£5000 subsidy for electric cars.
Discussion
Mr GrimNasty said:
What, that you can't even give electric cars away, re-sellers don't want then, makers are consolidating models because of lack of interest, markets without massive subsidy/compulsion are shrinking, that the only way electric cars will become mainstream is by compulsion, because they are a bad engineering solution to a non-existent problem, and if they did become mainstream, we wouldn't have the grid generating capacity to power them.
Ford have said they will have 13 new EV's by 2020, you might want to let them know about the shrinking market thing.With regard to capacity, are you confusing peak POWER with ENERGY capacity? The average driver would need kWh per day. Unless your lights go out when you cook a meal then thats not a lot of energy, especially if you plan to charge overnight like most people would.
98elise said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
What, that you can't even give electric cars away, re-sellers don't want then, makers are consolidating models because of lack of interest, markets without massive subsidy/compulsion are shrinking, that the only way electric cars will become mainstream is by compulsion, because they are a bad engineering solution to a non-existent problem, and if they did become mainstream, we wouldn't have the grid generating capacity to power them.
Ford have said they will have 13 new EV's by 2020, you might want to let them know about the shrinking market thing.
I think the interesting calculation might be - on average, how far does a car drive in a day? On average, how many kWh of charging does that require? On average, how long does a car spend sat doing nothing? If you can provide charging at the various points it spends sat doing nothing, so that the charge is spread out over that whole idle period, how many kW does it actually need to draw?
The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
otolith said:
I think the interesting calculation might be - on average, how far does a car drive in a day? On average, how many kWh of charging does that require? On average, how long does a car spend sat doing nothing? If you can provide charging at the various points it spends sat doing nothing, so that the charge is spread out over that whole idle period, how many kW does it actually need to draw?
The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
Too optimistic. Maybe a Leaf can do that in ideal conditions, but try it in the dark and cold in winter. And as you say, a Leaf isnt going to suit most people, many need bigger, more potential range and will use more power.The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
And you didnt factor in charging losses. A safer bet would be 4 or 5 times your estimate.
turbobloke said:
98elise said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
What, that you can't even give electric cars away, re-sellers don't want then, makers are consolidating models because of lack of interest, markets without massive subsidy/compulsion are shrinking, that the only way electric cars will become mainstream is by compulsion, because they are a bad engineering solution to a non-existent problem, and if they did become mainstream, we wouldn't have the grid generating capacity to power them.
Ford have said they will have 13 new EV's by 2020, you might want to let them know about the shrinking market thing.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_v...
Pablo16v said:
turbobloke said:
98elise said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
What, that you can't even give electric cars away, re-sellers don't want then, makers are consolidating models because of lack of interest, markets without massive subsidy/compulsion are shrinking, that the only way electric cars will become mainstream is by compulsion, because they are a bad engineering solution to a non-existent problem, and if they did become mainstream, we wouldn't have the grid generating capacity to power them.
Ford have said they will have 13 new EV's by 2020, you might want to let them know about the shrinking market thing.https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_electric_v...
s2art said:
otolith said:
I think the interesting calculation might be - on average, how far does a car drive in a day? On average, how many kWh of charging does that require? On average, how long does a car spend sat doing nothing? If you can provide charging at the various points it spends sat doing nothing, so that the charge is spread out over that whole idle period, how many kW does it actually need to draw?
The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
Too optimistic. Maybe a Leaf can do that in ideal conditions, but try it in the dark and cold in winter. And as you say, a Leaf isnt going to suit most people, many need bigger, more potential range and will use more power.The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
And you didnt factor in charging losses. A safer bet would be 4 or 5 times your estimate.
s2art said:
98elise said:
The average driver would need kWh per day. Unless your lights go out when you cook a meal then thats not a lot of energy, especially if you plan to charge overnight like most people would.
? What is the basis of this claim? A KWh per day???"need kWh per day" doesn't even mean "A kWh per day"
s2art said:
otolith said:
I think the interesting calculation might be - on average, how far does a car drive in a day? On average, how many kWh of charging does that require? On average, how long does a car spend sat doing nothing? If you can provide charging at the various points it spends sat doing nothing, so that the charge is spread out over that whole idle period, how many kW does it actually need to draw?
