Banning the Burqini...

[lionelf]

desolate said:

My son goes to a single sex school and my daughter was as a single sex school until last term and is now moving to a mixed school. There is sex segregation in other walks of life.

I am confirmed atheist.

As am I and as is Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins etc. And on this subject you need to read what they are saying.

[Funkycoldribena]

None of our business,their rules,they can ban what they like.

[Mothersruin]

Alpinestars said:

Mothersruin said:

There shouldn't be though, should there, today, 2016?

There you go imposing your world view on people who freely choose to so something different to you.

So you agree with sex segregation on the whole?

[BJG1]

Mothersruin said:

You're not understanding anything are you.

As I said, she's purely the result of how the majority (so it seems, happy to be proved wrong) of French people are very scared and deeply distrustful of any indicator of Islam. Rightly or wrongly depending on our views, obviously.

What would you do if you were them? I hear you condemn but I don't hear your answers.

Btw, French Polic are armed. If it had been a ten year old being warned for littering, they'd still have been armed

If I were them I wouldn't be scared of any indicator of Islam

French courts have suspended the ban. Common sense at last

[anonymous-user]

lionelf said:

desolate said:

I don't deny we need to address the issue of Radical Islam and related terrorism but I see muslims intergrated into society every day I leave the house

You say "I don't deny we need to address the issue of Radical Islam and related terrorism" but then go on to almost down play it with your "but....".

Please don't just pay this issue lip service, address it now by suggesting a solution. As I said, I'm a left wing Liberal but people will die from terrorist incidents while this 'try to please everybody' prevarication continues.

My solution:
Disestbalish the church
Drop the Lords Spiritual from the HoL (the existence of the HoL is for another thread)
Ban the sponsorship of all schools by any religion
Ban worship in schools
Change the teaching of Religion so that it is factual/historical
(Effectively make all schools 100% secular)

That would be a start and would put the foundations in place for a genuinely secular state.

That won't happen.

I would also be a bit tighter on the use of provocative language, but that is pretty subjective and difficult to police.
All the stuff about burkas et al is a red herring, although I agree that people should show their face and that I wouldn't be against properly draughted regulations about when it is appropriate to cover one's face.

I am not 100% au fait with the non-eu immigration regulations but I would be in favour of a beefed up citizenship test that included being able to speak English. This would have to be carefully draughted as well.

I am also 100% against the kind of military interventions we have made in the Middle East.


What do you think?

[Alpinestars]

Mothersruin said:

Alpinestars said:

Mothersruin said:

Free will my arse. She'll have been waiting for her husband who'd have rocked up wearing a tiny pair of shorts asking for sun cream to be rubbed into his back.

Evidence? Or is that your view of women?

Just having seen it on a regular basis.

The saddest is seeing young girls suddenly be wrapped up when they hit puberty. They go from carefree to seemly having the weight of the world on their shoulders.

Just observation and my interpretation.

I only ever speak for myself with my comments. I don't claim to represent anyone else.

So no evidence that the woman was forced to wear that outfit by her husband? You just made it up?

[Countdown]

Mothersruin said:

See, I get that and I whole heartily agree.

But....

Tell us what we should do.

If you were the EU then it would be that more EU is needed. So, do we need to be more accepting, do we need to embrace Islam and all convert to the book? Would that solve the issues the cultural schism the west is going through?

We don't need to embrace islam at all. Nor do we need to "ban" islam or "eradicate" Islam. In the West the reason most people have moved away from Christianity is (IMO) because we created a society where we didn't need to rely on a mythical God to enforce a cultural way of life. We educated people to show them there was a better way. You can't convince anybody that your way is better by forcing them, only by educating them.

[anonymous-user]

lionelf said:

As am I and as is Sam Harris, Christopher Hitchens, Richard Dawkins etc. And on this subject you need to read what they are saying.

In what context do you say this?

[Alpinestars]

Mothersruin said:

So you agree with sex segregation on the whole?

Which bit of "I don't care as long as it doesn't belittle women" do you not get?

I don't give a st/hoot/two hoots how people arrange their lives vis a vis gender so long as one sex is not being forced by the other to do whatever it is they are doing.

[Mothersruin]

Alpinestars said:

Mothersruin said:

I completely complied with their laws, respected their religion and culture and erred on the side of caution if I was unsure of anything. At no time did I even hint at them changing stuff for my benefit.

Those companies/countries provided you a living and a career and your pay back is the hate you're showing. It's very sad, but you're not seeing the irony of the stance you're taking.

I worked for Western countries in the main, providing military and police training to help them sort out the fk ups their countries had become. I saw many good people hamstrung by a stupid ethos. From Morocco to Pakistan and every county in between.

[Alpinestars]

desolate said:

My solution:
Disestbalish the church
Drop the Lords Spiritual from the HoL (the existence of the HoL is for another thread)
Ban the sponsorship of all schools by any religion
Ban worship in schools
Change the teaching of Religion so that it is factual/historical
(Effectively make all schools 100% secular)

That would be a start and would put the foundations in place for a genuinely secular state.

