EDL on Newsnight tonight.
Discussion
davepoth said:
The fact is, the leader of the EDL is not particularly eloquent, and has a less than ideal history. But his views are incredibly widely held, and I believe that rather than lumping them into the same group as the BNP, it would be a better idea to engage with them, and ensure that they do not become extremists themselves.
The problem is that they aren't eloquent enough to express their views, and come across as a slightly different shade of the BNP. Perhaps if they sorted themselves out, and found someone who could converse at a basic level, they might be able to explain what the difference is between themselves, and the new suited and polished image that the BNP are trying so hard to create.I've just finished watching this on Iplayer.
I'm not quite sure if Paxman is genuinely flabbergasted with what he is faced with, or if he thought he he would be able to beat this so-called "leader" with his intelligence. Paxman's performance annoyed me, because he became too emotionally involved, and his own point became to contrived. To coin a phrase "never argue with an idiot, they will being you down to their level and beat you with experience"
On Tommy Robinsons' performance- His problem is he isnt intelligent or eloquent enough to put his point across (something he freely admits).
I'm not quite sure if Paxman is genuinely flabbergasted with what he is faced with, or if he thought he he would be able to beat this so-called "leader" with his intelligence. Paxman's performance annoyed me, because he became too emotionally involved, and his own point became to contrived. To coin a phrase "never argue with an idiot, they will being you down to their level and beat you with experience"
On Tommy Robinsons' performance- His problem is he isnt intelligent or eloquent enough to put his point across (something he freely admits).
If he wants to argue against Islam as an ideology then that's his right but I wonder how many of his members have actually read the Koran in it's entirety?
He should look towards the like of Christopher Hitchens, Douglas Murray and Rod Liddle if he wants a strategy on how to 'debate' or argue against Islam.
Start a blog, write some letters, get yourself on radio etc. What his group is currently doing achieves very little apart from making themselves look like thugs.
He should look towards the like of Christopher Hitchens, Douglas Murray and Rod Liddle if he wants a strategy on how to 'debate' or argue against Islam.
Start a blog, write some letters, get yourself on radio etc. What his group is currently doing achieves very little apart from making themselves look like thugs.
I Love Lamp said:
The Koran, along with most religious text is open to interpretation.
Which is why the koran should be revised so as to be open to as little interpretation as possible.I Love Lamp said:
The Bible can be interpreted pretty bad!
And?How many young Christians read the bible from beginning to end?
How many attend church, except as tourists or when they're trying to wangle a wedding in one?
The bible is an irrelevance in modern-day Britain.
I Love Lamp said:
Pointless reading it IMO, as it's very unlikely to change ones already formed opinion.
I tend to agree. If you oppose fanatical Islam because you find it incompatible with the West, it's not really relevant if you've read it or not. If you oppose fanatical Islam because it goes against their teachings, that's completely different.DarrenL said:
On Tommy Robinsons' performance- His problem is he isnt intelligent or eloquent enough to put his point across (something he freely admits).
AgreedIf the EDL could find themselves a Pim Fortuyn figure they could do well. For IMO a message of racial inclusiveness but against extreme Islam has widespread appeal beyond the traditional ghettos of the NF, BNP etc.
JagLover said:
Agreed
If the EDL could find themselves a Pim Fortuyn figure they could do well. For IMO a message of racial inclusiveness but against extreme Islam has widespread appeal beyond the traditional ghettos of the NF, BNP etc.
+1.If the EDL could find themselves a Pim Fortuyn figure they could do well. For IMO a message of racial inclusiveness but against extreme Islam has widespread appeal beyond the traditional ghettos of the NF, BNP etc.
Done right it would, as the guy was sort of suggesting, even be popular with Muslims.
davepoth said:
I was struck by watching the Newsnight thing that the point the guy was failing to make was quite valid. Other immigrant populations have managed to integrate well into the culture of the UK, have brought something unique and special to the UK and have made it better. Many UK Muslims have done the same, have accepted certain key tenets of UK society, and are contributing wonderfully to society.
But there's an element that wants to preserve the hardline Islam that was prevalent in the areas they came from originally. That's a creed that denigrates women, people of other religions, and even other Muslims. Hate is not a part of any Abrahamic religion, regardless of what any radical says.
The fact is, the leader of the EDL is not particularly eloquent, and has a less than ideal history. But his views are incredibly widely held, and I believe that rather than lumping them into the same group as the BNP, it would be a better idea to engage with them, and ensure that they do not become extremists themselves.
before Islamic terrorism everyone saw british muslims as aspirational (my son will be a doctor) hardworking people who kept themselves to themselves. It was black kids who were troublemaking criminals, if only they were like the muslims....But there's an element that wants to preserve the hardline Islam that was prevalent in the areas they came from originally. That's a creed that denigrates women, people of other religions, and even other Muslims. Hate is not a part of any Abrahamic religion, regardless of what any radical says.
The fact is, the leader of the EDL is not particularly eloquent, and has a less than ideal history. But his views are incredibly widely held, and I believe that rather than lumping them into the same group as the BNP, it would be a better idea to engage with them, and ensure that they do not become extremists themselves.
(in the mind of xenophobes)
Wadeski said:
kept themselves to themselves.
They always say that about nutters. The problem is, nobody ever wants to do anything about crazy people if all they do is walk around muttering swearwords under their breath. It's only when they stab someone that the Daily Mail starts moaning about it...I Love Lamp said:
I don't know a lot about politics and understand than every action has a consequence. If the EDL/UAF are capable of setting up a party, which let's be honest, aren't exactly the brightest sparks, surely it can't be that difficult?
The Pistonhead Party - time for a new thread methinksEdited by I Love Lamp on Wednesday 2nd February 12:20
Jackleman said:
Just read that it is going to cost the tax payer £800,000 to police this group of amoeba today as they protest in Luton town centre.
This get's my piss boiling.
I have just read that the Muslim leaders have arranged meetings and what they call mediation sessions and asked that all of their young followers attend these and not counter demonstrate or inflame the thugs. Hope it works.This get's my piss boiling.
What an idiot!
BBC said:
EDL leader Stephen Lennon jailed for false passport offence
The leader of the English Defence League has been jailed for 10 months for using someone else's passport to travel to the USA.
Stephen Lennon, 30, from Luton, admitted possession of a false identity document with improper intention.
Lennon used a passport in the name of Andrew McMaster to board a Virgin Atlantic flight from Heathrow to New York, Southwark Crown Court was told.
He entered the US illegally then used his own passport to return to the UK.
Lennon had previously been refused entry to the US and used a friend's passport to travel to the country in September.
He used a self check-in kiosk to board the flight at Heathrow and was allowed through when the document was checked in the bag-drop area.
But when Lennon arrived at New York's JFK Airport, customs officials took his fingerprints and realised he was not travelling on his own passport.
Lennon was asked to attend a second interview but managed to leave the airport, entering the US illegally.
Previous convictions
He stayed one night and travelled back to the UK the following day using his own legitimate passport, which bears the name of Paul Harris.
Judge Alistair McCreath told him: "I am going to sentence you under the name of Stephen Lennon although I suspect that is not actually your true name, in the sense that it is not the name that appears on your passport.
"What I have to deal with you for is clear enough. You knew perfectly well that you were not welcome in the United States.
"You knew that because you tried before and you had not got in, and you knew the reason for that - because, rightly or wrongly, the US authorities do not welcome people in their country who have convictions of the kind that you have.
"With that full knowledge, you equipped yourself with a passport. I am told that it was given you by way of a loan from your friend Andrew McMaster, to which you bore, I am told, some resemblance."
The judge added: "What you did went absolutely to the heart of the immigration controls that the United States are entitled to have.
"It's not in any sense trivial."
In mitigation, Lennon's barrister Giles Cockings told the court the passport was not stolen and his client had only used it for a day.
Lennon was jailed for assault in 2005 and also has convictions for drugs offences and public order offences, the court heard.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-20935502The leader of the English Defence League has been jailed for 10 months for using someone else's passport to travel to the USA.
Stephen Lennon, 30, from Luton, admitted possession of a false identity document with improper intention.
Lennon used a passport in the name of Andrew McMaster to board a Virgin Atlantic flight from Heathrow to New York, Southwark Crown Court was told.
He entered the US illegally then used his own passport to return to the UK.
Lennon had previously been refused entry to the US and used a friend's passport to travel to the country in September.
He used a self check-in kiosk to board the flight at Heathrow and was allowed through when the document was checked in the bag-drop area.
But when Lennon arrived at New York's JFK Airport, customs officials took his fingerprints and realised he was not travelling on his own passport.
Lennon was asked to attend a second interview but managed to leave the airport, entering the US illegally.
Previous convictions
He stayed one night and travelled back to the UK the following day using his own legitimate passport, which bears the name of Paul Harris.
Judge Alistair McCreath told him: "I am going to sentence you under the name of Stephen Lennon although I suspect that is not actually your true name, in the sense that it is not the name that appears on your passport.
"What I have to deal with you for is clear enough. You knew perfectly well that you were not welcome in the United States.
"You knew that because you tried before and you had not got in, and you knew the reason for that - because, rightly or wrongly, the US authorities do not welcome people in their country who have convictions of the kind that you have.
"With that full knowledge, you equipped yourself with a passport. I am told that it was given you by way of a loan from your friend Andrew McMaster, to which you bore, I am told, some resemblance."
The judge added: "What you did went absolutely to the heart of the immigration controls that the United States are entitled to have.
"It's not in any sense trivial."
In mitigation, Lennon's barrister Giles Cockings told the court the passport was not stolen and his client had only used it for a day.
Lennon was jailed for assault in 2005 and also has convictions for drugs offences and public order offences, the court heard.
And nice to see US airport security doing their job properly
BBC said:
He entered the US illegally then used his own passport to return to the UK.
Lennon had previously been refused entry to the US and used a friend's passport to travel to the country in September.
He used a self check-in kiosk to board the flight at Heathrow and was allowed through when the document was checked in the bag-drop area.
But when Lennon arrived at New York's JFK Airport, customs officials took his fingerprints and realised he was not travelling on his own passport.
Lennon was asked to attend a second interview but managed to leave the airport, entering the US illegally.
Previous convictions
He stayed one night and travelled back to the UK the following day using his own legitimate passport, which bears the name of Paul Harris.
Lennon had previously been refused entry to the US and used a friend's passport to travel to the country in September.
He used a self check-in kiosk to board the flight at Heathrow and was allowed through when the document was checked in the bag-drop area.
But when Lennon arrived at New York's JFK Airport, customs officials took his fingerprints and realised he was not travelling on his own passport.
Lennon was asked to attend a second interview but managed to leave the airport, entering the US illegally.
Previous convictions
He stayed one night and travelled back to the UK the following day using his own legitimate passport, which bears the name of Paul Harris.
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