Banning the Burqini...
Discussion
Troubleatmill said:
rscott said:
Have you got a link to the updated Pew report - I can't see it on the Guardian page and that doesn't mention 11% of the UK.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/Anyway, back to the OP, and I'm glad to see common sense prevail.
Troubleatmill said:
rscott said:
Have you got a link to the updated Pew report - I can't see it on the Guardian page and that doesn't mention 11% of the UK.
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/Some of the other figures in there are quite reassuring - than nearly half of US Muslims think their leaders should condemn extremism more, that the vast majority of Muslims don't support ISIS or it's activities.
The Sharia law figures are interesting too - seems to suggest that the nearer the countries are to Western Europe, the lower the support for Sharia becoming part of the countries laws.
Taking this subject in isolation,I might take the PoV that the state should not dictate what anybody chooses to wear.
However we have several points at play here.
With the horrific terrorist actions of Islamic fundamentalists,who we know have killed more Muslims than those of other faiths,we might have hoped for a more sympathetic reaction from the majority of Muslim men and women.
Unfortunately we cannot distinguish between a moderate and extreme fundamentalist Muslim.
Therefore would it not be,at the very least,a courtesy of those of the Muslim faith if they chose not to wear those external signs of their faith that arrouse fear and suspicion.
It may seem to them an irrational fear,however it is only to real to many.
After all ,when we go through airport security most sensible people accept that they may be subject to a quite intrusive search.
We accept this because we accept the need for heightened security.
I have often heard Muslims say, that the followers of ISIS do not represent them,or the true faith.
I accept that is the case for a majority,however there is a significant minority,that one may form the opinion,feel a degree of sympathy for the fundamentalists,saying that we created ISIS by our ME wars of aggression,and there well be some truth in that.
I ask you to ponder this,when we see an Indian Hindhu lady in a sari,a Sikh in a turban or a Hari Krishna in his ethnic clothing,does it arrouse much reaction ?
I also understand that such bans or inhibitions towards Muslims and their cultural and / or religious beliefs are often counter productive as it causes them to close ranks in the face of perceived or actual persecution.
It is truly a dilemma.
My fear in commenting as I do concerns me.
It concerns me that I should be seen as racist or Islamaphobic.
I sincerely hope that I am neither.
I do however feel that empathy is a two way street,in that,if we are to embrace our Muslim neighbors they might also show a little more sensitivity to all our concerns so that together we can defeat the extremist ideology that is so destructive.
However we have several points at play here.
With the horrific terrorist actions of Islamic fundamentalists,who we know have killed more Muslims than those of other faiths,we might have hoped for a more sympathetic reaction from the majority of Muslim men and women.
Unfortunately we cannot distinguish between a moderate and extreme fundamentalist Muslim.
Therefore would it not be,at the very least,a courtesy of those of the Muslim faith if they chose not to wear those external signs of their faith that arrouse fear and suspicion.
It may seem to them an irrational fear,however it is only to real to many.
After all ,when we go through airport security most sensible people accept that they may be subject to a quite intrusive search.
We accept this because we accept the need for heightened security.
I have often heard Muslims say, that the followers of ISIS do not represent them,or the true faith.
I accept that is the case for a majority,however there is a significant minority,that one may form the opinion,feel a degree of sympathy for the fundamentalists,saying that we created ISIS by our ME wars of aggression,and there well be some truth in that.
I ask you to ponder this,when we see an Indian Hindhu lady in a sari,a Sikh in a turban or a Hari Krishna in his ethnic clothing,does it arrouse much reaction ?
I also understand that such bans or inhibitions towards Muslims and their cultural and / or religious beliefs are often counter productive as it causes them to close ranks in the face of perceived or actual persecution.
It is truly a dilemma.
My fear in commenting as I do concerns me.
It concerns me that I should be seen as racist or Islamaphobic.
I sincerely hope that I am neither.
I do however feel that empathy is a two way street,in that,if we are to embrace our Muslim neighbors they might also show a little more sensitivity to all our concerns so that together we can defeat the extremist ideology that is so destructive.
scenario8 said:
Nope. Still don't have any issue or even interest in women choosing to wear such beach wear. None at all.
I made it quite plain that this issue is not really about the clothing ,it's about the ideology.It is about the sharing of values and the respect for each other's sensitivities.
Were you living in France,with their recent spate of terrorism,you might be more sympathetic to an alternative point of view.
The ban on religious symbolism,in public spaces is,rightly or wrongly framed in french law and applies to all faiths.
Your contribution is welcome but hardly informs the debate.
avinalarf said:
scenario8 said:
Nope. Still don't have any issue or even interest in women choosing to wear such beach wear. None at all.
I made it quite plain that this issue is not really about the clothing ,it's about the ideology.It is about the sharing of values and the respect for each other's sensitivities.
Were you living in France,with their recent spate of terrorism,you might be more sympathetic to an alternative point of view.
The ban on religious symbolism,in public spaces is,rightly or wrongly framed in french law and applies to all faiths.
Your contribution is welcome but hardly informs the debate.
avinalarf said:
Unfortunately we cannot distinguish between a moderate and extreme fundamentalist Muslim.
Therefore would it not be,at the very least,a courtesy of those of the Muslim faith if they chose not to wear those external signs of their faith that arrouse fear and suspicion.
It may seem to them an irrational fear,however it is only to real to many.
Correct it is impossible to distinguish between those who may do harm & those that will not. From memory none of the atrocities committed in Belgium or France have been conducted by Bukha or burquini clad terrorists. They've all been dressed in western style. So fears based on dress are totally irrational. It is the responsibility of our leaders to quell those fears, not encourage them. This attempted ban merely encourages irrational fears & irrational behaviours at a time when rational behaviour from the the civilised world is what is needed. Therefore would it not be,at the very least,a courtesy of those of the Muslim faith if they chose not to wear those external signs of their faith that arrouse fear and suspicion.
It may seem to them an irrational fear,however it is only to real to many.
GT03ROB said:
avinalarf said:
Unfortunately we cannot distinguish between a moderate and extreme fundamentalist Muslim.
Therefore would it not be,at the very least,a courtesy of those of the Muslim faith if they chose not to wear those external signs of their faith that arrouse fear and suspicion.
It may seem to them an irrational fear,however it is only to real to many.
Correct it is impossible to distinguish between those who may do harm & those that will not. From memory none of the atrocities committed in Belgium or France have been conducted by Bukha or burquini clad terrorists. They've all been dressed in western style. So fears based on dress are totally irrational. It is the responsibility of our leaders to quell those fears, not encourage them. This attempted ban merely encourages irrational fears & irrational behaviours at a time when rational behaviour from the the civilised world is what is needed. Therefore would it not be,at the very least,a courtesy of those of the Muslim faith if they chose not to wear those external signs of their faith that arrouse fear and suspicion.
It may seem to them an irrational fear,however it is only to real to many.
The ban on the burkini has proven to be divisive to the majority of Muslims.
This was to be expected.
However it is not solving the problem of the irrational fears by ignoring them.
I was suggesting that a dialogue between the followers of Islam and those of other faiths may bring about a meeting of minds.
As I said,it's a two way street,and those followers of Islam should also consider the effects of their actions.
Many would not consider it appropriate for a woman to dress skimpily in some middles eastern countries,we respect the differences in culture.
The more serious dilemma is that the more extreme fundamentalist followers of Islam are not,to western eyes,rational..
For example,nothing we might have said to Hitler or attempts at appeasement would have stopped his horrific actions.
GT03ROB said:
avinalarf said:
Unfortunately we cannot distinguish between a moderate and extreme fundamentalist Muslim.
Therefore would it not be,at the very least,a courtesy of those of the Muslim faith if they chose not to wear those external signs of their faith that arrouse fear and suspicion.
It may seem to them an irrational fear,however it is only to real to many.
Correct it is impossible to distinguish between those who may do harm & those that will not. From memory none of the atrocities committed in Belgium or France have been conducted by Bukha or burquini clad terrorists. They've all been dressed in western style. So fears based on dress are totally irrational. It is the responsibility of our leaders to quell those fears, not encourage them. This attempted ban merely encourages irrational fears & irrational behaviours at a time when rational behaviour from the the civilised world is what is needed. Therefore would it not be,at the very least,a courtesy of those of the Muslim faith if they chose not to wear those external signs of their faith that arrouse fear and suspicion.
It may seem to them an irrational fear,however it is only to real to many.
avinalarf said:
I agree,and said as much in my post.
The ban on the burkini has proven to be divisive to the majority of Muslims.
This was to be expected.
However it is not solving the problem of the irrational fears by ignoring them.
I was suggesting that a dialogue between the followers of Islam and those of other faiths may bring about a meeting of minds.
As I said,it's a two way street,and those followers of Islam should also consider the effects of their actions.
Many would not consider it appropriate for a woman to dress skimpily in some middles eastern countries,we respect the differences in culture.
The more serious dilemma is that the more extreme fundamentalist followers of Islam are not,to western eyes,rational..
For example,nothing we might have said to Hitler or attempts at appeasement would have stopped his horrific actions.
Ignoring anything does not make it go away. Is there more the Islamic community in France & elsewhere can do to play down those fears, probably. However persecuting people for the way they dress does nothing to encourage this. Where does France want to go next?? Stick a red crescent on every Muslim so we know who may be a terrorist? (that was flippant by the way, but I'm sure you get where I was going).The ban on the burkini has proven to be divisive to the majority of Muslims.
This was to be expected.
However it is not solving the problem of the irrational fears by ignoring them.
I was suggesting that a dialogue between the followers of Islam and those of other faiths may bring about a meeting of minds.
As I said,it's a two way street,and those followers of Islam should also consider the effects of their actions.
