Tax Avoidance = Immoral
Discussion
Steffan said:
Unfortunately the UK has slid into being a society over the last forty odd years, where utter selfishness and sole concern with No 1, has become the mantra for a great many individuals.
Exemplified by feckless, reckless, dishonest self serving politicians who are driven by greed, self aggrandisment and the celebrity culture.
I personally consider the feckless benefits scroungers worse than tax avoider's because the tax avoider's have generally made some effort initially to become rich enough to need to avoid tax,. Whereas the feckless benefits scroungers are frequently on the take from the cradle to the grave.
But it is a moot distinction. The culture of selfishness is utterly destructive.
Exemplified by feckless, reckless, dishonest self serving politicians who are driven by greed, self aggrandisment and the celebrity culture.
I personally consider the feckless benefits scroungers worse than tax avoider's because the tax avoider's have generally made some effort initially to become rich enough to need to avoid tax,. Whereas the feckless benefits scroungers are frequently on the take from the cradle to the grave.
But it is a moot distinction. The culture of selfishness is utterly destructive.
Also, it's worth pointing out that many of Italy's current financial problems stem from an endemic culture of tax avoidance and high-level corruption. Italy's actually quite a wealthy country, it's just that it struggles to run itself as a civil society because so much of its money stays in people's pockets (or ends up in other people's as a result of corruption).Steffan said:
Unfortunately the UK has slid into being a society over the last forty odd years, where utter selfishness and sole concern with No 1, has become the mantra for a great many individuals.
Exemplified by feckless, reckless, dishonest self serving politicians who are driven by greed, self aggrandisment and the celebrity culture.
There is an element of that for sure.Exemplified by feckless, reckless, dishonest self serving politicians who are driven by greed, self aggrandisment and the celebrity culture.
Steffan said:
I personally consider the feckless benefits scroungers worse than tax avoiders because the tax avoider's have generally made some effort initially to become rich enough to need to avoid tax. Whereas the feckless benefits scroungers are frequently on the take from the cradle to the grave.
And yes there is an element of that too. When looking at relative guilt and blame, not Party politically but as neutrally as I can manage, I still think that those so-called selfish individuals earning at the top 1% of the population but who collectively pay about 30% of all income tax even with avoidance schemes in place, deserve less criticism than those milking the system aka the idle sefish who pay zero tax and conribute little else while taking all the time. So I wouldn't lump them together as being equivalent in the wider scheme of things.
Note: no criticism of the genuinely needy is implied, but criticism of the corrupt is always deserved.
turbobloke said:
Steffan said:
Unfortunately the UK has slid into being a society over the last forty odd years, where utter selfishness and sole concern with No 1, has become the mantra for a great many individuals.
Exemplified by feckless, reckless, dishonest self serving politicians who are driven by greed, self aggrandisment and the celebrity culture.
There is an element of that for sure.Exemplified by feckless, reckless, dishonest self serving politicians who are driven by greed, self aggrandisment and the celebrity culture.
Steffan said:
I personally consider the feckless benefits scroungers worse than tax avoiders because the tax avoider's have generally made some effort initially to become rich enough to need to avoid tax. Whereas the feckless benefits scroungers are frequently on the take from the cradle to the grave.
And yes there is an element of that too. When looking at relative guilt and blame, not Party politically but as neutrally as I can manage, I still think that those so-called selfish individuals earning at the top 1% of the population but who collectively pay about 30% of all income tax even with avoidance schemes in place, deserve less criticism than those milking the system aka the idle sefish who pay zero tax and conribute little else while taking all the time. So I wouldn't lump them together as being equivalent in the wider scheme of things.
Note: no criticism of the genuinely needy is implied, but criticism of the corrupt is always deserved.
But the feckless scroungers are by far the more deadly of the two. Which is demonstrated by the huge defecit in public finances caused by excessive benefits.
The overall level of taxation within the UK is already far too high. It is the Benefits Scroungers and Scammers that the state needs to deal with. I think sadly, it will not.
Twincam16 said:
Eric Mc said:
Look at societies where taxation is poorly developed and see how those who are less well off or at the bottom of the food chain are treated.