The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
Too optimistic. Maybe a Leaf can do that in ideal conditions, but try it in the dark and cold in winter. And as you say, a Leaf isnt going to suit most people, many need bigger, more potential range and will use more power.The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
And you didnt factor in charging losses. A safer bet would be 4 or 5 times your estimate.
A powerful EV with a bigger battery does not use more power to move it. EV's don't bleed power like ICE's do through heat losses. EV's typically use about 0.3kWh per mile.
Take for example the Tesla S. Regardless of the peak power options (from 400 to nearly 800bhp) the efficiency remains almost identical in like for like driving. Its also backed up by simple physics. To move two objects at a set speed you need to counter the losses. In and EV the losses are pretty much the same (rolling resistance and drag). In an ICE there is also a considerable loss in just running the engine.
Why do you think cold and dark will multiply your energy needs by 500%? It will probably be more like 10-20%.
98elise said:
s2art said:
otolith said:
I think the interesting calculation might be - on average, how far does a car drive in a day? On average, how many kWh of charging does that require? On average, how long does a car spend sat doing nothing? If you can provide charging at the various points it spends sat doing nothing, so that the charge is spread out over that whole idle period, how many kW does it actually need to draw?
The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
Too optimistic. Maybe a Leaf can do that in ideal conditions, but try it in the dark and cold in winter. And as you say, a Leaf isnt going to suit most people, many need bigger, more potential range and will use more power.The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
And you didnt factor in charging losses. A safer bet would be 4 or 5 times your estimate.
A powerful EV with a bigger battery does not use more power to move it. EV's don't bleed power like ICE's do through heat losses. EV's typically use about 0.3kWh per mile.
Take for example the Tesla S. Regardless of the peak power options (from 400 to nearly 800bhp) the efficiency remains almost identical in like for like driving. Its also backed up by simple physics. To move two objects at a set speed you need to counter the losses. In and EV the losses are pretty much the same (rolling resistance and drag). In an ICE there is also a considerable loss in just running the engine.
Why do you think cold and dark will multiply your energy needs by 500%? It will probably be more like 10-20%.
Why cold and dark means greater consumption? Just how much power will heating and lights consume? On a cold winter day the heater alone will need over 1Kw or much more depending on the car size. So just sitting in the traffic with heater and lights on (and all the other electrical equipment drain) will require well in excess of 1KW. And you need to add approx 20% for charging and discharging losses.
Edited to add: Some Tesla owners have measured 7Kw for the heater.
See https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/how-mu...
Edited by s2art on Wednesday 10th February 14:07
s2art said:
98elise said:
s2art said:
otolith said:
I think the interesting calculation might be - on average, how far does a car drive in a day? On average, how many kWh of charging does that require? On average, how long does a car spend sat doing nothing? If you can provide charging at the various points it spends sat doing nothing, so that the charge is spread out over that whole idle period, how many kW does it actually need to draw?
The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
Too optimistic. Maybe a Leaf can do that in ideal conditions, but try it in the dark and cold in winter. And as you say, a Leaf isnt going to suit most people, many need bigger, more potential range and will use more power.The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
And you didnt factor in charging losses. A safer bet would be 4 or 5 times your estimate.
A powerful EV with a bigger battery does not use more power to move it. EV's don't bleed power like ICE's do through heat losses. EV's typically use about 0.3kWh per mile.
Take for example the Tesla S. Regardless of the peak power options (from 400 to nearly 800bhp) the efficiency remains almost identical in like for like driving. Its also backed up by simple physics. To move two objects at a set speed you need to counter the losses. In and EV the losses are pretty much the same (rolling resistance and drag). In an ICE there is also a considerable loss in just running the engine.
Why do you think cold and dark will multiply your energy needs by 500%? It will probably be more like 10-20%.
Why cold and dark means greater consumption? Just how much power will heating and lights consume? On a cold winter day the heater alone will need over 1Kw or much more depending on the car size. So just sitting in the traffic with heater and lights on (and all the other electrical equipment drain) will require well in excess of 1KW. And you need to add approx 20% for charging and discharging losses.
Edited to add: Some Tesla owners have measured 7Kw for the heater.
