£5000 subsidy for electric cars.

[Mr Gear]

s2art said:

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Talksteer said:

The GM estimates that the average Volt user will only fill there car up less than 6 times a year, when it does run in range extender mode it will still be very efficient.

If the range extender is as advanced and efficient as modern diesels then sure. But then why bother with the electric bit?

Because then you use the fossil fuel less. A lot less.

Nope. Read the thread.

Yes, read it, and lots of others like it, and it re-enforces my opinion that anti-hybrid head-in-the-sand jokers like yourself just don't want to know even when the facts are staring them in the face.

[Mr Gear]

s2art said:

Read the rest of the thread, its all been addressed. Real world figures for the pious are more like high 40's.

Read it. What are real-world figures for the A3?

[s2art]

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Talksteer said:

The GM estimates that the average Volt user will only fill there car up less than 6 times a year, when it does run in range extender mode it will still be very efficient.

If the range extender is as advanced and efficient as modern diesels then sure. But then why bother with the electric bit?

Because then you use the fossil fuel less. A lot less.

Nope. Read the thread.

Yes, read it, and lots of others like it, and it re-enforces my opinion that anti-hybrid head-in-the-sand jokers like yourself just don't want to know even when the facts are staring them in the face.

Then you are apparently incapable of understanding what has been posted. Go back to school for remedial reading lessons.

[XitUp]

s2art said:

XitUp said:

Yep. Read the thread.

Once more;

http://www.transport-watch.co.uk/transport-fact-sh...

Same principle applies to getting the apparent advantage for hybrids. Charging up from the grid is not green.

Once more, the 40% figure is very optimistic.

[s2art]

XitUp said:

s2art said:

XitUp said:

Yep. Read the thread.

Once more;

http://www.transport-watch.co.uk/transport-fact-sh...

Same principle applies to getting the apparent advantage for hybrids. Charging up from the grid is not green.

Once more, the 40% figure is very optimistic.

Then call it 35%, it would still come to the same conclusion.

[esselte]

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Talksteer said:

The GM estimates that the average Volt user will only fill there car up less than 6 times a year, when it does run in range extender mode it will still be very efficient.

If the range extender is as advanced and efficient as modern diesels then sure. But then why bother with the electric bit?

Because then you use the fossil fuel less. A lot less.

Nope. Read the thread.

Yes, read it, and lots of others like it, and it re-enforces my opinion that anti-hybrid head-in-the-sand jokers like yourself just don't want to know even when the facts are staring them in the face.

I have a diesel mondeo estate and get real world fuel economy of 46mpg...I figure that compares very favourably with the real world prius figure....so how come the prius is considered green yet my mondeo won't be..? Is it just image and hype or is there any solid reason?

[s2art]

esselte said:

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Talksteer said:

The GM estimates that the average Volt user will only fill there car up less than 6 times a year, when it does run in range extender mode it will still be very efficient.

If the range extender is as advanced and efficient as modern diesels then sure. But then why bother with the electric bit?

Because then you use the fossil fuel less. A lot less.

Nope. Read the thread.

Yes, read it, and lots of others like it, and it re-enforces my opinion that anti-hybrid head-in-the-sand jokers like yourself just don't want to know even when the facts are staring them in the face.

I have a diesel mondeo estate and get real world fuel economy of 46mpg...I figure that compares very favourably with the real world prius figure....so how come the prius is considered green yet my mondeo won't be..? Is it just image and hype or is there any solid reason?

The pious would be noticeably greener if you are in the habit of doing mostly short jouneys, thats all. And that is only because there is no block heater on your mondeo. (not very efficient until its warm)

[Mr Gear]

esselte said:

I have a diesel mondeo estate and get real world fuel economy of 46mpg...I figure that compares very favourably with the real world prius figure....so how come the prius is considered green yet my mondeo won't be..? Is it just image and hype or is there any solid reason?

Because a Prius doesn't sit there stinking and fuming in traffic... the natural environment of a hybrid, and the place where cutting emissions is most useful and beneficial to people.

On a stop-start journey the Prius WILL Be better than your Mondeo. On a backroads blast or 90mph motorway thrash, the Mondeo is more relaxed. Horses for corses... if all you do is pull onto the sliproad and then put your foot to the floor, the Prius isn't the ideal option, but then a big diesel estate isn't the best car for city driving. Either from your point of view as the owner or from those around you.

Edited by Mr Gear on Wednesday 22 April 14:08

[esselte]

s2art said:

esselte said:

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Talksteer said:

The GM estimates that the average Volt user will only fill there car up less than 6 times a year, when it does run in range extender mode it will still be very efficient.

If the range extender is as advanced and efficient as modern diesels then sure. But then why bother with the electric bit?

Because then you use the fossil fuel less. A lot less.

Nope. Read the thread.

Yes, read it, and lots of others like it, and it re-enforces my opinion that anti-hybrid head-in-the-sand jokers like yourself just don't want to know even when the facts are staring them in the face.

I have a diesel mondeo estate and get real world fuel economy of 46mpg...I figure that compares very favourably with the real world prius figure....so how come the prius is considered green yet my mondeo won't be..? Is it just image and hype or is there any solid reason?

The pious would be noticeably greener if you are in the habit of doing mostly short jouneys, thats all. And that is only because there is no block heater on your mondeo. (not very efficient until its warm)

If you're only doing very short journeys would you really need a car? I do over 40k miles/annum on all sorts of journeys by the way..I have read some forums where prius owners post and have to chuckle..they say they can get 50mpg if they coast a lot,turn the A/C off and up the pressure in their tyres...the prius seems to be no more than a successful marketing project..

[s2art]

esselte said:

s2art said:

esselte said:

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Mr Gear said:

s2art said:

Talksteer said:

The GM estimates that the average Volt user will only fill there car up less than 6 times a year, when it does run in range extender mode it will still be very efficient.

If the range extender is as advanced and efficient as modern diesels then sure. But then why bother with the electric bit?

Because then you use the fossil fuel less. A lot less.

Nope. Read the thread.

Yes, read it, and lots of others like it, and it re-enforces my opinion that anti-hybrid head-in-the-sand jokers like yourself just don't want to know even when the facts are staring them in the face.

I have a diesel mondeo estate and get real world fuel economy of 46mpg...I figure that compares very favourably with the real world prius figure....so how come the prius is considered green yet my mondeo won't be..? Is it just image and hype or is there any solid reason?

The pious would be noticeably greener if you are in the habit of doing mostly short jouneys, thats all. And that is only because there is no block heater on your mondeo. (not very efficient until its warm)

If you're only doing very short journeys would you really need a car? I do over 40k miles/annum on all sorts of journeys by the way..I have read some forums where prius owners post and have to chuckle..they say they can get 50mpg if they coast a lot,turn the A/C off and up the pressure in their tyres...the prius seems to be no more than a successful marketing project..

Personally I use the car to go to the shops half a mile away...... YMMV.
But yes, I agree.

[XitUp]

s2art said:

XitUp said:

s2art said:

XitUp said:

Yep. Read the thread.

Once more;

http://www.transport-watch.co.uk/transport-fact-sh...

Same principle applies to getting the apparent advantage for hybrids. Charging up from the grid is not green.

Once more, the 40% figure is very optimistic.

Then call it 35%, it would still come to the same conclusion.

It would. If you were using the figures for inefficiencies in electricity production from your source (which most others I've seen disagree with).
And if you had anything showing where you got that 35% from.
And we assume that over the next few decades as electric cars become more common we won't be moving away from coal power (which we will).

esselte said:

I have a diesel mondeo estate and get real world fuel economy of 46mpg...I figure that compares very favourably with the real world prius figure....so how come the prius is considered green yet my mondeo won't be..? Is it just image and hype or is there any solid reason?

Because you are putting out way more PM and NOx. And more CO2 if that's what you're into because there is more per ltr of diesel than petrol.

[esselte]

XitUp said:

And more CO2 if that's what you're into because there is more per ltr of diesel than petrol.

Seriously interested now..if that's the case how come all diesel cars have a lower C02 output than their petrol equivalents...?

[s2art]

XitUp said:

s2art said:

XitUp said:

s2art said:

XitUp said:

Yep. Read the thread.

Once more;

http://www.transport-watch.co.uk/transport-fact-sh...

Same principle applies to getting the apparent advantage for hybrids. Charging up from the grid is not green.

Once more, the 40% figure is very optimistic.

Then call it 35%, it would still come to the same conclusion.

It would. If you were using the figures for inefficiencies in electricity production from your source (which most others I've seen disagree with).
And if you had anything showing where you got that 35% from.
And we assume that over the next few decades as electric cars become more common we won't be moving away from coal power (which we will).

esselte said:

I have a diesel mondeo estate and get real world fuel economy of 46mpg...I figure that compares very favourably with the real world prius figure....so how come the prius is considered green yet my mondeo won't be..? Is it just image and hype or is there any solid reason?

Because you are putting out way more PM and NOx. And more CO2 if that's what you're into because there is more per ltr of diesel than petrol.

