Banning the Burqini...

[Jasandjules]

zac510 said:

In effect, and perhaps not intentionally, the French are pushing Western values onto them too.

I agree, however I believe it is quite intentional.

Integration into a Western Country by definition would require a bit of "Westernisation" would it not?

[Hedders]

Jasandjules said:

zac510 said:

In effect, and perhaps not intentionally, the French are pushing Western values onto them too.

I agree, however I believe it is quite intentional.

Integration into a Western Country by definition would require a bit of "Westernisation" would it not?

They seem to have integrated into the western benefits and healthcare system without too much complaining!

[Colonial]

zac510 said:

In effect, and perhaps not intentionally, the French are pushing Western values onto them too.

Well, they did chose to live in a western country...

[JonRB]

Colonial said:

zac510 said:

In effect, and perhaps not intentionally, the French are pushing Western values onto them too.

Well, they did chose to live in a western country...

Indeed. The clue is in the word "integration". They are being asked to integrate into an existing society, not for the existing society to pander to them.

I admire the French in this respect. I wish our country was less willing to toady to every minority group going.

Edited by JonRB on Monday 24th August 13:08

[Rude-boy]

Hang on all i think we are missing something rather important here.

Just how many fit young German Ladyz [sic] go swimming un-attired. I think we should know...

[Scraggles]

local pool has women only sessions, but not male only sessions... luckily not enough muslims locally to justify this mad scheme

[Zod]

There are two good reasons for banning the burqini:

1. it is unsuitable for swimming;

2. it is not required by the Koran, any more than the burqa or any other oppressive garments for women.

[Muntu]

Zod said:

There are two good reasons for banning the burqini:

1. it is unsuitable for swimming;

2. it is not required by the Koran, any more than the burqa or any other oppressive garments for women.

1. Correct, One good reason amongst many others

2. Whether it is required by the qoran or not is irrelevant, 98% of the UK population are not daft enough to live their lives in line with the writings of a 14th century illiterate

[AndrewW-G]

Muntu said:

Zod said:

There are two good reasons for banning the burqini:

1. it is unsuitable for swimming;

2. it is not required by the Koran, any more than the burqa or any other oppressive garments for women.

1. Correct, One good reason amongst many others

2. Whether it is required by the qoran or not is irrelevant, 98% of the UK population are not daft enough to live their lives in line with the writings of a 14th century illiterate

Muhammad (if thats who you mean) was born in the later part of the 6th Century AD (approx 570AD) It's believed that rather than being illiterate, he was just unscriptured, it is believed that the word for both was used for both meanings around that time. a quick bit of research show's up a character who is of his time and definatley not somebody who should be viewed as a good example and role model in the 21st century

The Koran is still a load of rubbish though, just like the bible and all other religions books that remove the freedom of an individual to think

Edited by AndrewW-G on Monday 24th August 23:59

[klootzak]

While we're banning people's choice in swimwear, perhaps we could ban some other offensive clothing.

Personally, I'd start with trainers, hoodies, those horrid Pringle jumpers, and trousers that hang around the wearer's bottom.

Moccasins would be next up, and maybe also tee-shirts with big logos on them.

Better yet, perhaps we should all wear exactly the same clothes. An outfit fully approved by the contributors to PH.

Maybe it could include a brown shirt.

k

[Colonial]

klootzak said:

While we're banning people's choice in swimwear, perhaps we could ban some other offensive clothing.

Personally, I'd start with trainers, hoodies, those horrid Pringle jumpers, and trousers that hang around the wearer's bottom.

Moccasins would be next up, and maybe also tee-shirts with big logos on them.

Better yet, perhaps we should all wear exactly the same clothes. An outfit fully approved by the contributors to PH.

Maybe it could include a brown shirt.

k

Congratulations. You have implied we are all fascists. Here. Have an e-cookie for that subtle disply of smug superiority.

It is not a question of wearing the same thing. It is a fundamental question of how should western countries deal with the question of intergration into the societal norm.

[klootzak]

Colonial said:

It is not a question of wearing the same thing. It is a fundamental question of how should western countries deal with the question of intergration into the societal norm.

Exactly. I'm glad we agree on this point.

In "western countries" the "societal norm" is for freedom of choice. You can wear whatever you like and I can wear whatever I like.

If you want to go swimming in a pair of ill-advised budgie-smugglers, that's between you and your conscience (or your ability to ignore the guffaws of nearby women).

If I want to go swimming in a Boss suit, that's my prerogative, however stupid. In much the same way as women in the west are free to choose a bikini or a burquini.

Regrettably, the same isn't true in some Islamic states. But you weren't whingeing about that were you, you were whingeing about people choosing to wear something you think is culturally inappropriate. Which sounds a lot like the sort of thing a fundamentalist muslim might get cross about.

k

[Scraggles]

whilst i lived in saudi, would get one woman drowning every few months after getting into difficulties by being weighed down by a burqua

it is of course a cultral thing and not mentioned in the fairy story known as the koran - ran out of bog paper once and some guy had given me a copy of the koran, was so relived burnt the wupings on the fire later, guess it is about all it is good for

[Colonial]

klootzak said:

Colonial said:

It is not a question of wearing the same thing. It is a fundamental question of how should western countries deal with the question of intergration into the societal norm.

Exactly. I'm glad we agree on this point.

In "western countries" the "societal norm" is for freedom of choice. You can wear whatever you like and I can wear whatever I like.

If you want to go swimming in a pair of ill-advised budgie-smugglers, that's between you and your conscience (or your ability to ignore the guffaws of nearby women).

If I want to go swimming in a Boss suit, that's my prerogative, however stupid. In much the same way as women in the west are free to choose a bikini or a burquini.

Regrettably, the same isn't true in some Islamic states. But you weren't whingeing about that were you, you were whingeing about people choosing to wear something you think is culturally inappropriate. Which sounds a lot like the sort of thing a fundamentalist muslim might get cross about.

k

Maybe I didn't make myself clear on this one.

There is talk around the country of closing down beaches (that's right, beaches. Public open space. Not even a private swimming pool) to allow for Muslims to swim without being "confronted" by semi naked bodies. That, combined with the abuse levelled at women who wear bikini's on the beach by (mainly Lebanese it has to be said) men is disgusting. I live in a beachside suburb so see it every summer.

Considering the main religious leader in Sydney said that most women deserved to get raped because they don't wear enough clothes and you can see why I might be a little concerned about this progression.

I can understand why there is opposition to this. The western secular system is pressure to my mind, and one which is (now) built on a recognition of equality between the sexes. To then introduce something which is a thoroughly backwards step, and then try to further enforce others to wear it for fear of upsetting a very small minority is just too much of a step for a society to take.

I have a problem with people wearing it on an equality ground, but I recognise their freedom to wear it, even if that freedom is not returned in some countries. However, to try and impose your own backwards (and I acknowledged that the term backwards is both culturally loaded and a condescending judgement call) views on another society is simply not on.

[JonRB]

klootzak said:

In "western countries" the "societal norm" is for freedom of choice. You can wear whatever you like and I can wear whatever I like.

Not strictly true actually. Western women can wear whatever they want, whereas the men can't. If a woman wears guys clothes then she's a woman wearing guys clothes. If a guy wears women's clothes then he is a tranny / freak / queer / pervert / deviant (delete as applicable depending on level of bigotry)

The point being that even our society imposes certain restrictions on attire, no matter how enlightened we believe ourselves to be.

[Muntu]

AndrewW-G said:

Muhammad (if thats who you mean) was born in the later part of the 6th Century AD (approx 570AD) It's believed that rather than being illiterate, he was just unscriptured, it is believed that the word for both was used for both meanings around that time. a quick bit of research show's up a character who is of his time and definatley not somebody who should be viewed as a good example and role model in the 21st century

The Koran is still a load of rubbish though, just like the bible and all other religions books that remove the freedom of an individual to think

Oops, I stand corrected!

[Hedders]

klootzak said:

If I want to go swimming in a Boss suit, that's my prerogative, however stupid. In much the same way as women in the west are free to choose a bikini or a burquini.

That is not true though is it! Go to your local pool and ask if you can swim in your street clothing!

Edited by Hedders on Tuesday 25th August 11:07

[BlackLabel]

Several years on this issue is back in the news as more than a dozen French towns have now banned the burkini.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/19/nice...

And they are not holding back in enforcing the ban.

"Photographs have emerged of armed French police confronting a woman on a beach and making her remove a burkini as part of a controversial ban on the swimwear"

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/24/fren...

Telling people what they can and can't wear in public seems OTT to me. Unless something is security risk (eg a full face covering), a hygiene/public health issue or a public decency issue then should women really be told what they can and can't wear on a beach?

[ReallyReallyGood]

It's about integration rather than clothing, the burkini is just a highly visible symbol of integration into Western culture (the burka is a cultural symbol, not religious, remember? )- who can blame France for feeling a bit uneasy about that right now.

[CoolHands]

They (French politician I think it was) described it as a 'uniform' hence why it isn't considered a freedom of choice of which clothes to wear. They said they shouldn't be allowed to wear a uniform of a terror organisation.