Banning the Burqini...

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Mothersruin

8,573 posts

98 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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Alpinestars said:
Mothersruin said:
Maybe, or most likely ingrained into her sense of modesty since a little girl by her family.

Just going on experience. Could be wrong.
Could be wrong but your bias won't allow you to see that she might have done it because she wanted to. Sexist?
My bias is borne of experience and from that I calculate probability. At least give me that credit. I not just making st up without even having a clue. I've spent a lot of time in Islamic states working with the locals, who I mostly liked and respected, and saw how the religion and culture held them back and didn't help them advance.

I may be bigoted, but at least I'm an educated bigot.

Edited by Mothersruin on Friday 26th August 14:37

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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Mothersruin said:
A colleague of my wife always wore 'western' dress at work and one day turned up in a niqab. Long term family pressure. One of the uncles had decided to become a bit more religiousy and threatened to have her 'escorted' back to Kuwait to marry a nice young man with a big beard if she didn't hold up the family's reputation.

Must have been a one off.
It's definitely not a one off and I think it is st.

Domestic violence and abuse is an ongoing problem in this country, all races and creeds.

Munter

31,319 posts

240 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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spitfire-ian said:
Sushhh they are too busy arguing about who knows another culture best.

Mothersruin

8,573 posts

98 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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Munter said:
spitfire-ian said:
Sushhh they are too busy arguing about who knows another culture best.
hehe

I profess to knowing it only as well as the average bloke who lived and worked in Islamic countries for 13 years.

Anyway, the cultures can be very different across the region.

Edited by Mothersruin on Friday 26th August 15:00

irocfan

40,154 posts

189 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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BJG1 said:
Qatar's rules are wrong though, why would we want to be more like that? A huge part of our culture is freedom of expression and choice. This is not something many middle eastern countries have and they are much the poorer for it.
isn't that a little racist/West-centric or supremacist? Surely if it's their country it's their rules - you may believe those rules to be wrong and/or archaic but that doesn't make them wrong surely?



BJG1 said:
I understand why the French are upset but that doesn't excuse this rule and if they want to get blown up again this is a bloody good way of going about it.
well let's be honest here have a ban and be blown up, not have a ban a be blown up... doesn't seem to make a jot of difference.


As for the facial coverings - IMO they should be banned. Try going to a bank or a pub or a.... actually a whole lot of places wearing a balaclava or motorcycle helmet and see how quickly you'll be asked/told to remove it, sauce for the goose and all that

Alpinestars

13,954 posts

243 months

Friday 26th August 2016
quotequote all
Mothersruin said:
My bias is borne of experience and from that I calculate probability. At least give me that credit. I not just making st up without even having a clue. I've spent a lot of time in Islamic states working with the locals, who I mostly liked and respected, and saw how the religion and culture held them back and didn't help them advance.

I may be bigoted, but at least I'm an educated bigot.

Edited by Mothersruin on Friday 26th August 14:37
Can't argue with that.

I suspect she did it of her own free will. I can't see a woman who is forced to cover up going to the beach for the day. If you look at the UK, I see lots more women wearing head coverings, especially at work. And you can bet your bottom dollar that's not forced upon them. The very young, I can understand that they could be dressed that way by their parents, but not the growing numbers who are old enough to do as they wish. The ME might be different.

Do you accept that if women wear coverings because they want to, that we should not interfere with their free choice?

BJG1

5,966 posts

211 months

Friday 26th August 2016
quotequote all
irocfan said:
BJG1 said:
Qatar's rules are wrong though, why would we want to be more like that? A huge part of our culture is freedom of expression and choice. This is not something many middle eastern countries have and they are much the poorer for it.
isn't that a little racist/West-centric or supremacist? Surely if it's their country it's their rules - you may believe those rules to be wrong and/or archaic but that doesn't make them wrong surely?



BJG1 said:
I understand why the French are upset but that doesn't excuse this rule and if they want to get blown up again this is a bloody good way of going about it.
well let's be honest here have a ban and be blown up, not have a ban a be blown up... doesn't seem to make a jot of difference.


As for the facial coverings - IMO they should be banned. Try going to a bank or a pub or a.... actually a whole lot of places wearing a balaclava or motorcycle helmet and see how quickly you'll be asked/told to remove it, sauce for the goose and all that
Nope, Qatar's laws are wrong and I'm comfortable saying that. They have laws based on a book full of nonsense that they mistakenly think actually means something. I'm perfectly comfortable saying banning the sale of pork and alcohol is wrong and that not allowing homosexuals to express their love for each other without being thrown in jail is wrong.

Mothersruin

8,573 posts

98 months

Friday 26th August 2016
quotequote all
Alpinestars said:
Mothersruin said:
My bias is borne of experience and from that I calculate probability. At least give me that credit. I not just making st up without even having a clue. I've spent a lot of time in Islamic states working with the locals, who I mostly liked and respected, and saw how the religion and culture held them back and didn't help them advance.

I may be bigoted, but at least I'm an educated bigot.

Edited by Mothersruin on Friday 26th August 14:37
Can't argue with that.

I suspect she did it of her own free will. I can't see a woman who is forced to cover up going to the beach for the day. If you look at the UK, I see lots more women wearing head coverings, especially at work. And you can bet your bottom dollar that's not forced upon them. The very young, I can understand that they could be dressed that way by their parents, but not the growing numbers who are old enough to do as they wish. The ME might be different.

Do you accept that if women wear coverings because they want to, that we should not interfere with their free choice?
Good question and I don't think there's an answer that'll please everyone.

We either have to allow all overt signs of religion or none. Someone is always going to be hard done by. For security issues, the full face ninja get up (niqab & burka) should be banned. I think a lot of people find them intimidating as well and that's not great for trust and integration. The rest are fine I suppose, though I think they look daft and it must be a royal pain in the arse to keep having to adjust them. Warm too.

I don't like the 'them and us' element of it either.

I used to seethe inside when i saw dudes walking around in white gear and the women in black while its close to 50C. But if it's their choice, their country, their rules.

Edited by Mothersruin on Friday 26th August 15:33

Mothersruin

8,573 posts

98 months

Friday 26th August 2016
quotequote all
What annoys me abut the racist tag...

If someone does something that is a choice, then they're open to criticism and adherence of laws that suit the majority.

If they have no choice, such as skin colour, gender, sexual orientation as examples, then they should have equality on every measure without question.

Religion is a choice in my book.

That's a book written in my own language without interpretation wink

walm

10,609 posts

201 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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lionelf said:
walm said:
lionelf said:
I'm a liberal but I'm afraid I agree with Sam Harris who says the 'Liberal elite' have let us down on the issue of immigration and our relationship with the Muslim world.

We're in danger of Liberalising ourselves out of existence eventually.
That's just ridiculous hyperbole.

1. A boat load of immigration was owing to the EU rules. Brexit is solving that.
2. This data shows that 19% of the non-UK born population in the UK are Muslim.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_407038.pdf

So at THE VERY WORSE we would see the 5% muslim population growing to 19%.

Now don't forget that we have just 300k-ish net migration a year. 0.5% of the population.
So at that rate in 100 years the population will be 9% muslim up from 5%.

HOW UTTERLY TERRIFYING!!
Which bit of E V E N T U A L L Y didn't make it through the outer layers of your noggin?
The bit where being in an 80% majority means we are "liberalised out of existence".

I do like the word "noggin" though. smile

Boosted LS1

21,167 posts

259 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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Countdown said:
Mothersruin said:
Anyone who arrives in a country and demands it's changed to suit them.
It's not "them" demanding change, as far as I can see. It's "us" demanding that they dress a certain way.
But you're just looking at a woman on a beach and not the bigger picture. The bigger picture is that 'they' come from the east because 'we' are a soft touch. then 'they' want us to bow to 'their' religion etc. Give them an inch and they'll take your country from you, eventually.

Once they're in it's nigh on impossible to remove them, so why should 'we' be expected to take the risk? The French have realised all to late what they're dealing with and are trying to get a grip on things. The English Chanel is our best friend.

Why anybody should really care about the woman on the beach is beyond me when the bigger picture is so much more important.

walm

10,609 posts

201 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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Boosted LS1 said:
Once they're in it's nigh on impossible to remove them, so why should 'we' be expected to take the risk?
Because, Donald, it's a fundamental part of being an open and welcoming society rather than a hate-fueled island of bigots.

Mothersruin

8,573 posts

98 months

Friday 26th August 2016
quotequote all
walm said:
Boosted LS1 said:
Once they're in it's nigh on impossible to remove them, so why should 'we' be expected to take the risk?
Because, Donald, it's a fundamental part of being an open and welcoming society rather than a hate-fueled island of bigots.
Because Islamic countries are lovely, warm and squidgy and it would be lovely to be just like them.

walm

10,609 posts

201 months

Friday 26th August 2016
quotequote all
Mothersruin said:
walm said:
Boosted LS1 said:
Once they're in it's nigh on impossible to remove them, so why should 'we' be expected to take the risk?
Because, Donald, it's a fundamental part of being an open and welcoming society rather than a hate-fueled island of bigots.
Because Islamic countries are lovely, warm and squidgy and it would be lovely to be just like them.
That's called a false dichotomy.

It isn't a question of a green a pleasant land filled with church fetes and tea with the vicar VERSUS Sudanese whipping for EVERYONE. smile

There is a middle ground.
One we are in right now.
And one with double the proportion of muslims that just won't be all that different, IMO.

Mothersruin

8,573 posts

98 months

Friday 26th August 2016
quotequote all
walm said:
Mothersruin said:
walm said:
Boosted LS1 said:
Once they're in it's nigh on impossible to remove them, so why should 'we' be expected to take the risk?
Because, Donald, it's a fundamental part of being an open and welcoming society rather than a hate-fueled island of bigots.
Because Islamic countries are lovely, warm and squidgy and it would be lovely to be just like them.
That's called a false dichotomy.

It isn't a question of a green a pleasant land filled with church fetes and tea with the vicar VERSUS Sudanese whipping for EVERYONE. smile

There is a middle ground.
One we are in right now.
And one with double the proportion of muslims that just won't be all that different, IMO.
There will be an exponential rise due to birth rates. I'm not making that up, its fact.

Look, I don't want to ban anything or stop anything. I'd personally just like a few basics looked at and not have what is quite a nice country and culture dragged backwards. Bringing cool stuff and embracing our lovely land is great, the not so cool stuff can be left at the door. That's all. Just my opinion. I'm not bothered if it's not shared by anyone else.

And the UK is quite a nice country. Perhaps those that slag it off should spend some time abroad. It's not perfect by any measure but its by far the best place I've ever been and certainly the most tolerant.

Thankyou4calling

10,595 posts

172 months

Friday 26th August 2016
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I think the laws been quashed anyhow.

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Friday 26th August 2016
quotequote all
Mothersruin said:
walm said:
Mothersruin said:
walm said:
Boosted LS1 said:
Once they're in it's nigh on impossible to remove them, so why should 'we' be expected to take the risk?
Because, Donald, it's a fundamental part of being an open and welcoming society rather than a hate-fueled island of bigots.
Because Islamic countries are lovely, warm and squidgy and it would be lovely to be just like them.
That's called a false dichotomy.

It isn't a question of a green a pleasant land filled with church fetes and tea with the vicar VERSUS Sudanese whipping for EVERYONE. smile

There is a middle ground.
One we are in right now.
And one with double the proportion of muslims that just won't be all that different, IMO.
There will be an exponential rise due to birth rates. I'm not making that up, its fact.

Look, I don't want to ban anything or stop anything. I'd personally just like a few basics looked at and not have what is quite a nice country and culture dragged backwards. Bringing cool stuff and embracing our lovely land is great, the not so cool stuff can be left at the door. That's all. Just my opinion. I'm not bothered if it's not shared by anyone else.

And the UK is quite a nice country. Perhaps those that slag it off should spend some time abroad. It's not perfect by any measure but its by far the best place I've ever been and certainly the most tolerant.
No one's saying there won't be a growth in the Muslim population of the UK, just that it won't be the 'takeover' some predict.

You might want to read http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will... and http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/the-future-of-t... about the changing birth rates in the world population and Muslims in particular. The former also explains how later generations of immigrant families have decreasing family sizes, something already visible in the UK Muslim population.



del mar

2,838 posts

198 months

Friday 26th August 2016
quotequote all
Alpinestars said:
Mothersruin said:
My bias is borne of experience and from that I calculate probability. At least give me that credit. I not just making st up without even having a clue. I've spent a lot of time in Islamic states working with the locals, who I mostly liked and respected, and saw how the religion and culture held them back and didn't help them advance.

I may be bigoted, but at least I'm an educated bigot.

Edited by Mothersruin on Friday 26th August 14:37
Can't argue with that.

I suspect she did it of her own free will. I can't see a woman who is forced to cover up going to the beach for the day. If you look at the UK, I see lots more women wearing head coverings, especially at work. And you can bet your bottom dollar that's not forced upon them. The very young, I can understand that they could be dressed that way by their parents, but not the growing numbers who are old enough to do as they wish. The ME might be different.

Do you accept that if women wear coverings because they want to, that we should not interfere with their free choice?
Ahh freedom of choice - like the Saudi athlete ?
Because most of us don't believe in sky fairies we don appreciate the power of religious guilt.

You are told from a very early age that good muslim women cover themselves from head to toe in black when ever they leave the house- you want to be a good muslim don't you ?

Add in some fatherly persuasion encouragment from the school / mosque and li and behold you have freedom of choice!

Girls are killed every year because they won't exercise their freedom of choice. I know of two muslim women that wear no religious clothing at all until there is a family event with male relatives then suddenly they start exercising their freedom of choice again

I don't believ any sane women free of male control or religious guilt would choos to leave the house fully covered or swim in the sea in their clothes.

the book doesn't even mention this.





JagLover

42,266 posts

234 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
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rscott said:
No one's saying there won't be a growth in the Muslim population of the UK, just that it won't be the 'takeover' some predict.

You might want to read http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-will... and http://www.pewforum.org/2011/01/27/the-future-of-t... about the changing birth rates in the world population and Muslims in particular. The former also explains how later generations of immigrant families have decreasing family sizes, something already visible in the UK Muslim population.
Backward looking studies and projections careful not to look too far into the future.

Here is a more up to date forecast

10% of Europe's population by 2050 and the same study predicts 11% of the UK's population by the same date (so exceeding the Channel 4 level "that will not be passed")

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/musl...

This is all not taking place in a vacuum either as Muslims are still a reliable Labour voting group and as their numbers rise Labour will be stronger and their open borders policies have more chance of being implemented.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/24/on...

Bury your hand in the sand or try to stop it.

rscott

14,690 posts

190 months

Saturday 27th August 2016
quotequote all
Have you got a link to the updated Pew report - I can't see it on the Guardian page and that doesn't mention 11% of the UK.

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