I suspect that many people on this thread, and on the 'pro-avoidance' side of the argument in general, are fully aware of this, and honestly couldn't give a s
t, because they're 'winners'.It's an attitude a lot of people stick to right up to the point where they or one of their relatives develops a terminal or life-changing illness, or they get hit by the full force of economic change, and they finally realise the importance of having a bigger pot that the whole of society pays into to get the bigger things we all need out of it, rather than thinking that because they can pay their personal way, everyone else should do and just accept a lower standard of existence with regard to things like health and education as 'punishment' for not being as rich as they are.
And as for the usual 'jealousy' accusations and calls to 'just work harder' - there are all manner of absolutely vital jobs and professions where you can work so hard your face sticks like that, and you won't make any more money. Do they not deserve schools and hospitals, or their streets cleaning and rubbish taking away?
This is why there is a gulf between those who argue against the size of welfare payments and 'corporate welfare'. THe corporations who do deals to get a tax break, or infrastructure investment etc can negotiate these because they are giving something back in return.
I think if the entire UK gov spending was analysed as a 'risk pool' and an annual 'premium' was calculated, then we would have an idea of what value for money we were getting.
Steffan said:
The overall level of taxation within the UK is already far too high. It is the Benefits Scroungers and Scammers that the state needs to deal with. I think sadly, it will not.
I don't think our tax is too high but I agree the wastage and handouts to the feckless are far too high. I think people wouldn't mind paying more if they thought the money was being wisely spent on schools, hospitals, apprenticeships and schemes to help people get an education and jobs. Not on people who simply can't be arsed getting a job or failing schools or hospitals. More equitable societies with higher taxation tend to be happier places and generally 'better' countries to live in. The lower the difference between earnings through taxation leads to lower levels of alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy etc etc etc. High taxation is a good thing for a society , as long as the money is wisely spent.
el stovey said:
Steffan said:
The overall level of taxation within the UK is already far too high. It is the Benefits Scroungers and Scammers that the state needs to deal with. I think sadly, it will not.
I don't think our tax is too high but I agree the wastage and handouts to the feckless are far too high. I think people wouldn't mind paying more if they thought the money was being wisely spent on schools, hospitals, apprenticeships and schemes to help people get an education and jobs. Not on people who simply can't be arsed getting a job or failing schools or hospitals. More equitable societies with higher taxation tend to be happier places and generally 'better' countries to live in. The lower the difference between earnings through taxation leads to lower levels of alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy etc etc etc. High taxation is a good thing for a society , as long as the money is wisely spent.
Seems that this level of spending (and borrowing) hasn't brought significant improvement in outcomes has it?
Will more spend help?
How about better spending?
el stovey said:
I don't think our tax is too high but I agree the wastage and handouts to the feckless are far too high. I think people wouldn't mind paying more if they thought the money was being wisely spent on schools, hospitals, apprenticeships and schemes to help people get an education and jobs. Not on people who simply can't be arsed getting a job or failing schools or hospitals.
More equitable societies with higher taxation tend to be happier places and generally 'better' countries to live in. The lower the difference between earnings through taxation leads to lower levels of alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy etc etc etc. High taxation is a good thing for a society , as long as the money is wisely spent.
If you're happy to pay more tax, then I please be my guest.More equitable societies with higher taxation tend to be happier places and generally 'better' countries to live in. The lower the difference between earnings through taxation leads to lower levels of alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy etc etc etc. High taxation is a good thing for a society , as long as the money is wisely spent.
Do you not think that the problem is the state is too big, ergo it will never raise enough in tax to operate as it sees fit? The inbuilt inefficiencies in having such a monolith controlling 50% plus of a nations spending would ensure an ever expanding budget, squeezing out the productive sector. Sound familiar?
How do they get on in those countries where taxation is higher than the UK - you know those hellholes of Norway, Sweden, Holland, Germany etc.
Those countries are REALLY the pits.
On the other hand, and in complete contrast, you have those pradises where tax is low or non-existant, or nobody bothers paying - like Greece, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
Those countries are REALLY the pits.
On the other hand, and in complete contrast, you have those pradises where tax is low or non-existant, or nobody bothers paying - like Greece, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
el stovey said:
Steffan said:
The overall level of taxation within the UK is already far too high. It is the Benefits Scroungers and Scammers that the state needs to deal with. I think sadly, it will not.
I don't think our tax is too high but I agree the wastage and handouts to the feckless are far too high. I think people wouldn't mind paying more if they thought the money was being wisely spent on schools, hospitals, apprenticeships and schemes to help people get an education and jobs. Not on people who simply can't be arsed getting a job or failing schools or hospitals. More equitable societies with higher taxation tend to be happier places and generally 'better' countries to live in. The lower the difference between earnings through taxation leads to lower levels of alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy etc etc etc. High taxation is a good thing for a society , as long as the money is wisely spent.
However, a truly liberal political system centres on a contract between the state and the individual, as laid out in Jean-Jacques Rousseau's The Social Contract and expanded on by John Stuart Mill in On Liberty. In short, the state will extend you certain freedoms under the law, but in return certain responsibilities are expected of you. This doesn't just extend to 'not breaking the law', but also taking the opportunities extended to you - education, learning, work, the chance to better yourself and society. There's also a moral dimension which seems to have been lost or centred on the law - the recognition of your moral choices and how they affect society. Take drinking for example - yes, you're allowed to drink, and within your limits you're fine. However, if you get drunk on a regular basis you put a greater strain on the emergency services, your family, your workplace etc. Therefore a responsible citizen, under true modern liberalism, sticks to their limits.
You could say the same about tax. Individuals need to know precisely what their tax is going on, but they also need to know how much they cost the state. Once they had the balance sheet (and the correct political and moral education), they could see how well they're maintaining that social contract.
Don't almost all pension schemes in the UK 'avoid' tax by using salary sacrifice schemes and so on?
In my view it's not avoidance, it's just creativity within the constraints of the system.
If they don't want people avoiding tax, then remove the ability to be flexible within it. It's not hard.
Imo they should simply it. The idea a complex tax system is a reflection of a prosperous economy is just wrong in my view. A complex tax system allows you to force things in different directions if you want (behaviour), but why not just make legislation to do that independent of taxation?
Trying to make tax complex enough to change societies behaviour and then complain that tax avoidance is immoral is really quite retarded.
Dave
In my view it's not avoidance, it's just creativity within the constraints of the system.
If they don't want people avoiding tax, then remove the ability to be flexible within it. It's not hard.
Imo they should simply it. The idea a complex tax system is a reflection of a prosperous economy is just wrong in my view. A complex tax system allows you to force things in different directions if you want (behaviour), but why not just make legislation to do that independent of taxation?
Trying to make tax complex enough to change societies behaviour and then complain that tax avoidance is immoral is really quite retarded.
Dave
Eric Mc said:
How do they get on in those countries where taxation is higher than the UK - you know those hellholes of Norway, Sweden, Holland, Germany etc.
Those countries are REALLY the pits.
On the other hand, and in complete contrast, you have those pradises where tax is low or non-existant, or nobody bothers paying - like Greece, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
Reasonably disingenuous Those countries are REALLY the pits.
On the other hand, and in complete contrast, you have those pradises where tax is low or non-existant, or nobody bothers paying - like Greece, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
It might help to mention the non-transferable aspects such as culture, including nature of as well as the lack of, and other key features particularly regarding the so-called low tax regimes you cite.
Eric Mc said:
How do they get on in those countries where taxation is higher than the UK - you know those hellholes of Norway, Sweden, Holland, Germany etc.
Those countries are REALLY the pits.
On the other hand, and in complete contrast, you have those pradises where tax is low or non-existant, or nobody bothers paying - like Greece, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
You forgot Honk Kong, Singapore, BVI etc in your list Eric.Those countries are REALLY the pits.
On the other hand, and in complete contrast, you have those pradises where tax is low or non-existant, or nobody bothers paying - like Greece, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
Culture is probably the key factor;
Some people appear to recognise that the price of living in a healthy stable democracy is the provision of certain services to all of its residents, funded via general taxation. Others want to reap the benefits whilst paying as little as possible towards the cost.
Parasites is a word that springs to mind.
Some people appear to recognise that the price of living in a healthy stable democracy is the provision of certain services to all of its residents, funded via general taxation. Others want to reap the benefits whilst paying as little as possible towards the cost.
Parasites is a word that springs to mind.
johnfm said:
Eric Mc said:
How do they get on in those countries where taxation is higher than the UK - you know those hellholes of Norway, Sweden, Holland, Germany etc.
Those countries are REALLY the pits.
On the other hand, and in complete contrast, you have those pradises where tax is low or non-existant, or nobody bothers paying - like Greece, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
You forgot Honk Kong, Singapore, BVI etc in your list Eric.Those countries are REALLY the pits.
On the other hand, and in complete contrast, you have those pradises where tax is low or non-existant, or nobody bothers paying - like Greece, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.
I also think city states such as Hong Kong and Singapore are very different to nation states.
Do we want to live like the Chinese or like Northern Europeans?
Countdown said:
If they are taking less in tax then they will be providing less in services. It's a zero sum game.
Would be interesting to know how many care homes they provide for the Elderly
Culturally the family look after their own elderley in some of these instances, hence they do not need central taxation to fund it. They are also a bit harder nosed generally about what is affordable/necessary. In fact I would bet that social aspects like this are treated very differently in all such places.Would be interesting to know how many care homes they provide for the Elderly
I'm not sure who has it right. Ignoring the weather, and the size of it, Singapore's not a bad place.
The Don of Croy said:
el stovey said:
I don't think our tax is too high but I agree the wastage and handouts to the feckless are far too high. I think people wouldn't mind paying more if they thought the money was being wisely spent on schools, hospitals, apprenticeships and schemes to help people get an education and jobs. Not on people who simply can't be arsed getting a job or failing schools or hospitals.
More equitable societies with higher taxation tend to be happier places and generally 'better' countries to live in. The lower the difference between earnings through taxation leads to lower levels of alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy etc etc etc. High taxation is a good thing for a society , as long as the money is wisely spent.
If you're happy to pay more tax, then I please be my guest.More equitable societies with higher taxation tend to be happier places and generally 'better' countries to live in. The lower the difference between earnings through taxation leads to lower levels of alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy etc etc etc. High taxation is a good thing for a society , as long as the money is wisely spent.
Do you not think that the problem is the state is too big, ergo it will never raise enough in tax to operate as it sees fit? The inbuilt inefficiencies in having such a monolith controlling 50% plus of a nations spending would ensure an ever expanding budget, squeezing out the productive sector. Sound familiar?
My five easy steps to making The UK great again.
1. Pay unemployed benefits in vouchers for food utility bills etc. Cap child benefit at one child.
2. Reduce the size of the state and state pensions, military spending and foreign aid.
3. Increase spending on health and education.
4. Provide Jobs and apprenticeships by supporting traditional industries and employers in poor areas. Also create compulsory training and jobs for people out of work for more than six months reducing decay (cleaning the streets/parks repairing roads etc) making the place look nicer.
5. Provide a sense of trust and society by compulsory national service and everyone has annual civic days where we all have to do worthwhile community work.
el stovey said:
The Don of Croy said:
el stovey said:
I don't think our tax is too high but I agree the wastage and handouts to the feckless are far too high. I think people wouldn't mind paying more if they thought the money was being wisely spent on schools, hospitals, apprenticeships and schemes to help people get an education and jobs. Not on people who simply can't be arsed getting a job or failing schools or hospitals.
More equitable societies with higher taxation tend to be happier places and generally 'better' countries to live in. The lower the difference between earnings through taxation leads to lower levels of alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy etc etc etc. High taxation is a good thing for a society , as long as the money is wisely spent.
If you're happy to pay more tax, then I please be my guest.More equitable societies with higher taxation tend to be happier places and generally 'better' countries to live in. The lower the difference between earnings through taxation leads to lower levels of alcoholism, drug abuse, crime, teenage pregnancy, illiteracy etc etc etc. High taxation is a good thing for a society , as long as the money is wisely spent.
Do you not think that the problem is the state is too big, ergo it will never raise enough in tax to operate as it sees fit? The inbuilt inefficiencies in having such a monolith controlling 50% plus of a nations spending would ensure an ever expanding budget, squeezing out the productive sector. Sound familiar?
My five easy steps to making The UK great again.
1. Pay unemployed benefits in vouchers for food utility bills etc. Cap child benefit at one child.
2. Reduce the size of the state and state pensions, military spending and foreign aid.
3. Increase spending on health and education.
4. Provide Jobs and apprenticeships by supporting traditional industries and employers in poor areas. Also create compulsory training and jobs for people out of work for more than six months reducing decay (cleaning the streets/parks repairing roads etc) making the place look nicer.
5. Provide a sense of trust and society by compulsory national service and everyone has annual civic days where we all have to do worthwhile community work.
The more I think about society's ills, the more I see education as the answer. And it need not cost the earth. Just sort out the supply chain - better teachers, good infrastructure, maybe a little intervention beyond the classroom when absolutely necessary. Get a generation properly set up, and they'll take it from there...
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