Balanced Question Time panel tonight - of course not!

[FredClogs]

Mr_B said:

FredClogs said:

Mr_B said:

Who really buys he part time revolutionary act ? Surely only the most loony of students who think they are radicals, Fred Clogs and various other loons

I know you are, but what am I?

(Am I doing this correctly, it's not everyday that I descend to name calling strangers on the internet...)

There is nothing particularly revolutionary about Brand's stance, 70% of people already don't vote... Perhaps because most conversations on political ideology end up with someone calling someone a name... Eh? Mr B.

Are you doing your delicate flower act about name calling, while happy to infer racism as the only unfounded motivation against lots of people in various other threads on here ? Perhaps that thinking is a reason why people don't vote too and why some subjects have become so toxic for politicians to act sensibly on or for any debate here without that racist accusation... Eh? Mr Clog.

You infer, I imply. And I tend not to imply, I think something is racist (or someone) I'll just say it straight out... We're all a little bit racist aren't we? It's part of the human condition, I don't know why people take such offense at having it pointed out to them.

[Seventy]

FredClogs said:

70% of people already don't vote...

What a load of ill educated and mis-informed rubbish.

[Justayellowbadge]

VolvoT5 said:

I usually watch QT on Iplayer on a Friday but seeing that Russell Brand is on I am not sure I can stand to watch. Was he as bad as I am anticipating?

Edited by VolvoT5 on Friday 12th December 11:39

Empty shirt.

Not remotely effective enough to rile.

[motco]

MarshPhantom said:

Smiler. said:

I don't. But the whole of the south east is like one big city. It soon will be.

It really isn't and won't be any time soon.

Did you know that in Surrey there is more land used for golf courses than there is for housing?

That factoid regarding Surrey was trotted out this week by the OBR wallah, Stephen Nickell, who is quoted as saying "There's masses of room for more immigrants" and is, therefore, to be questioned.

An interesting analogy with respect to overpopulation comes from The Social Contract Press

Mark O'Connor said:

"A general principle of caution which we might call 'The Herpes
Principle' or 'The Prudence Principle,' this is while there are
practicable ways for a nation to increase its population, there are no
practicable short or medium term ways to reduce it markedly. Like
herpes, overpopulation is not necessarily unbearable, but there is no
known cure for it. Hence, unless one is very very sure that one doesn't
mind the condition (and its possible further consequences), one should
try to avoid it."

[HewManHeMan]

Abagnale said:

I made no mention of Labour, so I'm not sure why you're trying to drag me down that path?

As for the Euro elections, you discredit the electorate. People will use what they know to be meaningless votes to register a protest if they feel aggrieved. It's a well known phenomenon & not in any realistic sense proof of UKIP's unstoppable march. I also refer you to Bolter, Bloom, Kilroy-Silk, John Houston, David Abbott, Geoffrey Clarke, gay marriage for flooding and any number of frankly incredible (in the purest sense of the word) fk ups they have made in the past ten years that doubtless will attract within minutes some fanboi to point out indiscretions within other partys & how UKIP come under unfair levels of scrutiny.

Bullst. It attracts a disproportionate amount of fearful people because it peddles overly simplistic rhetoric that appeals largely to the hard of thinking such as people who watch on as Camilla Cavendish speaks insightfully & lucidly on QT then take to their keyboards the next morning to express how they would like to fk her.

Top debating.

You've said everything my brain would like to, but hasn't the capacity to fully articulate.

Good work.

[Guybrush]

TEKNOPUG said:

FredClogs said:

TEKNOPUG said:

The poor might be less poor if there wasn't a limitless supply of cheap foreign labour, driving down wages and encouraging zero-hour contracts. I appreciate that this viewpoint confirms that I'm a fear-mongering racist...

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for such a discussion, but the point you raise should be scrutinised as if often repeated as a truth but I suspect when you really look into it you'll find little evidence that it is the case and given that UKIP are a party who wholeheartedly extol the virtues of Hayekian based market economics I very much doubt that they'll do anything to create market regulation when it comes to peoples individual employment contracts and wages. If you want controlled wages and representation in the workplace then you'll probably want to vote labour.

Suspect.....doubt.....probably....so in summary, you don't know?

I can tell you for certain that wages are determined by demand for labour versus supply of labour. If supply of labour exceeds demand, then wages are only going one way.

Yes exactly. It's a simple truth that the left continually ignore and never answer when confronted. Mass immigration will drive wages down. And it will drive house prices up as a shortage will be created. And it will make the NHS very busy. And it will make the roads very busy. When will the left answer to those simple points?

[whoami]

Abagnale said:

attracts a disproportionate amount of fearful people because it peddles overly simplistic rhetoric that appeals largely to the hard of thinking

That sums up Brand beautifully.

[Du1point8]

Guybrush said:

TEKNOPUG said:

FredClogs said:

TEKNOPUG said:

The poor might be less poor if there wasn't a limitless supply of cheap foreign labour, driving down wages and encouraging zero-hour contracts. I appreciate that this viewpoint confirms that I'm a fear-mongering racist...

I'm not sure if this is the correct thread for such a discussion, but the point you raise should be scrutinised as if often repeated as a truth but I suspect when you really look into it you'll find little evidence that it is the case and given that UKIP are a party who wholeheartedly extol the virtues of Hayekian based market economics I very much doubt that they'll do anything to create market regulation when it comes to peoples individual employment contracts and wages. If you want controlled wages and representation in the workplace then you'll probably want to vote labour.

Suspect.....doubt.....probably....so in summary, you don't know?

I can tell you for certain that wages are determined by demand for labour versus supply of labour. If supply of labour exceeds demand, then wages are only going one way.

Yes exactly. It's a simple truth that the left continually ignore and never answer when confronted. Mass immigration will drive wages down. And it will drive house prices up as a shortage will be created. And it will make the NHS very busy. And it will make the roads very busy. When will the left answer to those simple points?

Why would the population listen?

Labour created the whole mess by opening the doors, no-one can do anything about it due to EU, except try and leave.

If Labour had prepared a points system then this whole st storm would have been more controlled and the government wouldn't need to magic up another 30-40k homes out of their ass as the EU citizens are coming in faster than anything can be built.

[SunsetZed]

Am I the only one who was annoyed more by the bloke who had a go at the Conservative lady (or love in Brand speak) than the blue haired twunt. He had a go asking about why politicians were getting an 11% pay rise and then when she explained why she wouldn't take it if she was re-elected he accused her of not answering the question and said it was due to an independent body setting it.

Clearly he was trying to set a trap and wasn't happy that she avoided it. This is the problem I have with politics, he'd decided he was going to criticise her regardless of what she said so he ignored her sensible reply entirely.

Oh and as for Brand going off on one about his mate the fireman who has to do heavy lifting so should be allowed to retire at 55 don't get me started on that. Presumably he has a list of private sector jobs containing builders, road workers etc. who should also be allowed to access their pension funds at this age as well?

[anonymous-user]

Every so often I watch question time in the vain hope a politician of significance may say something near the truth but last night 'russell brand'. WTF is that vain, rude crass idiot doing on the show. I think he is 'orrible and a waste of oxygen.

Can't watch newsnight cos Evan Davis is pathetic and nevers asks a sensible question, at this rate i'll have to watch politics on itv...

[HonestIago]

FredClogs said:

HonestIago said:

FredClogs said:

I don't think he did, I think he suggested that UKIP and the likes want to remove the social support from the poorest and most vulnerable in society, the disabled being an example there of, he didn't suggest Farage was in support of people going out and rolling over wheel chairs.

And Brand is right, the poorest in society would suffer most under a government influenced by Farage particular social ideals, his party is one set up with the express purpose of the further concentration of the UKs remaining wealth into the hands of fewer and fewer people.

I'm not aware of any such UKIP policies, please enlighten me.

Reduced welfare spending, tax cuts for the rich, grammer schools... UKIP is chock full or people who think the Tories have gone soft we all know it, an appeal to any political parties manifesto or policy statement as an explanation of their beliefs and motives is ridiculous, we all know politicians lie and deceive, don't kid yourself that UKIP are any different.

Welfare spending could be curtailed significantly without affecting the genuinely disabled or disadvantaged. There is an enormous contingent of what was the working class who have been coaxed into a life of welfare dependence by NuLabour and have since been left to fester. Labour don't care, their votes are assured. The Tories aren't too fussed as they know they'd never vote for them anyway.

UKIP's taxation policy would give tax cuts to EVERYONE, they want a £13.5k personal allowance IIRC. Naturally, the rich will gain more NOMINALLY from tax cuts, they were paying a lot more in the first place. Screwing the rich does NOT benefit those at the bottom of society no matter how loudly the likes of Brand may shriek.

Grammar schools would significantly improve prospects for children of the poor and engender greater social mobility. Quite how you can oppose them is beyond me.

[williamp]

How it used to be...

http://youtu.be/JX2ziMnm2tw

Live from Wembley!

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Abagnale said:

Bullst. Labour / Conservative / Liberal Democrats attracts a disproportionate amount of fearful people because it peddles overly simplistic rhetoric that appeals largely to the hard of thinking.

Fixed that for you. UKIP is a symptom of the UK European politics. You have watched Ed Milliband or Master Nick Clegg or D. Cameron Esq. in action ? Sound bite politics at its best. Cavendish was a pleasure to listen to, well thought out rational answers.

[Abagnale]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Abagnale said:

Bullst. Labour / Conservative / Liberal Democrats attracts a disproportionate amount of fearful people because it peddles overly simplistic rhetoric that appeals largely to the hard of thinking.

Fixed that for you. UKIP is a symptom of the UK European politics. You have watched Ed Milliband or Master Nick Clegg or D. Cameron Esq. in action ? Sound bite politics at its best. Cavendish was a pleasure to listen to, well thought out rational answers.

I'd agree with you, save to add, UKIP is a symptom of the main parties failures. Where I diverge with many here is believing it isn't the cure. Brand is the wrong man at the right time in my view, but so is Farage.

[chris watton]

Abagnale said:

I'd agree with you, save to add, UKIP is a symptom of the main parties failures. Where I diverge with many here is believing it isn't the cure. Brand is the wrong man at the right time in my view, but so is Farage.

In your opinion, who would be the best man/woman at the right time?

[fido]

motco said:

OBR wallah, Stephen Nickell

That name rings a bell ..

In a February 2008 Bloomberg interview, shortly before the start of the worst recession since the Great Depression, he said: 'The actual size of the downturn is minute, how big is it going to be? I don't know, but it won't be very big.' 'My instinct is that a slowdown in the British economy won't be that slow, I wouldn't do 50 basis points, or a 0.5 percentage point cut, at tomorrow's decision. And the chances of them doing 50 are zero. It makes it look as if you think there's something really serious going on here.'

Another knighthood from the Brown era!!

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Abagnale said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Abagnale said:

Bullst. Labour / Conservative / Liberal Democrats attracts a disproportionate amount of fearful people because it peddles overly simplistic rhetoric that appeals largely to the hard of thinking.

Fixed that for you. UKIP is a symptom of the UK European politics. You have watched Ed Milliband or Master Nick Clegg or D. Cameron Esq. in action ? Sound bite politics at its best. Cavendish was a pleasure to listen to, well thought out rational answers.

I'd agree with you, save to add, UKIP is a symptom of the main parties failures. Where I diverge with many here is believing it isn't the cure. Brand is the wrong man at the right time in my view, but so is Farage.

I agree, they have put items on the agenda that previously were simply shouted down.

[King Cnut]

HonestIago said:

Grammar schools would significantly improve prospects for children of the poor and engender greater social mobility. Quite how you can oppose them is beyond me.

No (1) in places where there are still grammar schools, the vast majority of places are taken by middle class children and (2) bringing back grammar schools means bringing back secondary moderns, too. The vast majority of the poor children you refer to were sent to secondary moderns.

Grammar schools are not the answer to the real problem we face which is the failure to address the problem of low achievement the less able end of the spectrum - the kind of kids who got sent to secondary mods. These are the kids that require the most effort and resources.

According to Russell Brand, Farage thinks hitting children to make them scared is the answer to our problems...

[Abagnale]

chris watton said:

In your opinion, who would be the best man/woman at the right time?

I don't know - honest answer. I know it's not Brand. For instance, one of his ideas in Revolution is to cancel all bank debt. He overlooks the fact that doing so would cause all banks to cease lending immediately & cause the collapse of the global economy. In one move. It's literally incredible.

Equally, Farage is so far beyond what this country has historically been about that it's not him either. He's nebulous, light on realistic policy & prone to giving glimpses of extreme right wingery that were I the Queen, I just couldn't bring myself to give him the keys.

Unfortunately, Cameron & Miliband aren't up to much either & the less said about Clegg the better. In short, I don't have your answer, I'm agnostic politically & no one turns me on out of this crop but I will say this: I can't remember a time like this since the early eighties where ideology is to the fore & politics is at least exciting. I'm not sorry to see the end of centrist managerial, target led government-lite.

[MarshPhantom]

Smiler. said:

JustAnotherLogin said:

Smiler. said:

I don't. But the whole of the south east is like one big city. It soon will be.

Oh I agree the SE is over-crowded.

But then if you choose to live around a major capital city then frankly you should expect that

That doesn't mean the whole country is

Smiler also said:

Some parts absolutely are

We agree then.

And this "choosing to live" bks......

Scuffers said:

MarshPhantom said:

Smiler. said:

I don't. But the whole of the south east is like one big city. It soon will be.

It really isn't and won't be any time soon.

Did you know that in Surrey there is more land used for golf courses than there is for housing?

I assume you have real evidence to back this up with (cause it sounds like b00l0cks to me)

the reality is that even if you just draw the line at the M25, there are some 12M people living within that line, (and that's based on the ones that actually appear on the census, there are a huge number that don't), in an area that's only some 2,600 square miles (UK is a total of 94,000) so some 2.7% is inside the M25 yet has ~18% of the population.

remind me how that's not over-crowded?

Quite.

It's a lefty thing. They will argue black is blue depending upon who said what. After the labour performance on last night's QT, they must be feeling a bit surplus to requirements.

There are vast swathes of unspoilt countryside just 20 miles from central London.