Meanwhile, In Syria

[QuantumTokoloshi]

A new twist, seems China may be helping to sort out the Syrian mess.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-24/chinese-m...

[PRTVR]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Northern Munkee said:

Trevatanus said:

SO, the Green Party are launching a legal challenge over the Prime Ministers decision for a drone strike.
FFS.. What is wrong with the people?
What ever you think of "call me Dave", he was acting in the countries interests, and trying to keep the UK and it's interests safe, then the Green Party decide to do this?

I think he needs to go all "Nathan Jessep" on her, and quote this in Parliament! :
"You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties you want me on that wall, you need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you, " and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to."

http://www.itv.com/news/2015-09-24/david-cameron-f...

Frightening prospect the so called Greens are. It's just cover for hard left politics.

For instance this grinning commie, and the scary prospect of everyone being made to give and receive an act of "solidarity" at the end of the interview 6min 30secs. http://youtu.be/VB0_njAf32A
Which I assume is code for dictats from "The Boss".

I am no green party fan, but testing whether it was legal to assassinate UK citizens in Syria simply because Mr Cameron says they were a danger, is a good thing.

If only we had this when Mr Blair and his 45 minute dodgy dossier was being pushed down our throats.

Mr Cameron, while prime minister should have to answer either, to the electorate or the judiciary for actions he takes unilaterally which involves extra judicial killing of UK citizens.

I don't really think it matters that that they were UK citizens, they had taken up arms for a foreign force that had intent to do harm to people from the UK, a passport should not matter, my thought is that the rules were written when times were different, things have changed, who would have thought hundreds of UK citizens would go abroad to fight for a foreign force that had intent of doing harm to us?

[scherzkeks]

PRTVR said:

my thought is that the rules were written when times were different, things have changed,

Ah, yes. The words that have helped pave the way to fascism since before the term was even invented.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

PRTVR said:

I don't really think it matters that that they were UK citizens, they had taken up arms for a foreign force that had intent to do harm to people from the UK, a passport should not matter, my thought is that the rules were written when times were different, things have changed, who would have thought hundreds of UK citizens would go abroad to fight for a foreign force that had intent of doing harm to us?

it does matter hugely, when a prime minister can order the extra judicial killing of UK citizens, simply because he says they are a threat, without proper oversight, that is a very slippery slope.

I brought up the point of the Alexander Litvinenko assassination, seems someone in the Russian government thought he was a threat. We do not want the same situation in the UK.

[PRTVR]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

PRTVR said:

I don't really think it matters that that they were UK citizens, they had taken up arms for a foreign force that had intent to do harm to people from the UK, a passport should not matter, my thought is that the rules were written when times were different, things have changed, who would have thought hundreds of UK citizens would go abroad to fight for a foreign force that had intent of doing harm to us?

it does matter hugely, when a prime minister can order the extra judicial killing of UK citizens, simply because he says they are a threat, without proper oversight, that is a very slippery slope.

I brought up the point of the Alexander Litvinenko assassination, seems someone in the Russian government thought he was a threat. We do not want the same situation in the UK.

The link you made is weak, we are talking about people in a war zone,that we the British are bombing every day of the week, this strike was only one of many, litvinenko was in London, I know its bad there but it isn't a war zone.
What would your reaction have been if the information had been passed to the Americans to carry out the strike?

[Transmitter Man]

Quantum, we have a 'possible' problem.

http://www.rbc.ua/rus/news/dzhemilev-krym-sirii-pr...

Basic translation; 10 dead Russian soldiers killed in Syria arrive back in Crimea.

Who was it on this thread that thought that now Pukin has boots on the ground Syria would be a walkover, not you Quantum, surely.

I cannot even be arsed to read back.

Phil

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Transmitter Man said:

Quantum, we have a 'possible' problem.

http://www.rbc.ua/rus/news/dzhemilev-krym-sirii-pr...

Basic translation; 10 dead Russian soldiers killed in Syria arrive back in Crimea.

Who was it on this thread that thought that now Pukin has boots on the ground Syria would be a walkover, not you Quantum, surely.

I cannot even be arsed to read back.

Phil

WHAT ! Casualties in a 5 year long war, well I never, have you told the newspapers about that?

Be interesting to see the ISIS casualties taken in the recent bombing campaigns.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

I pointed out the dangers of supplying the "good guy" crazies with weapons and training.

US trained and armed "good guy" crazies surrender weapons to Al Qaeda. The pervious week, the "capture" of TOW missiles by the crazy crazies.

A foreign policy win.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-26/latest-em...

