Meanwhile, In Syria

[MX7]

Mermaid said:

Seriously, do you believe most Syrians want to overthrow Assad? Or do most support Assad?

It's very difficult to tell. In a country with no democracy or freedom, how do you measure public opinion?

I do think it's human instinct to want to live in something fairly democratic, and when you look at the ranking Syria receives from Freedom House and Reporters without Borders, it's plain to see that there is virtually no civil or political freedom. Why wouldn't the people want a fair election?

I think it's also worth considering the environment required to create a situation where you have to oppress your people to that level just to maintain power.

[MX7]

chim said:

Have you ever actually heard of planning, political planning is a very advanced science, no predicting the future called for.. In fact the US and every other major power has teams of these planners that advise them on the probable outcomes of almost every major political move. They then base there moves on the likly outcomes advised by the planners.

You just keep thinkingthat they just vote with thier hearts though.

Fascinating.

[Mermaid]

MX7 said:

Mermaid said:

Seriously, do you believe most Syrians want to overthrow Assad? Or do most support Assad?

It's very difficult to tell. In a country with no democracy or freedom, how do you measure public opinion?

I do think it's human instinct to want to live in something fairly democratic, and when you look at the ranking Syria receives from Freedom House and Reporters without Borders, it's plain to see that there is virtually no civil or political freedom. Why wouldn't the people want a fair election?

I think it's also worth considering the environment required to create a situation where you have to oppress your people to that level just to maintain power.

You raise good points, and this is how we all see it.

But then I think of China and what our PM said 'We are different countries, we have different histories, different stages of development."

How do you think the West would deal with China, assuming the same sort of stuff was happening as in Syria?

IMO, there are double standards and a religion of convenience that a very strong & reformed UN should cope with.

[bobbylondonuk]

MX7 said:

Mermaid said:

Seriously, do you believe most Syrians want to overthrow Assad? Or do most support Assad?

It's very difficult to tell. In a country with no democracy or freedom, how do you measure public opinion?

I do think it's human instinct to want to live in something fairly democratic, and when you look at the ranking Syria receives from Freedom House and Reporters without Borders, it's plain to see that there is virtually no civil or political freedom. Why wouldn't the people want a fair election?

I think it's also worth considering the environment required to create a situation where you have to oppress your people to that level just to maintain power.

How does your point stand when looked at from the rest of syria who do support Assad and think that the current system is the best compromise for a country that is deeply divided and unstable?

[MX7]

Mermaid said:

You raise good points, and this is how we all see it.

But then I think of China and what our PM said 'We are different countries, we have different histories, different stages of development."

How do you think the West would deal with China, assuming the same sort of stuff was happening as in Syria?

IMO, there are double standards and a religion of convenience that a very strong & reformed UN should cope with.

I've got no idea what would happen if China had a revolution, but if there were reports of the military attacking their own people, I would guess that the first step would be a UN resolution calling for a cessation. That's the most basic ground work that's required in any situation of conflict. If someone is poking you with a stick the first thing to do is ask them to stop. You might feel that your request will be ignored, but you know it's the standard opening move.

What double standards are you talking about in particular? There are double standards in everything, but that doesn't mean that every situation is the same, and that a resolution for one sitution is neccessarily the right one for another.

By not signing this request for an end to the violence, we are condining Assad. Why would anyone, who understood what the resolution was, not want to ask him to stop?

[MX7]

bobbylondonuk said:

How does your point stand when looked at from the rest of syria who do support Assad and think that the current system is the best compromise for a country that is deeply divided and unstable?

What point? I haven't really made a point. All I've said that in an insular nation like Syria it can be difficult to gauge opinion.

Having said that, do you look at any nation without some varation of democracy and think "Well, that's a good idea"?

[johnnybegood]

The indian goverment sent in the army against the sikhs in 1984 no UN intervention then infact they still are rounding up sikhs and torturing and killing them strange how this is not reported also happens in China, Tibet, Kashmir, and whole host of other african countries no UN there is there?

[baz1985]

The endgame is for Syria to determine. As in most politically driven conflict, innocent human beings sacrifice the most, and have the least to gain by any insurrection. The developed world should focus on what it can achieve with humanitarian relief, for example, in drought afflicted areas where thousands could be given a better future without any need to advocate live democracy projects.

[Tartan Pixie]

After reading a few pages of this thread I googled 'pro assad' to see what turned up. This article from the Grauniad was quite enlightening (55% of Syrians support Assad, poll commissioned by the Qatar Foundation who afaik are not supporters of the regime): http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/1....

I don't pretend to know the political ins and outs but am pretty sure the west will want to see a democratic government emerge while the east will want to see an autocratic government. Any UN resolution will likely be an exercise in the major powers bickering over their national interests, as such the needs of the Syrian people will be little more than pretext.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

[Mermaid]

baz1985 said:

The endgame is for Syria to determine. As in most politically driven conflict, innocent human beings sacrifice the most, and have the least to gain by any insurrection. The developed world should focus on what it can achieve with humanitarian relief, for example, in drought afflicted areas where thousands could be given a better future without any need to advocate live democracy projects.

Well said

As colonialists, the British (& the French, Germans, Italians, the Spanish, the Portuguese) killed thousands of the local inhabitants who strove for independence from a foreign power. Not nice, but it happens and will carry on happening.

Local problem, local solution.

[bobbylondonuk]

MX7 said:

Having said that, do you look at any nation without some varation of democracy and think "Well, that's a good idea"?

If a nation far away has an established system of government that the majority of the educated and middle income classes of population think is reasonably acceptable....then YES, I think that it might be a good idea for THEM. There will always be a minority in every country that thinks their system of government is rotten. We cant be running around after all of that.

In the case of Syria....I gather...from what I can see, that the unrest is within a few neighbourhoods of the Homs province and there is live ammunition coming from there against the govt forces as well. All the people speaking on news channels from within that area seem to have a British/French accent to their english.
Is it a case of seperatists gathering up and using the western pro democracy support idea to further their own cause?
Is it a case of western anti Iran agenda being pushed on the pretext of syrian humanitarian cause?
If something like that happened in any EU country...would the government not go in and stamp it down before it spreads like a virus to all other parts?

Many questions to answer....our experiences of other conflicts should serve as a filter in this case and we should ask more questions not less!

[MX7]

Tartan Pixie said:

After reading a few pages of this thread I googled 'pro assad' to see what turned up. This article from the Grauniad was quite enlightening (55% of Syrians support Assad, poll commissioned by the Qatar Foundation who afaik are not supporters of the regime): http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/jan/1....

I don't pretend to know the political ins and outs but am pretty sure the west will want to see a democratic government emerge while the east will want to see an autocratic government. Any UN resolution will likely be an exercise in the major powers bickering over their national interests, as such the needs of the Syrian people will be little more than pretext.

Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

Interesting poll. I did a search and came up with this.

Syria and the 'Assad poll'.

I'm not one for writing polls off, or for thinking that they are definitive, but the opinion of 97 internet users in a country without a free internet shouldn't count for too much in my opinion.

As I said, it's very difficult to get any real gauge.

[Mermaid]

bobbylondonuk said:

In the case of Syria....I gather...from what I can see, that the unrest is within a few neighbourhoods of the Homs province and there is live ammunition coming from there against the govt forces as well. All the people speaking on news channels from within that area seem to have a British/French accent to their english.
Is it a case of seperatists gathering up and using the western pro democracy support idea to further their own cause?
Is it a case of western anti Iran agenda being pushed on the pretext of syrian humanitarian cause?

Exactly. The "rebels" are not exactly Mother Teresa's. They are armed.

A guy with a gun in his hand, seen as a threat in this country, will get his head blown off very quickly. The Government has a responsibility to the majority.

And it is naive to believe that the separatists do not have funding/arms support from the West. How many covert operations are on-going right now?

[Blib]

bobbylondonuk said:

If something like that happened in any EU country...would the government not go in and stamp it down before it spreads like a virus to all other parts?

I can't think of an EU government that would be willing to shell its population with heavy artillery.

[bobbylondonuk]

Just heard on Sky....GCC have pulled out their diplomats and expelled Syrian diplomats. this is turning into more of an Anti Iran agenda! The Yanks and Brits know that they cannot fight against the Ruskies and Chinks in a public forum. Looks like they have called in the debt for supporting the GCC for so many years! Of course...its all about the loss of life in Syria!

[bobbylondonuk]

Blib said:

bobbylondonuk said:

If something like that happened in any EU country...would the government not go in and stamp it down before it spreads like a virus to all other parts?

I can't think of an EU government that would be willing to shell its population with heavy artillery.

I agree...but we would do something in our own style of going in and getting them. That is what I meant. The other countries are not as morally righteous as us.

[Tartan Pixie]

MX7 said:

Interesting poll. I did a search and came up with this.

Syria and the 'Assad poll'.

I'm not one for writing polls off, or for thinking that they are definitive, but the opinion of 97 internet users in a country without a free internet shouldn't count for too much in my opinion.

As I said, it's very difficult to get any real gauge.

Ha ha, thanks for that, yet another reminder of how little we can trust the media, though my inner cynic does wonder who this random blogger is, what axe they have to grind and where they got their info.

I'll just go back to wishing the Syrian people the best in a sad situation, regardless of who's messing up their country.

[Mojocvh]

bobbylondonuk said:

Just heard on Sky....GCC have pulled out their diplomats and expelled Syrian diplomats. this is turning into more of an Anti Iran agenda! The Yanks and Brits know that they cannot fight against the Ruskies and Chinks in a public forum. Looks like they have called in the debt for supporting the GCC for so many years! Of course...its all about the loss of life in Syria!

You mean the http://www.gcc-uk.org/ ?

[Mermaid]

Mojocvh said:

You mean the http://www.gcc-uk.org/ ?

He means these rich boys.

http://www.gcc-sg.org/eng/

[chim]

Syria, like many/most middle east countries is highly divided, the hatred amongst these factions runs very deep. It is no coincidence that they are all mostly ruled by strong arm regimes of one sort or other. Without these power players the factions would be at constant war. Democracy does not work, the sooner we in the west wake up to this fact the better. Just look at Iraq now. They are effectively on a knife edge with factions constantly fighting day in day out. if there is a guy at the top with a ruthless streak and big stick they are effectively kept in line, without it these countries would/do have choas.

IMHO it is high time we in the west stopped trying to impose our values on others, it's a bit like having the Mormons chaping your door each day when you are a confirmed atheist. Completly pointless and fking annoying.

Edited by chim on Tuesday 7th February 20:51