Its gone beyond a joke now. The whole world accepts efficiencies in the mid to high 30's for the latest gen diesels. Some will be better (those with the most advanced gearboxes, for the same reason the Pious uses a CVT)
No point arguing that, if only the UK power generation was greener than it would all be different. There is no prospect of that for a decade or more. If and when it happens we can re-evaluate. And I posted the link directly from the body reponsible for the energy producers. Those are their figures. And likely to be optimistic if anything.

[XitUp]

esselte said:

XitUp said:

And more CO2 if that's what you're into because there is more per ltr of diesel than petrol.

Seriously interested now..if that's the case how come all diesel cars have a lower C02 output than their petrol equivalents...?

Because they are more efficient than their petrol equivelants. They burn less fuel per mile but the fuel has more energy in it/releases more CO2 per unit.

s2art said:

Its gone beyond a joke now. The whole world accepts efficiencies in the mid to high 30's for the latest gen diesels. Some will be better (those with the most advanced gearboxes, for the same reason the Pious uses a CVT)
No point arguing that, if only the UK power generation was greener than it would all be different. There is no prospect of that for a decade or more. If and when it happens we can re-evaluate. And I posted the link directly from the body reponsible for the energy producers. Those are their figures. And likely to be optimistic if anything.

If the whole worl accepts it then why are you having so much trouble showing me a study showing it?

I don't see the problem in discussing how cleaner power generation could be in the future as it's going to be a gradual shift to electrical cars.

[s2art]

XitUp said:

If the whole worl accepts it then why are you having so much trouble showing me a study showing it?

I don't see the problem in discussing how cleaner power generation could be in the future as it's going to be a gradual shift to electrical cars.

Because no-one has bothered putting one on the web. Its fairly academic whether a car gets 33% or 39% to the punters. What counts in the market place is real world fuel consumption. However there is sufficient information from other sources, many mentioned in this thread, to estimate the efficiency. And it will be mid 30's or higher.
We have discussed future power sources, nuclear and the like.Not relevant for another decade at least. Using electric cars now is not green, and it wont be for a long time. Remember that even with the nuclear program announced its replacing stuff not displacing all of the fossil fuel plants.

[XitUp]

s2art said:

Because no-one has bothered putting one on the web...

Best reasoning ever.

[turbobloke]

XitUp said:

Best reasoning ever.

Hardly. Viewing the automotive and wider world through green tinted specs is by far the worst example ever, and doesn't even qualify as reasoning since science and logic have been abandoned. It leads to avoidance of data that conflicts with the propagandised quasi-religious perspective, sidetracking, obfuscation, pointless tangential queries and the like - as evident in this thread.

[s2art]

XitUp said:

s2art said:

Because no-one has bothered putting one on the web...

Best reasoning ever.

Seems to be true. As an alternative look at the well-to-wheel numbers.
Even not taking the latest diesel cars into account the previous generation are similar to the pious, an electric car will fare worse for the reasons discussed already.

See; lorien.ncl.ac.uk/ming/carworks/Docs/WtWh.doc

[chris watton]

Here’s an idea, while the two types of car are still legally and commercially available, why don’t the people who want an electric car buy one, knowing they feel they’re doing their bit to ‘save the planet’ – and the people who don’t want one to buy what the hell they like without fear of moral rebuke.

On a personal level, I very much enjoy driving, which rules out electric cars for now at least – and I don’t mind at all paying for the fuel/tax because it is enjoyable – and if I work all week and pay my (very high) taxes each year, why should I be subject to emotive clap trap from people who do not share my passion? This is very much a UK disease, as it seems the rest of the continent adopts a more ‘live and let live’ attitude, having been out of the UK for well over a year and coming back, the way this government has us all at each other’s throats is quite astonishing – and pretty scary.

[s2art]

chris watton said:

Here’s an idea, while the two types of car are still legally and commercially available, why don’t the people who want an electric car buy one, knowing they feel they’re doing their bit to ‘save the planet’ – and the people who don’t want one to buy what the hell they like without fear of moral rebuke.

On a personal level, I very much enjoy driving, which rules out electric cars for now at least – and I don’t mind at all paying for the fuel/tax because it is enjoyable – and if I work all week and pay my (very high) taxes each year, why should I be subject to emotive clap trap from people who do not share my passion? This is very much a UK disease, as it seems the rest of the continent adopts a more ‘live and let live’ attitude, having been out of the UK for well over a year and coming back, the way this government has us all at each other’s throats is quite astonishing – and pretty scary.

The problem is that the government want to spunk our hard earned cash on pointless electric cars. Otherwise I agree.