Women in Afghanistan abandoned

[s1962a]

Geffg said:

How about all the men / husbands / sons who fled the country go back and fight the cause and sort their own country instead of coming here and wanting us to fix it for them.

Did you know that there are billions and billions of people wanting to come to the UK rather than stay in their own countries?

/Suella

[djc206]

grumbledoak said:

Yes, he was elected. On a "peace" ticket that he turned his back on.
And yes, puppet. Even when Russia agreed to peace terms having achieved their objectives in a "special operation" that Ukraine could never win, Zelensky could not accept without permission. Which Boris flew out to deny him.

Anyway, Afghanistan's women.

Russia and agreement don’t belong in the same sentence. They had an agreement with Ukraine not to invade their country and look how that played out. fk Russia and their word.

[s1962a]

2xChevrons said:

And those sums were nothing in line with what was - is - actually needed for nationbuilding. Look at the scale of funding and aid (material, political, administrative, industrial) given to Germany and Japan after WW2 and, as you say, in Germany it was at least more a case of 'reversion' rather than construction.

Nation-building can be done but it takes decades, trillions and genuine support from without and sincere belief and vision from within.

In both Afghanistan and Iraq the coalition seemed to genuinely believe that once the regime was toppled and the people were given the chance to see a Big Mac and wear some Levis that a modern state would emerge.

The Americans were also spectacularly myopic about historical and cultural factors. For instance in Afghanistan they immediately closed down any notion of the new state being a constitutional monarchy under Mohammed Zahir Shah - despite him being a broadly a-political and unifying national figure who sat above traditional tribal loyalties. Partly out of diplomatic concerns with Pakistan but also because, in Rumsfeld's words, "we're not in the business of making monarchies."

I don't think there was any real desire to make the lives of ordinary Afghans better, only to be there for strategic / military reasons. However with the Taliban at bay the country did thrive and people (especially women) were able to live their lives more normally. And then we left and the Taliban took over from the weak government we left.

[irc]

Skeptisk said:

I read this morning that the Taliban are bringing back public flogging and stoning for women, the latter for adultery.

The women in Afghanistan seem to have been abandoned by the Western community. Could or should we be doing something to help them?

Should we send our troops to enforce equal rights for women in Afghanistan? Nope. Their country, their rules.

Anyone that thinks we should can get themselves along to an army recruiting office so they are ready when the call comes

[s1962a]

irc said:

Skeptisk said:

I read this morning that the Taliban are bringing back public flogging and stoning for women, the latter for adultery.

The women in Afghanistan seem to have been abandoned by the Western community. Could or should we be doing something to help them?

Should we send our troops to enforce equal rights for women in Afghanistan? Nope. Their country, their rules.

Anyone that thinks we should can get themselves along to an army recruiting office so they are ready when the call comes

You know we were there for 20 years plus don't you?

[irc]

s1962a said:

You know we were there for 20 years plus don't you?

Without solving it.

[Oliver Hardy]

Did we not go into Afghanistan because of terrorist attacks being carried out from there on the West and to stop further attacks?

We did not pull out of Afghanistan, the USA did so leaving its allies with no choice but to follow

What about places like North Korea and China?

[ATG]

s1962a said:

I'm no military strategist

Thanks for the clarification

[Oliver Hardy]

irc said:

s1962a said:

You know we were there for 20 years plus don't you?

Without solving it.

But wasn't it reasonably stable and pulling out just waisted what had been achieved over the past 20 years.?

The US abandoned the Kurds in Syria too

[gregs656]

Christopher Hitchens said when he first went to highly conservative Islam culture he expected the women to be the subversive ones. Then he realised it’s the women who raise the boys who become the men.

I don't think there is anything ‘we’ can do except promote Western values, keep producing art and entertainment, keep supporting those who are creating the change they want to see etc etc.

[CrgT16]

Forget trying to change or “westernise” these countries. Want for change needs to come from within. Yes we may help but there needs to be a strong resistance already. Anything else is just being fanciful. The moment we get out the old cockroaches come out from hiding.

I have no desire to change their ways or interfere but I do have an interest if places like that are a breeding ground for terrorist attacks that can affect me. Maybe it’s an hypocritical view but let’s face it… it’s the world we live in. The fact is the world would not sustain western type way of living. Our living standards are only possible because millions of people live below the poverty line… let’s not kid ourselves.

We simply cannot help/change all the world to our standards and the human tragedy happening in Africa, Asia and other places will continue for many many years.

It’s a shame but there is very little we can do unless we change our standard of quality of life. Basically being it down so everyone else can move theirs up a bit…

[s1962a]

CrgT16 said:

I have no desire to change their ways or interfere but I do have an interest if places like that are a breeding ground for terrorist attacks that can affect me

If we shouldn't interfere or care, then maybe we should give them their $7bn of frozen funds. We can't on one hand say we're washing our hands of a mess we created, and then on the other hand withold their funds.

https://thediplomat.com/2024/01/many-questions-rem...

[JagLover]

2xChevrons said:

And those sums were nothing in line with what was - is - actually needed for nationbuilding. Look at the scale of funding and aid (material, political, administrative, industrial) given to Germany and Japan after WW2 and, as you say, in Germany it was at least more a case of 'reversion' rather than construction.

Afghanistan received $39bn in economic aid and $91bn in military aid. Military spending by western forces in Afghanistan exceeded $1 trillion on top of that.

If you allow for inflation, economic aid and loans to west Germany were around that level of economic aid during the Marshall plan period.

You cannot build a western society and economy in a tribal society subject to religious fanaticism. Hopefully the experience means that we will not be repeating the mistake any time soon.

[2xChevrons]

CrgT16 said:

Forget trying to change or “westernise” these countries. Want for change needs to come from within. Yes we may help but there needs to be a strong resistance already. Anything else is just being fanciful. The moment we get out the old cockroaches come out from hiding.

I'm absolutely not an advocate of Blair/Bush style "interventionist liberalism", but the starting point of writing off swathes of the world as incapable of or uninterested in (what might be loosely called) 'progressing' is rather unfair.

As the picture posted earlier in the thread hints at, Afghanistan was a far more socially and economically modern place 60 years ago than it was 10 or 20 years ago. So was Iran. Both governed by authoritarian and politically restrictive rulers backed by respective superpowers on either side of the Cold War, but giving lie to the idea that these societies are just lagging behind or have no scope for improvement.

Even today a large chunk of Syria is controlled by a group fighting to establish a secular, pluralist, democratic, feminist and multiethnic state.

[Oliver Hardy]

A bit off topic but it is interesting (to me at least) that the majority of converts to Islam in the West are women, I think the figure is 75%, that might be just UK.

[fido]

williamp said:

Luckily for them, the Americans left behind a few bits and bobs..

Seems rather convenient that stuff was left behind. Is it possible they were left intentionally - those helicopters and vehicles will need spare parts - and this gives the US some leverage on how they behave?

[JagLover]

fido said:

Seems rather convenient that stuff was left behind. Is it possible they were left intentionally - those helicopters and vehicles will need spare parts - and this gives the US some leverage on how they behave?

America cares more about the high tech stuff. Many things on that list wouldn't have been worth the trouble of trying to extract in the first place.

[CrgT16]

I agree… give them what it’s theirs… just be careful not to be funding terror attacks.

If they are a peace loving country but with their own set of values by all means give the funds back.

At present they are a rogue country so perhaps we have to hold on to the assets as yet.

Like I said we have to be realist and either try to fight the world and improve life for everyone, comes with the cost of our own lifestyle. Maybe that’s the right thing to do if our heart is in the right place.

If not, we are all hypocrites and only “intervene” when there is something in for us… this seems to be the case at the moment. That something can be military contracts, rebuilding contracts, etc it is certainly about money first and about the people second.

If not how can we justify children in Africa still not having water and dying from famine… surely we should intervene? What about Syria? What about the Kurds, or countries like Haiti, Belize, Honduras…. The list is endless… In the end western governments look after themselves with some superficial approaches in some countries that make headlines but it’s all but a drop in the ocean.

I do not have an answer but understand that a lot of people suffering enables my lifestyle and really I could cope with less easily if I was assured those people would benefit. Sad thing is that they wouldn’t. So I am grateful I was born in a modern western country that afford me safety, healthy and I want for nothing. It could be a different story if I was born elsewhere. It is just pot luck.

[williamp]

The UN also has a new leader for the Womens rights commission...

...Saudi Arabia.!!

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/mar/27/saud...

I cannot imagien a peak of noise about the plight of women in Afghanistan. The silence will be deafening.

Now Israel, of course...

[hidetheelephants]

grumbledoak said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

1) Free elections.
2)He didn't do what the Presdent Of the USA wanted when he was asked to provide dirt on political opponents.
3) At the time People were saying he was a Rusian puppet:
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trump-ukraine...
4) Cite some evidence he's a puppet?

Yes, he was elected. On a "peace" ticket that he turned his back on.
And yes, puppet. Even when Russia agreed to peace terms having achieved their objectives in a "special operation" that Ukraine could never win, Zelensky could not accept without permission. Which Boris flew out to deny him.

Anyway, Afghanistan's women.

You really are through the looking glass. He refused to mobilise Ukraine's armed forces despite the US and everyone else's warnings that Russia massing 300k troops on the border was an invasion and not an exercise because he didn't want to cause civilian panic or provoke Russia. If he had mobilised even a few days prior the invasion force would been utterly pumped. If he's a puppet he was a russian one. He wasn't though, just misguided.

JagLover said:

s1962a said:

I disagree that the extreme interpretation of Islam is how the majority of afghans want to live their lives. The Taliban crush dissent and are an authoritarian rule, which we helped with. Apparently the CIA had ties with Bin Laden when the Taliban were fighting the russians.

That would be a bit hard since the Taliban were formed in religious schools in Pakistan after the Soviet war in Afghanistan was over. They may have recruited some former Mujahedeen into their ranks but that is where the movement originated.

It is a pretence of some that Islamic extremism is primarily due to the west.

Who props up Pakistan? Aside from US subsidy a lot of money from the oil states.

gregs656 said:

Christopher Hitchens said when he first went to highly conservative Islam culture he expected the women to be the subversive ones. Then he realised it’s the women who raise the boys who become the men.

They don't always raise them, that's part of the problem; some get carted off to madrassahs and taught to hate everything, especially sex.

fido said:

williamp said:

Luckily for them, the Americans left behind a few bits and bobs..

Seems rather convenient that stuff was left behind. Is it possible they were left intentionally - those helicopters and vehicles will need spare parts - and this gives the US some leverage on how they behave?

It's a load of rubbish; the ANA were equipped with gear like that but not nearly in those quantities, the stuff abandoned by the US was a fraction of that and most was disabled in some way prior to Operation GTF.

Edited by hidetheelephants on Friday 29th March 22:52