That won't happen.

I would also be a bit tighter on the use of provocative language, but that is pretty subjective and difficult to police.
All the stuff about burkas et al is a red herring, although I agree that people should show their face and that I wouldn't be against properly draughted regulations about when it is appropriate to cover one's face.

I am not 100% au fait with the non-eu immigration regulations but I would be in favour of a beefed up citizenship test that included being able to speak English. This would have to be carefully draughted as well.

I am also 100% against the kind of military interventions we have made in the Middle East.


What do you think?

I'd go with that.

Edited by Alpinestars on Friday 26th August 14:25

[Countdown]

Mothersruin said:

Just having seen it on a regular basis.

The saddest is seeing young girls suddenly be wrapped up when they hit puberty. They go from carefree to seemly having the weight of the world on their shoulders.

Just observation and my interpretation.

I only ever speak for myself with my comments. I don't claim to represent anyone else.

As a father of 3 girls I have a huge amount of experience in this area. To any man who thinks he will be able to tell his wife or daughters what they should wear let me assure you that you ARE wrong and you WILL lose. My wife pays little or no attention to my suggestions and I've never even bothered with any of my daughters.

FWIW there's far more arguments between Mum and daughters over what is/isn't suitable. But then i re ember my sister having the same argument with HER mum and I'd be surprised if that hasn't happened in every family down the generations, regardless of religion.

[Mothersruin]

Countdown said:

Mothersruin said:

See, I get that and I whole heartily agree.

But....

Tell us what we should do.

If you were the EU then it would be that more EU is needed. So, do we need to be more accepting, do we need to embrace Islam and all convert to the book? Would that solve the issues the cultural schism the west is going through?

We don't need to embrace islam at all. Nor do we need to "ban" islam or "eradicate" Islam. In the West the reason most people have moved away from Christianity is (IMO) because we created a society where we didn't need to rely on a mythical God to enforce a cultural way of life. We educated people to show them there was a better way. You can't convince anybody that your way is better by forcing them, only by educating them.

Which has taken many centuries for Christianity. I hope it works a little quicker this time round.

[anonymous-user]

Alpinestars said:

I'd go with that, but you'd be pretty pissed after all that draughting .

I actually changed it to that as well. I hope my obvious illiteracy doesn't invalidate my point.

In fact if they had spent more time teaching me English rather than RE and singing fkign hymns maybe my spelling would be better. But that's the Catholics for you.

[Mothersruin]

Alpinestars said:

Mothersruin said:

Alpinestars said:

Mothersruin said:

Free will my arse. She'll have been waiting for her husband who'd have rocked up wearing a tiny pair of shorts asking for sun cream to be rubbed into his back.

Evidence? Or is that your view of women?

Just having seen it on a regular basis.

The saddest is seeing young girls suddenly be wrapped up when they hit puberty. They go from carefree to seemly having the weight of the world on their shoulders.

Just observation and my interpretation.

I only ever speak for myself with my comments. I don't claim to represent anyone else.

So no evidence that the woman was forced to wear that outfit by her husband? You just made it up?

Maybe, or most likely ingrained into her sense of modesty since a little girl by her family.

Just going on experience. Could be wrong.

[spitfire-ian]

Ban has been lifted

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-37198479

[Alpinestars]

Mothersruin said:

Maybe, or most likely ingrained into her sense of modesty since a little girl by her family.

Just going on experience. Could be wrong.

Could be wrong but your bias won't allow you to see that she might have done it because she wanted to. Sexist?

[Alpinestars]

desolate said:

I actually changed it to that as well. I hope my obvious illiteracy doesn't invalidate my point.

In fact if they had spent more time teaching me English rather than RE and singing fkign hymns maybe my spelling would be better. But that's the Catholics for you.

Course it doesn't. I'm just being facetious.

[Mothersruin]

Countdown said:

Mothersruin said:

Just having seen it on a regular basis.

The saddest is seeing young girls suddenly be wrapped up when they hit puberty. They go from carefree to seemly having the weight of the world on their shoulders.

Just observation and my interpretation.

I only ever speak for myself with my comments. I don't claim to represent anyone else.

As a father of 3 girls I have a huge amount of experience in this area. To any man who thinks he will be able to tell his wife or daughters what they should wear let me assure you that you ARE wrong and you WILL lose. My wife pays little or no attention to my suggestions and I've never even bothered with any of my daughters.

FWIW there's far more arguments between Mum and daughters over what is/isn't suitable. But then i re ember my sister having the same argument with HER mum and I'd be surprised if that hasn't happened in every family down the generations, regardless of religion.

A colleague of my wife always wore 'western' dress at work and one day turned up in a niqab. Long term family pressure. One of the uncles had decided to become a bit more religiousy and threatened to have her 'escorted' back to Kuwait to marry a nice young man with a big beard if she didn't hold up the family's reputation.

Must have been a one off.

[anonymous-user]

Alpinestars said:

Course it doesn't. I'm just being facetious.

So was I sorry - I will try and start putting those emoticons in my posts!