Linda Norgrove.....

[Frankeh]

I've played enough counterstrike to know that you flash the hostage room, then enter.
Grenading the hostage room gets you kicked from the server.

[armynick]

mattviatura said:

Also why the hell did they turn up in helicopters?

"Hey you bad guys, we're coming".

I'm not one of the PH anti-yanks and don't wish to undermine the bravery of those involved but surely we should be using our own hostage rescue troops for this sort of thing.

The type of terrain here dictates that sometimes to move fast, you need HELOs. There might have been limited ground routes to the target, so they would have had even less chance of getting near to them.

From what I understand they had to move fast as she was about to be moved on and they could have have lost her.

[Blib]

How about this?

It was a message to potential hostage takers.

" Whenever you take a Western hostage, we won't negotiate. Instead, we'll take you out, the hostage out, the whole village out, if you do this again."

[armynick]

Frankeh said:

We probably should have sent in the SAS or at least let our troops have a go.
My friend is in the RAF and he says that the US army are every bit as useless as you'd imagine them to be.

They're not all useless, they have some very good units. I suspect someone in the RAF would only have contact with the US Army back in bases. Not on the ground

[Corsair7]

The real reason the US special forces carried out this rescue attempt was probably because they had the equipment to do it and our forces didnt.

[Timsta]

Frankeh said:

I've played enough counterstrike to know that you flash the hostage room, then enter.
Grenading the hostage room gets you kicked from the server.

Done it plenty of times in MW2. Breach the room and take out the hostage takers when it all slows down.
[/silly mode]

[Frankeh]

armynick said:

Frankeh said:

We probably should have sent in the SAS or at least let our troops have a go.
My friend is in the RAF and he says that the US army are every bit as useless as you'd imagine them to be.

They're not all useless, they have some very good units. I suspect someone in the RAF would only have contact with the US Army back in bases. Not on the ground

He's ground forces in the RAF. He's a gunner.

[DonkeyApple]

hornetrider said:

dodgyviper said:

DonkeyApple said:

Obviously, a large number of special forces and combat specialists who having studied the terrain, the live situation and evaluated all the available intel on PH would have done it differently. If only the British Govt had thought to make that all important phone call to a fat, bald bloke wking off over his keyboard this could have all been different.

Firstly, a huge thanks for all those soldiers who risked their own lives trying to save a Briton.

Secondly, condolences to the family of a woman who believed she was doing the right thing.

Thank you - it's not just me that wishes these Alf Garnetts would just tt off this forum

Listen cockpiece. I've read enough Tom Clancy to know you don't bung a grenade at the person you are trying to rescue.

Just sayin'.

But Tom had an incling as to where the hostage was because it was his story!!!!!

[anonymous-user]

Ignoring all the histrionics about how we musn't be mean about the Yanks and their Army etc

Do they not have a fairly bad reputation full stop?

Haven't they got a history of friendly fire incidents?

Would you not naturally just have more faith in the SAS?

I know I would, we have a history of getting it right not getting it wrong surely

[mattviatura]

armynick said:

The type of terrain here dictates that sometimes to move fast, you need HELOs. There might have been limited ground routes to the target, so they would have had even less chance of getting near to them.

From what I understand they had to move fast as she was about to be moved on and they could have have lost her.

Fair point and thanks for the reasonable answer. I don't have any experience of this and thought it was a fair question.

Look after yourself.

[dodgyviper]

DonkeyApple said:

hornetrider said:

dodgyviper said:

DonkeyApple said:

Obviously, a large number of special forces and combat specialists who having studied the terrain, the live situation and evaluated all the available intel on PH would have done it differently. If only the British Govt had thought to make that all important phone call to a fat, bald bloke wking off over his keyboard this could have all been different.

Firstly, a huge thanks for all those soldiers who risked their own lives trying to save a Briton.

Secondly, condolences to the family of a woman who believed she was doing the right thing.

Thank you - it's not just me that wishes these Alf Garnetts would just tt off this forum

Listen cockpiece. I've read enough Tom Clancy to know you don't bung a grenade at the person you are trying to rescue.

Just sayin'.

But Tom had an incling as to where the hostage was because it was his story!!!!!

Perhaps I was doing Alf a disservice. I assume your next post is going to involve a Parrot on a stand leaning in a strong sidewind.

"Read enough Tom Clancy????"

Along with :-

Frankeh said:

I've played enough counterstrike to know that you flash the hostage room, then enter.
Grenading the hostage room gets you kicked from the server.

Jeez if only the virtual warriors would take the place of the real ones then the war will be over by Christmas (see what I did there?).


Condolences to this brave young woman's family - a tragedy.

For those who consider we shouldn't have attempted the rescue, can I suggest you research Afghan treatment of prisoners during the Russian occupation. These people haven't changed a bit since then.

[armynick]

Bottom line gents, she constantly refused her ex-pat security so she only has herself to blame. (I have that info from the horses mouth)

I have no sympathy with these do-gooder, tree huggers who come over here thinking they immune to danger. They think no one wants to harm them, even though they are fully briefed of the dangers.

A lot of them are on their own adjendas and live in fantasy worlds and they are often rude and arrogant towards their security, if they are forced to use us. I had to ask to be moved from one location last year for fear of losing my professionalism and kicking some of the clients out of the vehicle and leaving by the roadside.

These people often ignore local customs or cultures and invite trouble. They treat it like a playground to further ones career or to get subject matter for a book.

The American SEALS no doubt did what they could.

[armynick]

mattviatura said:

armynick said:

The type of terrain here dictates that sometimes to move fast, you need HELOs. There might have been limited ground routes to the target, so they would have had even less chance of getting near to them.

From what I understand they had to move fast as she was about to be moved on and they could have have lost her.

Fair point and thanks for the reasonable answer. I don't have any experience of this and thought it was a fair question.

Look after yourself.

I've just been told that the area in question was extremely steep and barely accessable.

[Frankeh]

dodgyviper said:

Jeez if only the virtual warriors would take the place of the real ones then the war will be over by Christmas (see what I did there?).

Whoosh.

[DonkeyApple]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

If we landed as many grunts as the Yanks did then we would have the same number of friendly fire incidents as them.

This st happens in conflict, but as they outnumber the Brits on the ground and the air then the raw numbers will not favour them.

You have to discount what various soldiers say about each other's outfits as they are no different from car mechanics or plumbers when assessing a rivals quality of work.

As for the SAS, when you cut through the patriotic jingoism and boys own tales you will find that just like anyone else they have their own history of errors. In fact, when you think about it many of the big stories are about stupid fkups where the story gets twisted around to continue the myth.

Bravo 20, a tale of a group of the most elite British troops monumentally fking up and the most inexperienced one managing to run away. That Chinnook crash on the Falklands and most of the firefights that have been picked up by the media were the result of errors. There is no doubt that they are brilliant but they train mostly for specialist roles which is why the Iranian Embassy went so well, plus the fact that nowadays everyone knows so much more about them.

The simple fact is that there will have been a reason why the Americans were deemed the better option for this task, whether it was equipment, logistics or having the rights guys for this specific task, we will probably never know or understand. The fact that they did not succeed is a tremendous shame for the girl and her familly but this is not Hollywood or Borders, it's real life. And in real life the graveyards of America and Britain are littered with brave, exellently trained men at the top of their game who got it wrong.

Whether US or British these people on the ground cannot be critised by people like us. We have no idea as to what they are going through but we can certainly appreciate the simple fact that they are risking their lives for a poxy salary.

In this case, American kids risked their lives for some British bint who thought it a smart idea to go to Afghanistan. To then go and slam those guys for not getting her out is quite frankly, when we are sitting in our nice homes in Blightly, a little bit sick.

[dodgyviper]

Frankeh said:

dodgyviper said:

Jeez if only the virtual warriors would take the place of the real ones then the war will be over by Christmas (see what I did there?).

Whoosh.

You forgot the parrot

[anonymous-user]

DonkeyApple said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

If we landed as many grunts as the Yanks did then we would have the same number of friendly fire incidents as them.

This st happens in conflict, but as they outnumber the Brits on the ground and the air then the raw numbers will not favour them.

You have to discount what various soldiers say about each other's outfits as they are no different from car mechanics or plumbers when assessing a rivals quality of work.

As for the SAS, when you cut through the patriotic jingoism and boys own tales you will find that just like anyone else they have their own history of errors. In fact, when you think about it many of the big stories are about stupid fkups where the story gets twisted around to continue the myth.

Bravo 20, a tale of a group of the most elite British troops monumentally fking up and the most inexperienced one managing to run away. That Chinnook crash on the Falklands and most of the firefights that have been picked up by the media were the result of errors. There is no doubt that they are brilliant but they train mostly for specialist roles which is why the Iranian Embassy went so well, plus the fact that nowadays everyone knows so much more about them.

The simple fact is that there will have been a reason why the Americans were deemed the better option for this task, whether it was equipment, logistics or having the rights guys for this specific task, we will probably never know or understand. The fact that they did not succeed is a tremendous shame for the girl and her familly but this is not Hollywood or Borders, it's real life. And in real life the graveyards of America and Britain are littered with brave, exellently trained men at the top of their game who got it wrong.

Whether US or British these people on the ground cannot be critised by people like us. We have no idea as to what they are going through but we can certainly appreciate the simple fact that they are risking their lives for a poxy salary.

In this case, American kids risked their lives for some British bint who thought it a smart idea to go to Afghanistan. To then go and slam those guys for not getting her out is quite frankly, when we are sitting in our nice homes in Blightly, a little bit sick.

Thankyou for putting it so eloquently, I stand corrected, it's not my place to sit here and criticise anyone who did what they did

Your and armynicks post are both superb

[Mr_B]

Sadly what this case highlights in the trend in drip feeding bad news in an effort to lessen the impact. Release the first part which is all very sad and tragic, then release the bit that might be controversial later when you hope everyone has forgotton or doesn't care to hear more bad news on an old story.

[DonkeyApple]

Mr_B said:

Sadly what this case highlights in the trend in drip feeding bad news in an effort to lessen the impact. Release the first part which is all very sad and tragic, then release the bit that might be controversial later when you hope everyone has forgotton or doesn't care to hear more bad news on an old story.

It might not even be that cynical. I suspect the modern world of 24hour media and iPhones means that nowadays stories get sent to press rooms in a matter of seconds so as to beat the competition but it is long before any real clarity and core facts fully come to light.

I suspect this story will run for some time and the media will split along relatively predicatable lines.

[armynick]

Mr_B said:

Sadly what this case highlights in the trend in drip feeding bad news in an effort to lessen the impact. Release the first part which is all very sad and tragic, then release the bit that might be controversial later when you hope everyone has forgotton or doesn't care to hear more bad news on an old story.

I think they have been quite quick and suprisingly very honest with this.

You have to take into account mopping up after the operation, de-briefings of guys on the ground, guys in the Ops rooms and colating the information, including surviellance info, breifing the top brass, then the suits in the US Gov, then they will have to brief the Brit Gov, then they will have to discuss it before they do a press release.

That's a lot of info and facts to get right and a lot of different people to brief. All from a war zone thousands of miles away. Not too bad really and very honest of the Americans this time.