See https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/how-mu...
Edited by s2art on Wednesday 10th February 14:07
s2art said:
98elise said:
s2art said:
otolith said:
I think the interesting calculation might be - on average, how far does a car drive in a day? On average, how many kWh of charging does that require? On average, how long does a car spend sat doing nothing? If you can provide charging at the various points it spends sat doing nothing, so that the charge is spread out over that whole idle period, how many kW does it actually need to draw?
The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
Too optimistic. Maybe a Leaf can do that in ideal conditions, but try it in the dark and cold in winter. And as you say, a Leaf isnt going to suit most people, many need bigger, more potential range and will use more power.The average car does 7900 miles a year, so about 22 a day. Using the EPA economy figure rather than the battery capacity/max range numbers, a Nissan Leaf needs about 6 kWh to cover that distance. If we assume a worse case situation where that the entire mileage is done crawling in traffic at 10mph, that still leaves 22 hours of charging time. If you can plug it in at home and plug it in at your destination, I make that an average consumption of 273 watts.
Obviously the daily consumption is going to vary, with some cars being less efficient than a little snail like the Leaf, but if we move away from the assumption that we run the cars empty and then try to recharge them to full as quickly as possible with as much power as we can cram in without blowing them up or burning out the substation, the numbers look a lot less inconvenient.
And you didnt factor in charging losses. A safer bet would be 4 or 5 times your estimate.
A powerful EV with a bigger battery does not use more power to move it. EV's don't bleed power like ICE's do through heat losses. EV's typically use about 0.3kWh per mile.
Take for example the Tesla S. Regardless of the peak power options (from 400 to nearly 800bhp) the efficiency remains almost identical in like for like driving. Its also backed up by simple physics. To move two objects at a set speed you need to counter the losses. In and EV the losses are pretty much the same (rolling resistance and drag). In an ICE there is also a considerable loss in just running the engine.
Why do you think cold and dark will multiply your energy needs by 500%? It will probably be more like 10-20%.
Why cold and dark means greater consumption? Just how much power will heating and lights consume? On a cold winter day the heater alone will need over 1Kw or much more depending on the car size. So just sitting in the traffic with heater and lights on (and all the other electrical equipment drain) will require well in excess of 1KW. And you need to add approx 20% for charging and discharging losses.
Edited to add: Some Tesla owners have measured 7Kw for the heater.
See https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum/forums/how-mu...
Edited by s2art on Wednesday 10th February 14:07
Its pointless quoting peak power for heating. Unless you live in Alaska the average will be more like 2kW, so the heater would last about 40 hours. Driving will consume the battery in about 4-5 hours. Thats about 10% so i'm still not seeing the 500% you claim.
Edited to add....a quick poke around the internet says its 7-15% range loss when needing the heaters on a tesla (thats from owners rather than manufacturer claims)
Edited by 98elise on Wednesday 10th February 19:54
Surely the peak power for heating being quoted is those first few minutes when the heat pump is on full welly and supplemented by the resistance heating, plus heated seats etc etc etc.
Anyway even if it is 7kw for a short time then SFW.
Even in the extreme cold weather recently over on the EV forum people were saying that the range fir a Leaf dropped down to 60 miles.
So for a 10 mile each way commute, it matters not a single bean.
If someone has a commute which means that they can't do it reliably on a single charge and they don't have a definite charging point at the other end, humbly suggest they've bought the wrong car.
Anyway even if it is 7kw for a short time then SFW.
Even in the extreme cold weather recently over on the EV forum people were saying that the range fir a Leaf dropped down to 60 miles.
So for a 10 mile each way commute, it matters not a single bean.
If someone has a commute which means that they can't do it reliably on a single charge and they don't have a definite charging point at the other end, humbly suggest they've bought the wrong car.
Mr GrimNasty said:
Or a laptop or a smartphone.....BigBen said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
Or a laptop or a smartphone.....http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_310_...
It's a good job that the only components of any car involving unethical sourcing are exclusively found in EVs, though.
otolith said:
BigBen said:
Mr GrimNasty said:
Or a laptop or a smartphone.....http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_310_...
It's a good job that the only components of any car involving unethical sourcing are exclusively found in EVs, though.
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