Many would not consider it appropriate for a woman to dress skimpily in some middles eastern countries,we respect the differences in culture.
The more serious dilemma is that the more extreme fundamentalist followers of Islam are not,to western eyes,rational..
For example,nothing we might have said to Hitler or attempts at appeasement would have stopped his horrific actions.
When I see Muslim countries being more tolerant than a Western democracy, I am seriously concerned. I am concerned that terrorism is winning. I am concerned that the entirely rational plans of certain Islamic extremists are working.
And yes you are right talking to somebody like Hitler wouldn't work & neither would the banning of lederhosen in the run up to WW2!!
PRTVR said:
The problem is we are not in a rational world, people are killed for drawing a cartoon,people have been executed at a rock concert, ran down with a truck while celebrating, is not the fear of any outward sign of association rational?
I am surrounded by the "outward signs of association". I'd like to think I am rational, though I wonder sometimes, but I don't live in a perpetual state of fear.I shall go into the office tomorrow & be surrounded by Bhurka, Hijab & tight jean clad Moslem ladies (Sometimes they wear the tight jeans with a Hijab). I will see people not terrorists. So no I don't get this irrational fear.
GT03ROB said:
PRTVR said:
The problem is we are not in a rational world, people are killed for drawing a cartoon,people have been executed at a rock concert, ran down with a truck while celebrating, is not the fear of any outward sign of association rational?
I am surrounded by the "outward signs of association". I'd like to think I am rational, though I wonder sometimes, but I don't live in a perpetual state of fear.I shall go into the office tomorrow & be surrounded by Bhurka, Hijab & tight jean clad Moslem ladies (Sometimes they wear the tight jeans with a Hijab). I will see people not terrorists. So no I don't get this irrational fear.
PRTVR said:
GT03ROB said:
PRTVR said:
The problem is we are not in a rational world, people are killed for drawing a cartoon,people have been executed at a rock concert, ran down with a truck while celebrating, is not the fear of any outward sign of association rational?
I am surrounded by the "outward signs of association". I'd like to think I am rational, though I wonder sometimes, but I don't live in a perpetual state of fear.I shall go into the office tomorrow & be surrounded by Bhurka, Hijab & tight jean clad Moslem ladies (Sometimes they wear the tight jeans with a Hijab). I will see people not terrorists. So no I don't get this irrational fear.
But I think you keep missing my point.
I agree with much of what you say.
What a person chooses to wear is of no concern to me and that is not my debating point.
I am debating whether it would be more helpful if we and Muslims joined together and discussed how we could defeat this extreme fundamentalism whilst at the same time assuaging the fears,whether irrational or not of a fair majority of the non Muslim faith.
I wonder how many of you would defend,so vociferously,the ritual killing of animals to conform to Islamic practice?
Most lamb is now killed in the Islamic tradition,doesn't bother me to much,but many are greatly concerned,where is the serious debate on this.
When the subject is raised those against it are often accused of being Islamaphobic.
PRTVR said:
Good point, but not everybody has your association with the Muslim community and will view it differently, especially if you or somebody you know was around when one of the atrocities took place in France.
One of my Hijab & jean wearing engineers had family in the Al Sadiq Mosque in Kuwait City when ISIS bombed it killing 30 last year. Her brother being seriously injured. But yes I do understand all will see things from their perspective & that perspective becomes their reality.
avinalarf said:
But I think you keep missing my point.
I agree with much of what you say.
What a person chooses to wear is of no concern to me and that is not my debating point.
I am debating whether it would be more helpful if we and Muslims joined together and discussed how we could defeat this extreme fundamentalism whilst at the same time assuaging the fears,whether irrational or not of a fair majority of the non Muslim faith.
I may have been missing your point...... probably because I agree with your point! I agree with much of what you say.
What a person chooses to wear is of no concern to me and that is not my debating point.
I am debating whether it would be more helpful if we and Muslims joined together and discussed how we could defeat this extreme fundamentalism whilst at the same time assuaging the fears,whether irrational or not of a fair majority of the non Muslim faith.
(except it would have to be non-alcoholic, those damn muslims again!) avinalarf said:
I wonder how many of you would defend,so vociferously,the ritual killing of animals to conform to Islamic practice?
Most lamb is now killed in the Islamic tradition,doesn't bother me to much,but many are greatly concerned,where is the serious debate on this.
When the subject is raised those against it are often accused of being Islamaphobic.
Again, this isn't as simple as it appears... It can seem Islamaphobic if the discussion only ever features halal and doesn't mention kosher slaughter. Far better to consider both together.Most lamb is now killed in the Islamic tradition,doesn't bother me to much,but many are greatly concerned,where is the serious debate on this.
When the subject is raised those against it are often accused of being Islamaphobic.
I have no issue with the vast majority of halal slaughter in the UK as the animals are pre-stunned, so the suffering is no different that normal slaughter. I don't like or agree with unstunned slaughter, be it for halal or kosher reasons.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff