Climate change - the POLITICAL debate.

Climate change - the POLITICAL debate.

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Jasandjules

69,787 posts

228 months

Wednesday 7th March 2012
quotequote all
Devil2575 said:
You don't accept evidence from computer models because it is based on assumptions made by the people who wrote the models. Ok.
Output from a computer simulation is not evidence.


turbobloke

103,631 posts

259 months

Wednesday 7th March 2012
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Devil2575 said:
You don't accept evidence from computer models because it is based on assumptions made by the people who wrote the models. Ok.
Output from a computer simulation is not evidence.
Output from the current crop of climate models is pure gigo.

Apache

39,731 posts

283 months

Wednesday 7th March 2012
quotequote all
the numbers seem to suggest the theory is implausible too

"CO2 accounts for 0.04% of atmospheric gases, and anthropogenic CO2, according to the IPCC is a fraction of that amount (about 4% of the 0.04%). Please explain how such a rare gas acts as a blanket, unless it is completely threadbare."

http://realplanet.eu/backrad.htm

dickymint

24,019 posts

257 months

Wednesday 7th March 2012
quotequote all
Devil2575 said:
Blib said:
Devil.

There is nothing nobler for a politician, of whatever persuasion, to believe that he or she is actually saving the planet for his or her fellow citizens and generations to come.

It is far harder to say that this is a fool's errand.

It really does not need to be any more complicated than that.
I understand what you are saying but I still think that there would at the very least be some noisy back benchers shouting about this. However there is very little noise at all.
What's this then.......................

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9061997/1...

PS. For the record do you believe that "the globe" is warming due to "mans" C02 emissions? If so how?


Le TVR

3,092 posts

250 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Devil2575 said:
You don't accept evidence from computer models because it is based on assumptions made by the people who wrote the models. Ok.
Output from a computer simulation is not evidence.
Personal experience of pure scientific research as opposed to industrial research was always based on the following ethics:
ANO would state or publish a theory.
Along with the theory would be the details of the experiments and observations performed, the data used or obtained and the results.
They would then invite criticism or corroboration from fellow scientists.

What is different with the MMGW theory is:
- No you can't see the data we used
- Here is the theory
- We dont need you to criticise or corroborate as the science is settled

Now when they have used the theory to create the models you would assume that future observations would corroborate the theory.

As it starts falling apart now, I have little sympathy.

rovermorris999

5,192 posts

188 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
Le TVR said:
Personal experience of pure scientific research as opposed to industrial research was always based on the following ethics:
ANO would state or publish a theory.
Along with the theory would be the details of the experiments and observations performed, the data used or obtained and the results.
They would then invite criticism or corroboration from fellow scientists.

What is different with the MMGW theory is:
- No you can't see the data we used
- Here is the theory
- We dont need you to criticise or corroborate as the science is settled

Now when they have used the theory to create the models you would assume that future observations would corroborate the theory.

As it starts falling apart now, I have little sympathy.
This says it all. It makes you wonder what they have to hide? smile

Blib

43,722 posts

196 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
Entire nation of Kiribati to be relocated over rising sea level threat

Telegraph Article said:
In what could be the world's first climate-induced migration of modern times, Anote Tong, the Kiribati president, said he was in talks with Fiji's military government to buy up to 5,000 acres of freehold land on which his countrymen could be housed.
Some of Kiribati's 32 pancake-flat coral atolls, which straddle the equator over 1,350,000 square miles of ocean, are already disappearing beneath the waves.
Most of its 113,000 people are crammed on to Tarawa, the administrative centre, a chain of islets which curve in a horseshoe shape around a lagoon.
"This is the last resort, there's no way out of this one," Mr Tong said.
"Our people will have to move as the tides have reached our homes and villages."
Mr Tong said the plan would be to send a trickle of skilled workers first, so they could merge more easily with the Fijian population and make a positive contribution to that country's economy.
"We don't want 100,000 people from Kiribati coming to Fiji in one go," he told the state-run Fiji One television channel.
"They need to find employment, not as refugees but as immigrant people with skills to offer, people who have a place in the community, people who will not be seen as second-class citizens.
"What we need is the international community to come up with an urgent funding package to deal with that ambition, and the needs of countries like Kiribati."
The land Kiribati wants to buy is understood to be on Vanua Levu, Fiji's second largest island.
Mr Tong's proposal is the latest in an increasingly desperate search for solutions.
Last year he suggested the possibility of constructing man-made islands like oil rigs for people to live on.
His government has launched an Education for Migration programme, aimed at upskilling its population to make them more attractive as migrants.
Kiribati youngsters study for degrees at the University of the South Pacific, which is based in the Fijian capital of Suva and jointly owned by 12 Pacific island countries.
Dr Alumita Durulato, a lecturer in international affairs at the university, said: "They are already preparing quite well.
"They have educated their youth to be able to survive in the new lands that they want to go to.
"They are going to leave behind their culture, their way of life and lifestyle, which is a little bit different from ours in Fiji."
Tarawa lies 1,400 miles from Suva and some i-Kiribati, as the islanders are known, hold concerns about whether their culture would survive after the population moves, especially if those who leave first are mainly the young.
A member of the Commonwealth, Kiribati was known as the Gilbert islands until independence from Britain in 1979.
The islands were first named after Thomas Gilbert, a British naval captain who navigated the archipelago in 1788, Kiribati being the local pronunciation of "Gilbert".
The total land area is 313 square miles and none of the coral atolls rises more than a few feet above sea level.
Link

ETA:

Though...
One of the comments said:
This report is absolute rubbish. I have been meeting with President Tong over the last year regarding this land purchase. It is basically for growing crops and cattle and chicken farming.
Maybe in the future some Kiribati may relocate to Fiji

The country is unable to meet its food needs.
smile

Edited by Blib on Thursday 8th March 09:42

turbobloke

103,631 posts

259 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
Most suitable for the politics thread as this is a political matter, the move looks necessary and no doubt a claim for compo will follow which will be more than a tenner to tip the removals van.

Over in the science thread there are links to data showing the currently falling global mean sea level, only four years but there it is, so this is something more likely to be part of the local changes that net out to the global figure and with no causal link to humans anywhere in sight.

There are also links in the science threads to the mechanism as to how such islands remain just above sea level over tens of thusands of years (overall) the political side arises due to short-term changes like this which are real and require action but not because of non-existent manmadeup warming.

It's a perfect recipe for ignorant politicians to abuse.

dickymint

24,019 posts

257 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
^^^ beaten to it. Just about to paste that comment. Unfortunately I can see the BBC making a meal out of this.

stevejh

799 posts

203 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
I did a quick search on Fiji sea levels and found this website.

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/carvingout/issues/sealeve...

The table on this page seems to show that some South Pacific islands are seeing sea levels rising and some are seeing levels falling. Logically that must mean that in some cases it is the land that is sinking or, I suppose, that some islands are still rising out of the sea. Without knowing what the land is doing surely it is simplistic to claim that it's all down to sea level rise which must be due to climate change. If anyone has some more comprehensive figures it would be useful.

turbobloke

103,631 posts

259 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
stevejh said:
The table on this page seems to show that some South Pacific islands are seeing sea levels rising and some are seeing levels falling.
It's the same with glaciers in that the stories only focus on changes which operate in one direction and so coincidentally match up with the climate scam. Nearby the opposite is happening but it goes largely unreported.

It's all transparently bogus, not in the sense of something needing to be done for those affected but in terms of the mentioned or assumed cause. Which is all wrong but still sufficient for self-serving ignorant politicians, unquestioning supine media hacks, and of course the faithful who need their glands tweaked every so often, to truly believe in the climate myths.

Apache

39,731 posts

283 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
stevejh said:
I did a quick search on Fiji sea levels and found this website.

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/carvingout/issues/sealeve...

The table on this page seems to show that some South Pacific islands are seeing sea levels rising and some are seeing levels falling. Logically that must mean that in some cases it is the land that is sinking or, I suppose, that some islands are still rising out of the sea. Without knowing what the land is doing surely it is simplistic to claim that it's all down to sea level rise which must be due to climate change. If anyone has some more comprehensive figures it would be useful.
look up convergent and divergent tectonic plates, it's quite revealling and patently obvious

turbobloke

103,631 posts

259 months

turbobloke

103,631 posts

259 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
The High Priests of Global Warming Are Losing It

Click

The Excession

11,669 posts

249 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
Guam said:
turbobloke said:
The High Priests of Global Warming Are Losing It

Click
JD is on a roll these days, after what has been done to him over the years, I suspect much more putting in of the boot smile
Maybe... just maybe.... the truth will out itself.

Loving this commentary, we've seen it so many times here on PH over the last decade

JD said:
What all these tricks have in common is this: they're not arguments; they don't address any of the points we sceptics (or "realists" as we prefer to term ourselves) painstakingly make in article after article, blog after blog; they're simply rhetorical tropes designed to confuse, obfuscate, distract, wear down, bruise, irritate, hurt, clog up the comments section and give the illusion of moral and intellectual victory.
Delingpole for a Nobel Prize? Because let's face it, if Gore got one the idea isn't too far fetched eh?

Jasandjules

69,787 posts

228 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
The Excession said:
Delingpole for a Nobel Prize? Because let's face it, if Gore got one the idea isn't too far fetched eh?
And have Al Gore stripped of his. And then shot.


mybrainhurts

90,809 posts

254 months

Thursday 8th March 2012
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
The Excession said:
Delingpole for a Nobel Prize? Because let's face it, if Gore got one the idea isn't too far fetched eh?
And have Al Gore stripped of his. And then shot.
Twice...smile

Edit....just to be sure, nothing vindictive, you understand?

Jasandjules

69,787 posts

228 months

Friday 9th March 2012
quotequote all
Interestingly just had a report on the BBC which said that streetlights are being turned off "to save money". Then the Council came on and said "it's too expensive to keep the lights on with energy prices and we also save on the carbon tax"...... No mention of Global Warming, it was all about money.... Honesty at last...

rovermorris999

5,192 posts

188 months

Friday 9th March 2012
quotequote all
Jasandjules said:
Interestingly just had a report on the BBC which said that streetlights are being turned off "to save money". Then the Council came on and said "it's too expensive to keep the lights on with energy prices and we also save on the carbon tax"...... No mention of Global Warming, it was all about money.... Honesty at last...
Likewise a report about a new appeal from Oxfam to help in another drought in Africa. Apparently there have been more droughts and of greater intensity in recent years and the cumulative effect of these on the poor there is grim as they have no 'good' years to recover. Not one mention of climate change.

convert

3,747 posts

217 months

Friday 9th March 2012
quotequote all
turbobloke said:
The High Priests of Global Warming Are Losing It

Click
Fantastic piece by JD.

James Delingpole said:
Coming soon - indeed it has already started - is the mother of all backlashes against the AGW alarmism industry. It will happen on lines predicted over a century ago by Gustave Le Bon in his seminal 1895 work, The Crowd.

Le Bon (whose analysis of crowd mentality influenced Freud, Hitler and Mussolini) argued that the secret of demagoguery was to repeat an idea over and over again in order to create a "contagion" which would infect the popular mind and hold the culture in its grip. This is what, until very recently, happened with the global warming religion.

But this contagion can only keep going, Le Bon argues, so long as those spreading it possess "prestige" in the eyes of the mob. Once that "prestige" is lost, the crowd turns brutally against those seers and experts and leaders in whom it once had such faith. Suddenly it sees them for the liars and cheats and manipulators they really are.

This is what is happening now in the great climate debate. Michael "Hockey Stick" Mann's new book is not selling
Even more good news.

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