Climate Cat out of the Bag? Potentially dynamite revelations

Climate Cat out of the Bag? Potentially dynamite revelations

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Discussion

turbobloke

Original Poster:

103,737 posts

259 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
AshVX220 said:
I'm trying not to get to excited about it yet though, there are too many powerful people and organisations that will do whatever it takes to continue leading the public down this particular path. Don't under-estimate the power of spin.
Seems likely they'll want to "Do A True Believer" and say blah blah then lie low for a while before popping up again as if nothing happened.

If true, this though may be a bit too much for that time-worn twostep.

Diderot

7,263 posts

191 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
Blimey.

If true, then this is the day the world changed.

If true, Govts will simply use the plausible deniability angle and protest it was the scientists 'what done it'.


AshVX220

5,929 posts

189 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
AshVX220 said:
I'm trying not to get to excited about it yet though, there are too many powerful people and organisations that will do whatever it takes to continue leading the public down this particular path. Don't under-estimate the power of spin.
Seems likely they'll want to "Do A True Believer" and say blah blah then lie low for a while before popping up again as if nothing happened.

If true, this though may be a bit too much for that time-worn twostep.
Yeah, here's hoping. I must say, after the science museums loss with their poll and the number fo complaints the advertiser's got from the CO2 ad campaign. I don't think this could have come at a better time. I do however believe the politicians will wriggle (or at least try to) out of it, saying it was all the scientists fault and they ere just informing us of the scientists findings.


Time will tell I guess, fingers crossed.

Dick Dastardly

8,312 posts

262 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
Guam said:
"This one was interesting…if true….

From: Phil Jones
To: “Michael E. Mann”
What is he emailing him for? Phil knows that Heat was not film about climate change, right?

ludo

5,308 posts

203 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
Worth noting perhaps:

Climate Audit article by Steve McIntyre May 28th, 2008
Claimed e-mail in the UEA CRU hack file May 29th, 2008
however if you wanted to forge some email correspondence, that is just the sort of detail you would put in, using publicly available information, just to add a little verisimilitude. A bit like adding emails from Steve MacInyre, who publishes a lot of his email correspondence with people like Phil Jones anyway. The idea that Phil Jones reads Climate Audit seems a little far fetched if you ask me!

chris watton

22,477 posts

259 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
IL_JDM said:
In a nutsehell,

Am I right in thinking that 1000 emails & 70 documents have been 'released' by a hacker, which in fact prove that 'global warming' is completley made up?

"So the 1079 emails and 72 documents seem indeed evidence of a scandal involving most of the most prominent scientists pushing the man-made warming theory - a scandal that is one of the greatest in modern science"
Certainly hope so, although not counting any chickens until this has better confirmation and becomes more mainstream.
If true, the fallout will be on a Biblical scale!

Also, if true, what would happen to the investors of 'carbon capture' scam companies, and can we have our money back from the dreadful 'Act on Co2' propaganda ads we've had to endure?

AshVX220

5,929 posts

189 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
I've just checked the BBC news site and there's nothing on there (surprise, surprise), has anyone seen anything about this on a mainstream news site/channel yet? I'm still looking.

ludo

5,308 posts

203 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
IL_JDM said:
In a nutsehell,

Am I right in thinking that 1000 emails & 70 documents have been 'released' by a hacker, which in fact prove that 'global warming' is completley made up?

"So the 1079 emails and 72 documents seem indeed evidence of a scandal involving most of the most prominent scientists pushing the man-made warming theory - a scandal that is one of the greatest in modern science"
Which makes it rather unlikely to be true. It seems unlikely to me that a whole group of scientists would collaborate in such a scandal, purely because they would know that they would be bound to be found out (scientific method is self-correcting in the long term, and if they are wrong the data will prove them wrong within their remaining lifetime), at which point their reputation will be in tatters.

An occasional individual scientist does that sort of thing, but an organized conspiracy? Not likely.

turbobloke

Original Poster:

103,737 posts

259 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
ludo said:
turbobloke said:
Worth noting perhaps:

Climate Audit article by Steve McIntyre May 28th, 2008
Claimed e-mail in the UEA CRU hack file May 29th, 2008
however if you wanted to forge some email correspondence, that is just the sort of detail you would put in, using publicly available information, just to add a little verisimilitude. A bit like adding emails from Steve MacInyre, who publishes a lot of his email correspondence with people like Phil Jones anyway. The idea that Phil Jones reads Climate Audit seems a little far fetched if you ask me!
The files suggest that the entire warmist industry read not only CA but other web material. As always you should look at the evidence closely before venturing an opinion, though you are entitled to it.