[TLandCruiser]

Well China is sending military support to Syria too,

http://english.pravda.ru/news/world/25-09-2015/132...

Not surprising considering they were building Route 66 in Afghanistan and had a small military force there too, which a lot of people are not aware about.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Sanity is beginning to prevail.

You do wonder how it is, that the sensible statesman in this mess, is the Oligarch, power hungry, dictator, ex cold war warrior, mad man, homo erotic photo opportunity favourite etc.

What does that make our own politicians? At best, wholly incompetent (Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and now Yemen) at worst... Who knows.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleea...

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-27/western-p...


Syria is now becoming a games theorist heaven.

Russia and now China militarily involved, France and UK, Iraq showing interest in Russian help, Iran becoming much more assertive, Turkish Kurdish maneuvers for internal political power, Hezbollah, Al Qaeda, Saudi, Qatar, USA, FSA and various other Anti-Assad groups, ISIS and finally Israel.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-09-27/us-ropes-...

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 28th September 12:10

[coetzeeh]

bobbylondonuk said:

Here is my take on this - possible nonsense

Russia & China are too powerful. USA dont scare them without EU backing. EU too afraid to move on anything because of Russian Gas. North Korea has the nukes that Russia & China keep around as head honcho.

Solution - build gas pipeline from ME to EU and cut off Russian hold on EU. Enable US Missile defence program in Eastern Europe to hit Russia & China. Use South Korea & Japan to counter China/North Korea. fk up the Chinese economy to put pressure.

Methodology - Iran & Syria & Iraq are too powerful and too friendly with Russia. First - Get Saddam out of the way and destabilise the region - by using USA/UK. Second - Get Assad out of the way by using AQ,ISIS funded by ME gas exporters. Third get Iran into a corner with sanctions and economic pain and choke their oil revenue. Fourth screw the Chinese economy so that they use all their Forex reserves to stabilise their domestic economy and lose their economic power that gets them support from Africa & Asia.


Current situation - Russia waited till the world agreed ISIS are the villains. USA/UK/EU/ME sat on their arses and didnt want to get involved. Now Putin decides he wants to play Bruce Willis and nobody can fault him. Mother Russia saves the Syrians, Iraqis, Iranis and fks EU/USA power hold and all the garbage is left for ME to deal with on their doorstep with falling oil and high social welfare costs that is unafordable.


Possible nonsense, but very realistic on a 15-20 yr vision. This game started around mid 2000s when Saddam started throwing his weight around in OPEC meetings.

Cant figure out how China plays this game apart from keeping Pyongyang in check.....



All the humanitarian costs...well humans die and reproduce...its energy and the powerhold that is more important.

You have hit the nail on the head.

Saudi and the Qatari's want to build a oil/gas pipeline through Syria into Europe - they are funding the Islamist opposition to get rid of Assad with the blessing and support from Western Europe and US as it will mean Putin loses his negotiating position. The West/Saudi then put apuppet regime democratic government in power in Syria in the name of democracy

Russia/Putin knows this will weaken their hand and mean much reduced Oil/Gas revenue from Europe and lose their grip on Ukraine.

So the West help Saudi and Qatar build the pipe in return for Russia's demise.

All in the name of democracy of course by the noble West - (as it was in Iraq and Libya)

So the West help Saudi and Qatar build the pipe in return for Russia's demise.

[anonymous-user]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

it does matter hugely, when a prime minister can order the extra judicial killing of UK citizens, simply because he says they are a threat, without proper oversight, that is a very slippery slope.

What difference does it make if it's a UK citizen or a foreigner? Killing foreign ISIS fighters is ok without parliamentary approval but killing British ones isn't? I don't get it. Presumably Operation Flavius was also on this evidently not very slippery slope!

[richie99]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

it does matter hugely, when a prime minister can order the extra judicial killing of UK citizens, simply because he says they are a threat, without proper oversight, that is a very slippery slope.

I brought up the point of the Alexander Litvinenko assassination, seems someone in the Russian government thought he was a threat. We do not want the same situation in the UK.

Who is this 'we'. I think you mean you don't want it. I, however, am very relaxed about the idea of this lunatic not being around to kill me and my family or anyone else's family come to that. World is a better place without the raving psycho.

[Transmitter Man]

Watching Putin's performance at the UN, you can see that the worlds/UN/US/AL impotence at stopping his military expansionism, will inextricably mean he wont stop NOW.

The dismal failure of Obama's entire foreign policy must now be obvious, even to his most blinkered supporters.

CNN got to the point.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/09...

Russia has already sent personnel to Syria. It is allegedly building a military base
while claiming that it is doing all this to fight against ISIS, the evidence suggests the main motivation is to bolster al-Assad, who remains one of Russia's few allies. Ultimately, it seems, Putin is more interested in protecting Russian interests and expanding its influence than protecting the Syrian people.

And Russia had another surprise for the United State, with the announcement of a new intelligence alliance encompassing Iran, Iraq, Syria and Russia. In Lebanon, Hezbollah has reportedly suggested the grouping was part of a new bloc, dubbed "the P4+1 alliance," a clear mocking reference to the P5+1, the U.S.-led group that negotiated a nuclear agreement with Iran.

Putin also blasted U.S. actions in the Middle East as a violation of the U.N. charter (this from a leader who violated international law by annexing parts of Ukraine and sending military personnel into eastern Ukraine) and criticized economic sanctions imposed on Moscow. He also stoked the conspiracy theory fires, saying ISIS "was forged as a tool against 'undesirable secular regimes.' "

Phil

Edited by Transmitter Man on Tuesday 29th September 05:55

Edited by Transmitter Man on Tuesday 29th September 05:58

[amusingduck]

Transmitter Man said:

Ultimately, it seems, Putin is more interested in protecting Russian interests and expanding its influence than protecting the Syrian people.

Which should come as a surprise to absolutely nobody.

Transmitter Man said:

He also stoked the conspiracy theory fires, saying ISIS "was forged as a tool against 'undesirable secular regimes.' "

Well, it's hardly a million miles away is it?

[QuantumTokoloshi]

richie99 said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

it does matter hugely, when a prime minister can order the extra judicial killing of UK citizens, simply because he says they are a threat, without proper oversight, that is a very slippery slope.

I brought up the point of the Alexander Litvinenko assassination, seems someone in the Russian government thought he was a threat. We do not want the same situation in the UK.

Who is this 'we'. I think you mean you don't want it. I, however, am very relaxed about the idea of this lunatic not being around to kill me and my family or anyone else's family come to that. World is a better place without the raving psycho.

A democracy needs proper checks and balances against the abuse of power, I am not disputing these were likely some very nasty individuals, I am concerned about the abuse of power by UK politicians, remember call me Tony?

Cameron knew the aircraft were operating in Syria, perhaps he should have sought permission to bomb well before that, but would have meant actually articulating why he needed it, and possibly scrutiny of the entire policy in Syria. It isn't surprising he didn't want that,as the policy is a confused mess again. Just like Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya.

He did try to get permission to bomb another sovereign country, the fourth in ten years by the UK, but was rebuffed. He would not have been able to make the case, so unilaterally used the national security argument.

I wonder where I have heard that argument before?

[scherzkeks]

We should take a guess at how long it will take until ISIS is significantly pushed back, or nearly eradicated from Syria. It will be quite nice to see the neo-con FP machine with egg on its face yet again.

In other news, its been particularly amusing to watch the US propaganda machine's latest attacks Putin for such offensive things as "slouching in meetings."

[QuantumTokoloshi]

fblm said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

it does matter hugely, when a prime minister can order the extra judicial killing of UK citizens, simply because he says they are a threat, without proper oversight, that is a very slippery slope.

What difference does it make if it's a UK citizen or a foreigner? Killing foreign ISIS fighters is ok without parliamentary approval but killing British ones isn't? I don't get it. Presumably Operation Flavius was also on this evidently not very slippery slope!

Jean charles de Menezes, the Guilford four and the Maguire seven might disagree with you.

[Trevatanus]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

fblm said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

it does matter hugely, when a prime minister can order the extra judicial killing of UK citizens, simply because he says they are a threat, without proper oversight, that is a very slippery slope.

What difference does it make if it's a UK citizen or a foreigner? Killing foreign ISIS fighters is ok without parliamentary approval but killing British ones isn't? I don't get it. Presumably Operation Flavius was also on this evidently not very slippery slope!

Jean charles de Menezes, the Guilford four and the Maguire seven might disagree with you.

Correct me if I am wrong, but "only" JCM died, and that was fairly extraordinary circumstances.

[anonymous-user]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Jean charles de Menezes, the Guilford four and the Maguire seven might disagree with you.

Was there any suggestion the de Menezes killing was ordered by the government? I don't think so, I don't recall them even knowing about it until afterwards, it was a routine surveillence that went bizzarely and horribly wrong. As for the Guildford Four and Maguire Seven they would probably be very surprised to learn they had been killed. Is that all you got?