Banning the Burqini...

[PRTVR]

Alpinestars said:

PRTVR said:

That question is best directed to the people who constructed the law, perhaps they saw that type of clothing as a type of segregation, but that would be just a guess as I was not privy to their thoughts.

Surely if you've bothered partaking of the thread, you have your own thoughts about such a basic question?

I did give my thoughts, clothing can create integration, take the reasons for school uniforms, or segregation, like in this instance.

[anonymous-user]

It's noticeable that even breitbart think the bad is a bad idea that won't achieve anything!
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/25/worst-t...

I think the ban is a stupid, horrible, petty idea that criminalises people who choose to wear a long swimsuit.

[AJS-]

djc206 said:

Well that's a little ridiculous as none of the French attackers were burkini clad women. If they'd been laying on Isis flag beach towels that commenter may have a point.

I hate the burqa and the burkini and everything they stand for but they are self defeating. A Muslim family trapsing into the sea wearing their ninja outfits surrounded by bikini clad westerners is destined to see their idea of modesty challenged and altered over time. You can already see it in the ex pat heavy parts of the Middle East, burqas/hijabs etc are becoming more intricate, nails are painted, fancy watches on show, £5k handbag over the shoulder, lots of makeup, fancy shoes. This challenging of what qualifies as modest is the first step. Last time I was in Dubai there were a fair few locals including women drinking alcohol. Give it a couple of generations and it'll be bikinis, bacon sarnies and beers on the beach.

It would be nice if that were true. It seems to me that many Muslims both in the west and in Muslim countries are getting more radical and stricter in their observance.

[JagLover]

cookie118 said:

It's noticeable that even breitbart think the bad is a bad idea that won't achieve anything!
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/25/worst-t...

I think the ban is a stupid, horrible, petty idea that criminalises people who choose to wear a long swimsuit.

The article is spot on.

Aside from being wrong, and so should be opposed for those reasons, the ban should also be opposed for giving a weapon to the "useful idiots" on the other side.

[walm]

For people asking about the UAE or Sudan as a comparison, with all due respect, that it a wholly idiotic argument.

Taken to an extreme you are essentially saying...
"Well it's not as bad as ISIS chucking homosexuals off a cliff."

You are right, of course, it is not THAT bad.

Sadly, that's as far as the argument goes.

Our benchmark of what is good or right isn't "WHAT ISIS DOES"!!!
Sudan and the UAE are NOT THE BENCHMARK.

We don't decide on laws about clothing AS IF WE WERE UNDER PHYSICAL ATTACK.

I find the whole "covering up your modesty" thing an absolutely laughable rule - like everything to do with religion, frankly, but if you want to believe in Jedis or Flying Spaghetti Monsters and wear weird beige robes in the desert or a shirt made of al dente pasta - THAT'S ABSOLUTELY FINE.

It is fkING CLOTHING!!!!!!!

[djc206]

AJS- said:

It would be nice if that were true. It seems to me that many Muslims both in the west and in Muslim countries are getting more radical and stricter in their observance.

You'll always get some resistance to change. Something that always strikes me is how these jihadis have often lead fairly hedonistic lifestyles before committing their acts of terror. Struggling to reconcile religion and their own weaknesses and desires.

[Munter]

djc206 said:

AJS- said:

It would be nice if that were true. It seems to me that many Muslims both in the west and in Muslim countries are getting more radical and stricter in their observance.

You'll always get some resistance to change. Something that always strikes me is how these jihadis have often lead fairly hedonistic lifestyles before committing their acts of terror. Struggling to reconcile religion and their own weaknesses and desires.

People with mental health problems, making bad life choices, and following them up with further bad life choices? This seems so unlikely!

[GT03ROB]

AJS- said:

djc206 said:

Well that's a little ridiculous as none of the French attackers were burkini clad women. If they'd been laying on Isis flag beach towels that commenter may have a point.

I hate the burqa and the burkini and everything they stand for but they are self defeating. A Muslim family trapsing into the sea wearing their ninja outfits surrounded by bikini clad westerners is destined to see their idea of modesty challenged and altered over time. You can already see it in the ex pat heavy parts of the Middle East, burqas/hijabs etc are becoming more intricate, nails are painted, fancy watches on show, £5k handbag over the shoulder, lots of makeup, fancy shoes. This challenging of what qualifies as modest is the first step. Last time I was in Dubai there were a fair few locals including women drinking alcohol. Give it a couple of generations and it'll be bikinis, bacon sarnies and beers on the beach.

It would be nice if that were true. It seems to me that many Muslims both in the west and in Muslim countries are getting more radical and stricter in their observance.

What seems to be happening in the Muslim countries is a polarisation, so both of you are correct. From what I see the majority are moving towards djc206 model, the minority are becoming more radical.

I'm just off to the beach. I will see younger Kuwaitis in their bikinis. No beers or bacon yet... but give it time.

[Hosenbugler]

I read an article about this a coupkle of weeks back. Article quoted a Mayor who explained that they had enforced the ban following complaints from other beach users that the garments brought Islamic extremism to mind, and thus unease over the terrorist attacks which have been perpetrated in the country.

From what I can see of it, the garment does not mask the face, so to me personally, it seems harmless, and while I'd agree with the French with banning the burka, this does seem a step over the line.

[djc206]

Munter said:

djc206 said:

AJS- said:

It would be nice if that were true. It seems to me that many Muslims both in the west and in Muslim countries are getting more radical and stricter in their observance.

You'll always get some resistance to change. Something that always strikes me is how these jihadis have often lead fairly hedonistic lifestyles before committing their acts of terror. Struggling to reconcile religion and their own weaknesses and desires.

People with mental health problems, making bad life choices, and following them up with further bad life choices? This seems so unlikely!

I think chalking these acts up to mental health issues is a lazy way of explaining them away.

[anonymous-user]

JagLover said:

The article is spot on.

Aside from being wrong, and so should be opposed for those reasons, the ban should also be opposed for giving a weapon to the "useful idiots" on the other side.

France is a breeding ground for terrorists as there is a large poor marginalised immigrant population in some cities. Banning long swimsuits doesn't improve integration, it just creates more causes for angry nutters.

[BJG1]

rich85uk said:

To those outraged by this please answer the following:

Is this more outrageous than the women raped/gang raped in the UAE and were sent to prison for having sex outside of marriage and charged for being drunk

Is this more outrageous than the couple sent to prison for 4 weeks after a kiss on the lips in a resturaunt in the UAE

Is this more outrageous than a possible prison sentence for couples who share a hotel room who aren't married in the UAE

I do not support this law but the outcry is huge, UAE imposes some extreme laws which are far worse yet the overwhelming opinion is those are the rules you must obey
I

What a ridiculous argument. Of course all those things are wrong and nobody who disagrees wiyh this ban will support those laws.

This has happened in a western democracy one border over from the UK. That's why there's a big fuss over it

[BJG1]

PRTVR said:

That's human nature I'm afraid, if you were attacked would you try to reason with your attackers or try to defend yourself with the same violence as is been used against you ?

Last time I checked nobody was under attack from women at the beach.

You can explain why it's happened all you like, it doesn't make it ok

[Alpinestars]

JagLover said:

cookie118 said:

It's noticeable that even breitbart think the bad is a bad idea that won't achieve anything!
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/08/25/worst-t...

I think the ban is a stupid, horrible, petty idea that criminalises people who choose to wear a long swimsuit.

The article is spot on.

Aside from being wrong, and so should be opposed for those reasons, the ban should also be opposed for giving a weapon to the "useful idiots" on the other side.

Some PH posters with more radical views that Breitbart says a lot about the lack of thought process, and knee jerk reactions of those people.

Unfortunately, I have a horrible feeling that this sort of self indulgence by the French could backfire. It's not an obvious way of addressing the integration issue. All it can possibly do is stop people who might otherwise have gone to the beach from going. Ultimately causing a lot of resentment on both sides, further exacerbating the integration issue.

[anonymous-user]

Earlier in the thread some posters suggested that "most people don't like Muslims" and it saddens me to say that I think they are correct.

If a confidential nationwide poll was conducted with the question being "Do you think Muslims have a place in our country?" Or something similar, I would literally bet my house on the outcome being a big majority against Muslims.

Hypothetically, if that was the case, where the heck do we go from there?

I would prefer it if we were all peace and love but I have a bad feeling things are just going to continue to enter a downward spiral of hatred on all sides.

[walm]

NinjaPower said:

Hypothetically, if that was the case, where the heck do we go from there?

We are seeing a fairly strong shift away from religion of all types.
The muslim population in Britain is growing all the time.
People of races, colours and even religious backgrounds are inter-marrying.

We seem to have made some hugely impressive strides towards the liberal agenda that seemed almost unthinkable 10 years ago.
In particular I am thinking about gay marriage.

I hope that all of the above will combine to lead to more tolerance not less.

It probably hard to hate an entire race when your daughter marries someone from that race (without converting).

[AJS-]

I think there's a danger of complacency in assuming that western secular consumer culture will sweep away radicalism, and the current surge in jihadism is the death throes of the old regime.

The territory and number of people now living under shariah law has expanded hugely in the last couple of decades and the severity of that law seems to be increasing. Yes there are counter movements and liberalisation movements but it's not a foregone conclusion that they will prevail.

A lot of people point to the demographics of the west changing to increase the proportion of Muslims but this is almost certainly even more pronounced in Muslim countries where the poorer and more religiously zealous are breeding faster than the secular middle classes.

What we may see is a polarisation, and if the west is harbouring and protecting the most radical of these elements then we are making things worse for ourselves and for secular, moderate Muslims.

I do think the French ban on the burqini is silly for the same reasons James Delingpole discusses above but it's worth looking at how Muslim countries have approached this question.

Here's Egyptian president Nasser discussing hijabs in 1958

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TX4RK8bj2W0

And the restrictions placed on Islamic dress in various countries

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab_by_country

It seems that the moderates and the Arab nationalists lost the argument and the results weren't great. We should not do the same here.

[walm]

AJS- said:

What we may see is a polarisation, and if the west is harbouring and protecting the most radical of these elements then we are making things worse for ourselves and for secular, moderate Muslims.

You think we/the west are protecting radicals?

I agree on the risk of polarisation. That is definitely a huge worry.

[Derek Smith]

I had a mate who emigrated to Australia.

He got on well with most locals, at least those who were not prejudiced against poms (his parents were Irish but refused to say so) but he said the ones whom he avoided at all costs were the Brits who wouldn't wear flip-flops, but instead had sandals with socks. Those who went to ex-pat clubs and maintained traditions of the UK, or a bastardised version of the UK, which bore little relationship to it. They all seemed, he said, so sad.

He still watched football rather than rugby league, but with cricket he supported his new country. He fitted in, he loved it. There were some aspects he wasn't enamoured with but mostly put up with them. He returned to this country because of a child having a chronic illness that would have cost him thousands over there, but took to his life back here without going on about how much better it was in Oz.

The difference out there was that the kids of these 'little corner of England' mob was that their kids mixed with the Aussie kids and, naturally, took to the lifestyle that fitted in with the environment. This would often cause domestic problems as parents objected to their kids having their own preferences. One generation on and they were naturalised. Still, we've managed to block that by having special school to ensure that they are kept separate.

If emigrants want to maintain their old lifestyle then we should let them, as long as it doesn't break any laws. However, we should not pay for schools to enforce segregation.

With the various forms of covering up, I'm suspicious that much of it is enforced by a patriarchal culture which is abhorrent to our way of life. But banning clothing is not the way to go. Get their kids into open education, where women are not sent to the back of the class as they are of no account. And especially, teach comparative religion and point out that they have a choice, even of none.

[JagLover]

NinjaPower said:

Earlier in the thread some posters suggested that "most people don't like Muslims" and it saddens me to say that I think they are correct.

If a confidential nationwide poll was conducted with the question being "Do you think Muslims have a place in our country?" Or something similar, I would literally bet my house on the outcome being a big majority against Muslims.

Hypothetically, if that was the case, where the heck do we go from there?

I would prefer it if we were all peace and love but I have a bad feeling things are just going to continue to enter a downward spiral of hatred on all sides.

People were never consulted on the scale of immigration seen post 1997 which has created both the resentment and the current sense of crises.

Many, including myself, are perfectly content with a small, well integrated, Muslim community alongside other groups like Sikhs, Hindus etc.

Many, I would guess the majority, are vehemently opposed to Islam becoming dominant in this country.

We need root and branch reform in many areas, primarily in immigration policy.