Loyal to the bitter end eh?

ludo

5,308 posts

203 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
ludo said:
turbobloke said:
Worth noting perhaps:

Climate Audit article by Steve McIntyre May 28th, 2008
Claimed e-mail in the UEA CRU hack file May 29th, 2008
however if you wanted to forge some email correspondence, that is just the sort of detail you would put in, using publicly available information, just to add a little verisimilitude. A bit like adding emails from Steve MacInyre, who publishes a lot of his email correspondence with people like Phil Jones anyway. The idea that Phil Jones reads Climate Audit seems a little far fetched if you ask me!
The files suggest that the entire warmist industry read not only CA but other web material. As always you should look at the evidence closely before venturing an opinion, though you are entitle to it.
That is a rather circular argument; the leaked emails prove they read CA, so the fact that a leaked email proves Jones reads CA proves the leaked email isn't a forgery! hehe

turbobloke

Original Poster:

103,737 posts

259 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
To ludo.

See 0905 post.

This would need to be fake also.

The director of Britain’s leading Climate Research Unit, Phil Jones, has told Investigate magazine’s TGIF Edition tonight that his organization has been hacked, and the data flying all over the internet appears to be genuine.

In an exclusive interview, Jones told TGIF, “It was a hacker. We were aware of this about three or four days ago that someone had hacked into our system and taken and copied loads of data files and emails.”

“Have you alerted police”

“Not yet. We were not aware of what had been taken.”

Jones says he was first tipped off to the security breach by colleagues at the website RealClimate.

“Real Climate were given information, but took it down off their site and told me they would send it across to me. They didn’t do that. I only found out it had been released five minutes ago.”


As Guam and myself and others are remaining cautious but realistic about this, your own uncritically loyal defence seems out of place. If you tie yourself to that view and the ship goes down you will sink without trace.

mondeoman

11,430 posts

265 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
ludo said:
turbobloke said:
Worth noting perhaps:

Climate Audit article by Steve McIntyre May 28th, 2008
Claimed e-mail in the UEA CRU hack file May 29th, 2008
however if you wanted to forge some email correspondence, that is just the sort of detail you would put in, using publicly available information, just to add a little verisimilitude. A bit like adding emails from Steve MacInyre, who publishes a lot of his email correspondence with people like Phil Jones anyway. The idea that Phil Jones reads Climate Audit seems a little far fetched if you ask me!

coffee

Spokey

2,246 posts

208 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
ludo said:
The idea that Phil Jones reads Climate Audit seems a little far fetched if you ask me!
I'm not so sure. Lots of people seem to like reading things that boil their piss.

ludo

5,308 posts

203 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
Guam said:
ludo said:
turbobloke said:
Worth noting perhaps:

Climate Audit article by Steve McIntyre May 28th, 2008
Claimed e-mail in the UEA CRU hack file May 29th, 2008
however if you wanted to forge some email correspondence, that is just the sort of detail you would put in, using publicly available information, just to add a little verisimilitude. A bit like adding emails from Steve MacInyre, who publishes a lot of his email correspondence with people like Phil Jones anyway. The idea that Phil Jones reads Climate Audit seems a little far fetched if you ask me!
Quite so

ETA It would suggest that if forged then the "Forger" has to be a player well versed in Science, the debate and the english language however, Russian Hackers do not normally fit this bill though?
Likewise it is the sort of detail that is easily added to add verisimitude, not difficult to post information on a Russian site and get someone else to claim credit. I am sure there are Russian denialists, just as there are denialists everywhere (and by denialists, I don't mean the true sceptics who hold their opinion in good faith).

This is the problem with a leak of this nature, it is hard to prove that it isn't a forgery, and it is equally hard to prove it is; any proof that it is a forgery from the CRU/Hadley will just be met by claims of a cover up. I wouldn't believe such a story if it were Spencer, Christy, Pielke etc that were the target, simply because it can't be clearly refuted even if it is false.

The Excession

11,669 posts

249 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
The 'RulesOfTheGame.pdf' document is pure dynamite!

turbobloke

Original Poster:

103,737 posts

259 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
This isn't a text message about a lunch with a secretary.

Caution due on both sides, but True Believer loyalty to the faith and the faithful is touching (cloth).

Bedford Rascal

29,469 posts

243 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
I've got to admit, I'm not au fait with organisations mentioned and not sure quite what ramifications will be (presumably it needs a decent mainstream media source (Telegraph perhaps?) to get their teeth into it)?

Watching with interest...

ludo

5,308 posts

203 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
To ludo.

See 0905 post.

This would need to be fake also.

The director of Britain’s leading Climate Research Unit, Phil Jones, has told Investigate magazine’s TGIF Edition tonight that his organization has been hacked, and the data flying all over the internet appears to be genuine.

In an exclusive interview, Jones told TGIF, “It was a hacker. We were aware of this about three or four days ago that someone had hacked into our system and taken and copied loads of data files and emails.”

“Have you alerted police”

“Not yet. We were not aware of what had been taken.”

Jones says he was first tipped off to the security breach by colleagues at the website RealClimate.

“Real Climate were given information, but took it down off their site and told me they would send it across to me. They didn’t do that. I only found out it had been released five minutes ago.”


As Guam and myself and others are remaining cautious but realistic about this, your own uncritically loyal defence seems out of place. If you tie yourself to that view and the ship goes down you will sink without trace.
I don't believe that for a minute either. Most academics know better than to talk on a matter like this other than through the press office, and I rather doubt he would have gone to an outlet such as that one. A carefully worded notice on the CRU website would be a much more likely first comment on the issue.

It isn't uncritical loyalty, if it were Spencer, Christy et el that were the targets, I would be expecting it to be a hoax as well. As I have pointed out if you wanted to indulge in a bit of scientific fraud, you would do it on a topic such as cloning, where such advances are pretty likely to be reproducable in a few years anyway (in which case there is a chance you will get away with it). You would have to be bloody stupid to do so with climate change, as if you know it is bullst, you will be proved wrong by the climate within your own lifetime, so there is little to gain (other than a prison sentence for fraud).

Bibbs

3,733 posts

209 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
Very interesting, but it'll be denied (or claim to be falsified).

The press wont report it, the government wont mention it, and we'll carry on paying our tax and scrapping our classics.


turbobloke

Original Poster:

103,737 posts

259 months

Friday 20th November 2009
quotequote all
ludo said:
turbobloke said:
To ludo.

See 0905 post.

This would need to be fake also.

The director of Britain’s leading Climate Research Unit, Phil Jones, has told Investigate magazine’s TGIF Edition tonight that his organization has been hacked, and the data flying all over the internet appears to be genuine.

In an exclusive interview, Jones told TGIF, “It was a hacker. We were aware of this about three or four days ago that someone had hacked into our system and taken and copied loads of data files and emails.”

“Have you alerted police”

“Not yet. We were not aware of what had been taken.”

Jones says he was first tipped off to the security breach by colleagues at the website RealClimate.

“Real Climate were given information, but took it down off their site and told me they would send it across to me. They didn’t do that. I only found out it had been released five minutes ago.”


As Guam and myself and others are remaining cautious but realistic about this, your own uncritically loyal defence seems out of place. If you tie yourself to that view and the ship goes down you will sink without trace.
I don't believe that for a minute either. Most academics know better than to talk on a matter like this other than through the press office, and I rather doubt he would have gone to an outlet such as that one. A carefully worded notice on the CRU website would be a much more likely first comment on the issue.

It isn't uncritical loyalty, if it were Spencer, Christy et el that were the targets, I would be expecting it to be a hoax as well. As I have pointed out if you wanted to indulge in a bit of scientific fraud, you would do it on a topic such as cloning, where such advances are pretty likely to be reproducable in a few years anyway (in which case there is a chance you will get away with it). You would have to be bloody stupid to do so with climate change, as if you know it is bullst, you will be proved wrong by the climate within your own lifetime, so there is little to gain (other than a prison sentence for fraud).
That interview disturbs me too. If the interview is fake but the documents and messages real, the concept of disinformation springs to mind.

We must wait and see.

If fake, somebody has gone to a MASSIVE amount of trouble over this.