We need more industry
Discussion
Following decades of negative Government action toward our creative manufacturing industries, the penny has at long last dropped. Question Time on BBC the issue was raised, general panel agreement Yes we do need many more small manufacturing industries that would help out with our National financial and employment problems 
The rot was setting in during the 1970's when the Unions and Government went head to head, we all lost.
Hope that Governments of the future will be more creative encouraging entrepreneurship and manufacturing in the U.K. whilst continuing to attract overseas Companies to set up here.
Living in hope or deluded, maybe both.
The rot was setting in during the 1970's when the Unions and Government went head to head, we all lost.
Hope that Governments of the future will be more creative encouraging entrepreneurship and manufacturing in the U.K. whilst continuing to attract overseas Companies to set up here.
Living in hope or deluded, maybe both.
yep we can all go back into heavy manufacturing and industry if we all agree to take a massive pay cut
of course if we did that, tax revenues would increase, unemployment would come down, government could get far far smaller, and suddenly those people earning less would find their money went much much further.
The pain to get there would be very very hard though.
of course if we did that, tax revenues would increase, unemployment would come down, government could get far far smaller, and suddenly those people earning less would find their money went much much further.
The pain to get there would be very very hard though.
How do you make mass-produced stuff competitively in the global market? Either force wages to be low to keep costs and hence price low or implement some protectionism to force competitor products up in price (only works in the home market).
Which would you like?
The UK are still good at innovative products and high value products, but we're (currently) not suitable for cheap mass-produced products. Give it a few decades and perhaps China will experience wage-inflation and so become less competitive, allowing the UK to compete again. Of course, then production will move to the next cheap emerging economy (Brazil? Somewhere in Africa?) instead.
As we have to start using more difficult to extract fossil fuels, UK Coal might become financially viable again so the mining industry may be reborn (that'll annoy the greenies!).
Which would you like?
The UK are still good at innovative products and high value products, but we're (currently) not suitable for cheap mass-produced products. Give it a few decades and perhaps China will experience wage-inflation and so become less competitive, allowing the UK to compete again. Of course, then production will move to the next cheap emerging economy (Brazil? Somewhere in Africa?) instead.
As we have to start using more difficult to extract fossil fuels, UK Coal might become financially viable again so the mining industry may be reborn (that'll annoy the greenies!).
Uhura fighter said:
What could we build that would put people into work?
Hi tech stuff, my brother works in that field and they supply NASA with stuff for satellites etc as no-one else in the world makes them to the same standard.I am sure the new space telescope that has just gone up has his work stuck on the end to 'see' the images.
we should re-invent ourselves as the service and high tech go to country.
i know we have a history of heavy industry, but i suspect that if you gave a lathe operator over here a very complex thing to do he would produce it for you.
There are some very innovative companies in the UK, Ipeco in Southend are one such, they produce parts for the euro fighter amongst others, and got more work when they managed to produce a part that the Italians, French and Germans couldn't. Their site is very impressive, and they get into all sorts of markets, the latest being private jet outfitting.
pugwash4x4 said:
yep we can all go back into heavy manufacturing and industry if we all agree to take a massive pay cut
Funny but i don’t see the Germans taking massive pay cuts. They have one of the strongest economies in Europe and is in the main manufacturing based. The days of relying on consumer/services lead economy are numbered I feel.
jesta1865 said:
we should re-invent ourselves as the service and high tech go to country.
We already are IMO. Those that lament the loss of the "traditional" industries usually seem to be more intent on drawing class boundaries than looking at what we're good at now and what we can be good at in the future.Vimto156 said:
pugwash4x4 said:
yep we can all go back into heavy manufacturing and industry if we all agree to take a massive pay cut
Funny but i don’t see the Germans taking massive pay cuts. They have one of the strongest economies in Europe and is in the main manufacturing based. The days of relying on consumer/services lead economy are numbered I feel.
Perhaps the German unions weren't quite so militant in their opposition to changing working practices. Perhaps the German governments were more inclined to support their heavy industries. Perhaps the German people were more inclined to buy German products (as they were actually of decent quality...).
ewenm said:
jesta1865 said:
we should re-invent ourselves as the service and high tech go to country.
We already are IMO. "Although nearly 800 manufacturing jobs were lost, Dyson states that the cost savings from transferring production to Malaysia enabled investment in R&D at Malmesbury head office, and that the company employs more people in the UK than before the move to Malaysia"
It does support your view.
IMHO, be careful what you wish for, as far as government action.
Government and the public sector may be good for a great many things but are not good at dynamic, entrepreneurial activity. Asking them to encourage individuals, businesses, industries and regions is asking for waste and beaureaucracy.
The web of 'business support' quangos has rarely produced major success, whilst buring through large sums of money better spent on the basics - transport, education, healthcare, police - which are pre-requisite for economic success.
Furthermore, anyone who has read the expensive, regional business newspapers and. glossy mags produced by said network cannot fail to notice the regularity with which the same fat faces keep turning up in the pages; the same piggies at the same trough. As with benefits, a bureaucratic and insular system of business grants tends to create inequality - the shouty get, whilst needy or deserving businesses don't ask, or can't find the tiome to fill in forms and toady - and, at worst engenders dependancy in certain enterprises and industries.
Keep things simple, get the basics right and try to keep taxes and red tape at a sensible minumum (i.e. this stance does not advocate slave labour) and stay away from the hackneyed old unions vs. Thatcherism arguments and we might see gradual progress.
Government and the public sector may be good for a great many things but are not good at dynamic, entrepreneurial activity. Asking them to encourage individuals, businesses, industries and regions is asking for waste and beaureaucracy.
The web of 'business support' quangos has rarely produced major success, whilst buring through large sums of money better spent on the basics - transport, education, healthcare, police - which are pre-requisite for economic success.
Furthermore, anyone who has read the expensive, regional business newspapers and. glossy mags produced by said network cannot fail to notice the regularity with which the same fat faces keep turning up in the pages; the same piggies at the same trough. As with benefits, a bureaucratic and insular system of business grants tends to create inequality - the shouty get, whilst needy or deserving businesses don't ask, or can't find the tiome to fill in forms and toady - and, at worst engenders dependancy in certain enterprises and industries.
Keep things simple, get the basics right and try to keep taxes and red tape at a sensible minumum (i.e. this stance does not advocate slave labour) and stay away from the hackneyed old unions vs. Thatcherism arguments and we might see gradual progress.
ewenm said:
Perhaps the German unions weren't quite so militant in their opposition to changing working practices. Perhaps the German governments were more inclined to support their heavy industries. Perhaps the German people were more inclined to buy German products (as they were actually of decent quality...).
Unions are strong in Germany (IG Metal to name but one and probably representing 95% of all workforces) but they are ready to talk.ie: we have a plant in Germany, in it there are 3 to 4000 employees depending on workload. 2 years ago, our company said: "you either lower cost in that factory or the new production line will be open in another country". IG Metal went back to the workers who accepted pay cut/freeze and 2 years later everything's back as normal (salaries on the rise and unlocked) and 600 new jobs were created. The process was so refreshing to see happening and it only took 1 month to implement. No strike, no aggro.
The other advantage of the German industry is that they can maintain high prices because they actually manufacture quality/high end equipment. A lot of German production tools are installed in Far East factories because they are durable and trouble free.
IMO this is what UK (and EU) manufacturing needs to set its sight on and compete with.
Digga said:
IMHO, be careful what you wish for, as far as government action.
Government and the public sector may be good for a great many things but are not good at dynamic, entrepreneurial activity. Asking them to encourage individuals, businesses, industries and regions is asking for waste and beaureaucracy.
The web of 'business support' quangos has rarely produced major success, whilst buring through large sums of money better spent on the basics - transport, education, healthcare, police - which are pre-requisite for economic success.
Furthermore, anyone who has read the expensive, regional business newspapers and. glossy mags produced by said network cannot fail to notice the regularity with which the same fat faces keep turning up in the pages; the same piggies at the same trough. As with benefits, a bureaucratic and insular system of business grants tends to create inequality - the shouty get, whilst needy or deserving businesses don't ask, or can't find the tiome to fill in forms and toady - and, at worst engenders dependancy in certain enterprises and industries.
Keep things simple, get the basics right and try to keep taxes and red tape at a sensible minumum (i.e. this stance does not advocate slave labour) and stay away from the hackneyed old unions vs. Thatcherism arguments and we might see gradual progress.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^Government and the public sector may be good for a great many things but are not good at dynamic, entrepreneurial activity. Asking them to encourage individuals, businesses, industries and regions is asking for waste and beaureaucracy.
The web of 'business support' quangos has rarely produced major success, whilst buring through large sums of money better spent on the basics - transport, education, healthcare, police - which are pre-requisite for economic success.
Furthermore, anyone who has read the expensive, regional business newspapers and. glossy mags produced by said network cannot fail to notice the regularity with which the same fat faces keep turning up in the pages; the same piggies at the same trough. As with benefits, a bureaucratic and insular system of business grants tends to create inequality - the shouty get, whilst needy or deserving businesses don't ask, or can't find the tiome to fill in forms and toady - and, at worst engenders dependancy in certain enterprises and industries.
Keep things simple, get the basics right and try to keep taxes and red tape at a sensible minumum (i.e. this stance does not advocate slave labour) and stay away from the hackneyed old unions vs. Thatcherism arguments and we might see gradual progress.
These are wise words. Most of the 'Business Advisors' in Local Government read a textbook about business once, I know someone who has been taken on by a LA to do a specific project after years of being self employed, and she cannot believe what she has found attitude wise.
Also, we are heading for a huge change in technology, with home based micro manufacturing and replicator machines, so much of the stuff consumers buy could be made at home.
The mental 'eco warrior' stuff with energy prices soaring has also worked against us, we need less, not more Government interference, as well as Engineering and Science seen as important, the scary thing is that few teachers understand this, having been brought through a system that has them in Education from the age of 4 or 5.
I would insist on a 5 year life experience break before a teacher could start training. (20 for MP's!)
Trouble is, the way goverment and public sector bodies work, they are simply not dynamic enough to predict industry trends and react to developments.
A prime example is our LA who, through various bungled property deals have ended up with a new leisure centre which gives a fraction of the services that the old (admittedly dilapidated) centre, the site of which has been razed to the ground and is nowderelict open parking. Ditto this for the Police headquarters. Why? because they were simply too late to grab the property bubble and, by the time they'd organised themselves, no developers were forthcoming...
I reiterate that the PS is very good at running routine, ongoing services and operations - just do not ask it to be dynamic or entrepreneurial.
A prime example is our LA who, through various bungled property deals have ended up with a new leisure centre which gives a fraction of the services that the old (admittedly dilapidated) centre, the site of which has been razed to the ground and is now
I reiterate that the PS is very good at running routine, ongoing services and operations - just do not ask it to be dynamic or entrepreneurial.
Tsippy said:
I've mentioned it before, but my MP believes that the loss of heavy industry will be replaced by new Green industries.... woohoo.....
Which are only even vaguely sensible financially if supported by big government grants... which weren't available to other actual useful industries. Imbeciles.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff