Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
I know nothing about war tactics etc. Can someone in the know explain something please. The media report ISIS capturing huge parts of Syria/Iraq. I can only think that they have 1000's of men in each one of these strongholds defending it and a lot more involved in the capture of it. I thought ISIS had 20-30k in number. Surely they spread pretty thin-even though i realise that 90% of the land mass is just unpopulated desert.
Secondly- again the media show ISIS rolling along in convoy-surely they can be seen and dispatched almost at will.
Third- Is most of the fighting urban warfare. Snipers, rockets being shot into buildings
Secondly- again the media show ISIS rolling along in convoy-surely they can be seen and dispatched almost at will.
Third- Is most of the fighting urban warfare. Snipers, rockets being shot into buildings
Edited by Burwood on Thursday 8th October 13:47
AJS- said:
Is Russia making US and friends look a bit stupid here? They seem to have done quite a lot in a week where the western forces have achieved little in a year.
That's because Russia actually have an interest in eradicating the terrorists - they want to keep Assad in power and the fundamentalist loonies are a massive threat to him.The West on the other hand want to see Assad out of power and the terrorists have looked like a fairly expedient way of doing so, with the problem of blowback of course. Hence some fiddling around the edges to try to keep them contained to the Middle East. But no really serious attempt to tackle them.
Putin is just taking advantage of the propaganda machine set up in the Western media to justify ever more draconian laws and reductions in civil freedoms for Western civilians, for his own purposes. A bit difficult to take issue with what he's doing when you have spent almost a decade and a half telling Joe Public that some fundamentalist loony with a black towel wrapped around his head is about to decapitate your kids unless you acquiesce to being spied upon 24x7 and give up your freedoms for 'security'.
Hearing today that NATO says:
"stop defending Assad and start attacking ISIS"
Also hear that Assad told Putin a few weeks back that Damascus was in grave danger of 'being lost' to ISIS.
I think its safe to assume that Damascus (and probably the Assad gov) falling to ISIS would be v bad, create a massive power vacuum (remember de-Baathification in Iraq? Countries with unpleasant corrupt governments are still preferable to ones with no government at all) and an even bigger exodus of refugees to Europe.
In which case the ONLY sensible course or action is to :
1. Ignore the north (Kurdish) & east (ISIS/mayhem/desert)of Syria.
2. Stabilise Assad.
3. Destroy ISIS.
4. Remove Assad in a controlled manner, and keep the gov functioning.
Supporting the 'moderate rebels' was the wrong strategy and was only likely to prolong the pain.
The west should STFU for now and join the party at step 3 above, once Putin has done all the dirty work.
"stop defending Assad and start attacking ISIS"
Also hear that Assad told Putin a few weeks back that Damascus was in grave danger of 'being lost' to ISIS.
I think its safe to assume that Damascus (and probably the Assad gov) falling to ISIS would be v bad, create a massive power vacuum (remember de-Baathification in Iraq? Countries with unpleasant corrupt governments are still preferable to ones with no government at all) and an even bigger exodus of refugees to Europe.
In which case the ONLY sensible course or action is to :
1. Ignore the north (Kurdish) & east (ISIS/mayhem/desert)of Syria.
2. Stabilise Assad.
3. Destroy ISIS.
4. Remove Assad in a controlled manner, and keep the gov functioning.
Supporting the 'moderate rebels' was the wrong strategy and was only likely to prolong the pain.
The west should STFU for now and join the party at step 3 above, once Putin has done all the dirty work.
Chimune said:
Hearing today that NATO says:
"stop defending Assad and start attacking ISIS"
Also hear that Assad told Putin a few weeks back that Damascus was in grave danger of 'being lost' to ISIS.
I think its safe to assume that Damascus (and probably the Assad gov) falling to ISIS would be v bad, create a massive power vacuum (remember de-Baathification in Iraq? Countries with unpleasant corrupt governments are still preferable to ones with no government at all) and an even bigger exodus of refugees to Europe.
In which case the ONLY sensible course or action is to :
1. Ignore the north (Kurdish) & east (ISIS/mayhem/desert)of Syria.
2. Stabilise Assad.
3. Destroy ISIS.
4. Remove Assad in a controlled manner, and keep the gov functioning.
Supporting the 'moderate rebels' was the wrong strategy and was only likely to prolong the pain.
The west should STFU for now and join the party at step 3 above, once Putin has done all the dirty work.
We can then go in and engage with the community and re-ignite a new civil war!!"stop defending Assad and start attacking ISIS"
Also hear that Assad told Putin a few weeks back that Damascus was in grave danger of 'being lost' to ISIS.
I think its safe to assume that Damascus (and probably the Assad gov) falling to ISIS would be v bad, create a massive power vacuum (remember de-Baathification in Iraq? Countries with unpleasant corrupt governments are still preferable to ones with no government at all) and an even bigger exodus of refugees to Europe.
In which case the ONLY sensible course or action is to :
1. Ignore the north (Kurdish) & east (ISIS/mayhem/desert)of Syria.
2. Stabilise Assad.
3. Destroy ISIS.
4. Remove Assad in a controlled manner, and keep the gov functioning.
Supporting the 'moderate rebels' was the wrong strategy and was only likely to prolong the pain.
The west should STFU for now and join the party at step 3 above, once Putin has done all the dirty work.
rich85uk said:
I suspect the west are secretly s
tting themselves over Russia's staggering progress and dreading the pictures that will be posted of western supplied weapons with dead terrorists once Russia and Iran launch the ground attacks
Also good for Russia to show off its capabilities too, launching 26 missiles from nearly 1000 miles away is just the start
I think you may be a bit over-optimistic on the chances of the Russkies simply walking over the fundamentalists.tting themselves over Russia's staggering progress and dreading the pictures that will be posted of western supplied weapons with dead terrorists once Russia and Iran launch the ground attacks Also good for Russia to show off its capabilities too, launching 26 missiles from nearly 1000 miles away is just the start
However, it will be interesting when lots of holders of Western passports who have gone over there to fight alongside their fundamentalist fellow travellers get captured (assuming they bother taking them alive of course) and paraded for the cameras, before facing being 'disappeared'. I wonder will our governments take issue with that and demand them back - or be happy for a citizen of their country to be 'Guantanamoed' by the Russians/Syrians? They didn't have a problem when the Yanks did it of course, I can't see them being so blase when it's the Reds.
Four Litre said:
I think once Putin has sorted out Syria (in a matter of weeks) then some serious questions need to be asked as to WTF has been going on over there. Why can one team rock up and sort out the impossible mess, when a bunch of the worlds 'top' military countries cant seem to get the situation even remotely under control in years and with billions of dollars.
The whole thing smells fishier than a rotten fish stew. Clearly there is a lot more to this than we are being told, demonstrated by the ease in which Russia have dealt with the situation. Hopefully given time, a lot of whats been going on will come out. Quite possibly it will be that we are being ruled by government that really have S**t for brains, which wouldnt be that big a surprise. However, is there something more sinister been going on here? At one point all the wild internet rhumours about the CIA, Mossad etc etc I just blanked as pure BS, but now Im not so sure.
Personally, Mr Putin has quite possibly pulled one of the biggest PR stunts for Russia the world has ever seen. Hes literally made Obama, Dave and Hollandaise sauce look like a bunch total incompetent fools.
Im hoping Iraq then as Putin for help, that would cause some serious red faces.
Four,The whole thing smells fishier than a rotten fish stew. Clearly there is a lot more to this than we are being told, demonstrated by the ease in which Russia have dealt with the situation. Hopefully given time, a lot of whats been going on will come out. Quite possibly it will be that we are being ruled by government that really have S**t for brains, which wouldnt be that big a surprise. However, is there something more sinister been going on here? At one point all the wild internet rhumours about the CIA, Mossad etc etc I just blanked as pure BS, but now Im not so sure.
Personally, Mr Putin has quite possibly pulled one of the biggest PR stunts for Russia the world has ever seen. Hes literally made Obama, Dave and Hollandaise sauce look like a bunch total incompetent fools.
Im hoping Iraq then as Putin for help, that would cause some serious red faces.
Edited by Four Litre on Thursday 8th October 10:50
You think the situation is dealt with
Phil
TheJimi said:
Are the Russians actually as successful as they appear to be here?
Have the coalition been sandbagging in their offensive against ISIS?
I genuinely don't know what to believe.
No-one seems to be answering this, and going by recent posts, many of you seem to believe that the Russians are *actually* doing better within two weeks than the coalition have done in a much larger space of time.Have the coalition been sandbagging in their offensive against ISIS?
I genuinely don't know what to believe.
Personally, I'm struggling to believe it.
TheJimi said:
No-one seems to be answering this, and going by recent posts, many of you seem to believe that the Russians are *actually* doing better within two weeks than the coalition have done in a much larger space of time.
Personally, I'm struggling to believe it.
"It'll be over by Christmas!" Personally, I'm struggling to believe it.
Zod
Most western countries also have declining populations. The US doesn't mostly because of massive immigration from Latin America as I understand it. How this will play out in the longer run is not known.
The might not manufacture dishwashers and TVs but they are obviously perfectly up to building weapons and vehicles and can produce the fuel to run them. Not sure how long they could sustain this under all out war but they can project their military power without anyone's say so.
Why do it? And why now? I think Putin has been building up to this for years. He took over a fairly chaotic Russia that was in danger of falling apart like a supersized Yugoslavia. He's ridden the oil boom and made them a force to be reckoned with again. But there's no point in being a theoretical power if you don't use it. He has deemed that this is in Russian interests and used the military might to make it so.
Quite why it's deemed to be in Russias interests is a bit unclear, but no more so than why the west suddenly decided it was important to overthrow Assad, or indeed to get involved in this impossible mess to start with.
Most western countries also have declining populations. The US doesn't mostly because of massive immigration from Latin America as I understand it. How this will play out in the longer run is not known.
The might not manufacture dishwashers and TVs but they are obviously perfectly up to building weapons and vehicles and can produce the fuel to run them. Not sure how long they could sustain this under all out war but they can project their military power without anyone's say so.
Why do it? And why now? I think Putin has been building up to this for years. He took over a fairly chaotic Russia that was in danger of falling apart like a supersized Yugoslavia. He's ridden the oil boom and made them a force to be reckoned with again. But there's no point in being a theoretical power if you don't use it. He has deemed that this is in Russian interests and used the military might to make it so.
Quite why it's deemed to be in Russias interests is a bit unclear, but no more so than why the west suddenly decided it was important to overthrow Assad, or indeed to get involved in this impossible mess to start with.
TheJimi said:
TheJimi said:
Are the Russians actually as successful as they appear to be here?
Have the coalition been sandbagging in their offensive against ISIS?
I genuinely don't know what to believe.
No-one seems to be answering this, and going by recent posts, many of you seem to believe that the Russians are *actually* doing better within two weeks than the coalition have done in a much larger space of time.Have the coalition been sandbagging in their offensive against ISIS?
I genuinely don't know what to believe.
Personally, I'm struggling to believe it.
So, yes Russia is only doing 'better' as it's going after targets the west hasn't which are probably easier to go after, such as Free Syrian army units etc.,etc.
Russia will only go after ISIS when/if it suits their primary objective.
Russia is also doing way better because it's working will ground elements in a co-ordinated way, which NATO hasn't been able to do, and as we all know (those that can see the wood for the trees and aren't in politics that is) you can't do squat by air attacks alone.
AJS- said:
Most western countries also have declining populations. The US doesn't mostly because of massive immigration from Latin America as I understand it. How this will play out in the longer run is not known.
I wonder would this problem be resolved if we had tight restrictions on who could have an abortion. 180,000/year in the UK...
Esseesse said:
AJS- said:
Most western countries also have declining populations. The US doesn't mostly because of massive immigration from Latin America as I understand it. How this will play out in the longer run is not known.
I wonder would this problem be resolved if we had tight restrictions on who could have an abortion. 180,000/year in the UK...Essesse
Way off topic but interesting in it's own right.
Even as a fairly complete atheist that's a large number of abortions and I would like to see it fall a lot. The problem is whether you would end up just with a big impoverished population whose underclass were out breeding the productive class even faster than they already are. Maybe even worse as the marginals who made a one off mistake would probably be more careful and the incurably reckless would carry on regardless.
This is where a bit of fire and brimstone right wing Christianity could actually be a good thing. If we could be the one western country to really buck the trend and have a strong, employed and socially functional indigenous working class we would be unstoppable.
Way off topic but interesting in it's own right.
Even as a fairly complete atheist that's a large number of abortions and I would like to see it fall a lot. The problem is whether you would end up just with a big impoverished population whose underclass were out breeding the productive class even faster than they already are. Maybe even worse as the marginals who made a one off mistake would probably be more careful and the incurably reckless would carry on regardless.
This is where a bit of fire and brimstone right wing Christianity could actually be a good thing. If we could be the one western country to really buck the trend and have a strong, employed and socially functional indigenous working class we would be unstoppable.
TheJimi said:
Are the Russians actually as successful as they appear to be here?
Have the coalition been sandbagging in their offensive against ISIS?
I genuinely don't know what to believe.
I'll have a go at answering your questions.Have the coalition been sandbagging in their offensive against ISIS?
I genuinely don't know what to believe.
1. Only time will tell.
2. Tricky to hit your target when it's embedded with the locals.
You have to ask the further question where's the date stamped images/video's of all the IS kills that the Russians or SAAF for that matter are purportedly supposed to have made in the past week or two?
Phil
AJS- said:
Essesse
Way off topic but interesting in it's own right.
Even as a fairly complete atheist that's a large number of abortions and I would like to see it fall a lot. The problem is whether you would end up just with a big impoverished population whose underclass were out breeding the productive class even faster than they already are. Maybe even worse as the marginals who made a one off mistake would probably be more careful and the incurably reckless would carry on regardless.
This is where a bit of fire and brimstone right wing Christianity could actually be a good thing. If we could be the one western country to really buck the trend and have a strong, employed and socially functional indigenous working class we would be unstoppable.
Once again, apologies for continuing off topic... But yes, although I couldn't say I'm really religious, in recent years I have come to the conclusion that Christianity is really what once kept the UK on the straight and narrow. Previously I had never given much thought to abortion, but once you have a dig around the details I find it impossible to agree with in anything but the very very rarest of cases. As you say, the side effect of the removal of this get out of jail free card would almost undoubtedly be people who behave in a more responsible way. I notice that they cost £600/go too, so that would also be £100M saved for the NHS/year.Way off topic but interesting in it's own right.
Even as a fairly complete atheist that's a large number of abortions and I would like to see it fall a lot. The problem is whether you would end up just with a big impoverished population whose underclass were out breeding the productive class even faster than they already are. Maybe even worse as the marginals who made a one off mistake would probably be more careful and the incurably reckless would carry on regardless.
This is where a bit of fire and brimstone right wing Christianity could actually be a good thing. If we could be the one western country to really buck the trend and have a strong, employed and socially functional indigenous working class we would be unstoppable.
Esseesse said:
AJS- said:
Most western countries also have declining populations. The US doesn't mostly because of massive immigration from Latin America as I understand it. How this will play out in the longer run is not known.
I wonder would this problem be resolved if we had tight restrictions on who could have an abortion. 180,000/year in the UK...fblm said:
Esseesse said:
AJS- said:
Most western countries also have declining populations. The US doesn't mostly because of massive immigration from Latin America as I understand it. How this will play out in the longer run is not known.
I wonder would this problem be resolved if we had tight restrictions on who could have an abortion. 180,000/year in the UK...Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff