:

Seems to me that the Taliban are pretty popular over there. Umpteen invasions have not snuffed out their weird religious views, so what are 'we' supposed to do about it exactly? Sanctions? Another invasion to encourage western democracy?
Maybe 'we' could try the same in other places? Iran? Saudi? Somalia perhaps??

The Taliban are a pariah - they even have beef with all their neighbours and even ISIS think they are s - do you even recall who the Taliban are? They are the "freedom fighters" the west trained up to counter Russia. We left Afghanistan and allowed the Taliban to take over in a power vacuum, and thats part of the problem.

This was Afghanistan before Russia and the US got involved and the Taliban were manufactured.

That could also have been a photo from Iraq
http://musingsoniraq.blogspot.com/2013/12/iraqi-wo...

[s1962a]

LivLL said:

s1962a said:

LivLL said:

We?

Yes.

By we do you mean everyone living in the West including all
Migrants, refugees etc…

Do you mean policy makers, politicians, fighting men and women, do you mean Mrs Miggins who mops out the local primary school each week?

I have an issue bundling all of those millions into being somehow to blame. There’s much to go into but “we” did this isn’t correct IMO

When we reference "we" it's the collective we that makes up this country, and by extension of the Afghanistan issue, all the countries that participate in the "west". Let me ask you this, were you personally asked if it's ok to use your tax money to send weapons and money to Ukraine? Are you ok with us doing it? Thats a "we" issue as well.

[Skeptisk]

said:

Calm down and wipe the spittle off your keyboard.

I didn’t write anything about what might be the best solution for Ukraine.

To me it seems that the only way for Ukraine to win would be to send troops and equipment, meaning fight with them against Russia. Just sending equipment isn’t likely to be enough. A lot of young Ukrainians have fled (there is one in my team) and a lot of those that stayed are dead or injured. The Russians have a lot more bodies to throw at the conflict.

[swisstoni]

Thought about your answer to my question yet?
What do you want ‘the West’ to do about it now?

[grumbledoak]

BikeBikeBIke said:

...

In Ukraine Russia are the Taliban and Ukranians are the Afgan people. For zero lives and for little money we can keep the Russians aways from the vast majority of them indefinitely.

No. The equivalence in Ukraine would be that "we" have installed another puppet government and armed the Azov regiment - that would be their Taliban - to fight against Russia. If we later run away from this one, Zelensky could flee to UAE like Ghani did, abandoning the remains of the country to the Azovs. Will we be wringing our hands at their treatment of women?

[BikeBikeBIke]

grumbledoak said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

...

In Ukraine Russia are the Taliban and Ukranians are the Afgan people. For zero lives and for little money we can keep the Russians aways from the vast majority of them indefinitely.

No. The equivalence in Ukraine would be that "we" have installed another puppet government and armed the Azov regiment - that would be their Taliban - to fight against Russia. If we later run away from this one, Zelensky could flee to UAE like Ghani did, abandoning the remains of the country to the Azovs. Will we be wringing our hands at their treatment of women?

Not true.

The Azov Brigade was integrated into the normal Ukranian army years ago and, anyway, got wiped out in Mariupol.

The Ukranian government isn't a Puppet Governent. They were voted in in fair and transparent elections, and,if Putin had t made them popular with this invasion would likely have been voted out by now.

[s1962a]

Here's an interesting article on what can be done to help Afghanistan. Most of it seems unpalatable to our governments though.

https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/afghan...