Meanwhile, In Syria

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Discussion

QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
When and where did the US last use cluster munitions and what's your personal thoughts on them being used in Syria?

Phil
The US and UK use nearly 13,000 cluster munitions containing an estimated 1.8 to 2 million submunitions in the three weeks of major combat in Iraq.

They are effective hence why they are used. This does not only mean Air-dropped weapons, but also tube and rocket artillery, only If the failure rate of the submunitions is sufficiently low.

What is your view of air dropping weapons into Syria?

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
So this is basically another middle eastern complete fking mess.

We had religious and tribal groups that don't like each other but kept in order by brutal dictators.
We have the arab spring which has led to a revolt against Assad
We have the destruction of Sadam Hussein and the refusal to integrate his republican guard into the iraqi army creating ISIS.
We have the wests refusal to either back Assad or deploy ground troops against him leading to an ineffectual opposition.
We have Russia being isolated by the west due to the Ukraine, now exerting itself as a world power supporting Assad and forcing the west to engage with them.

Unless the west is willing to deploy ground troops, it looks like a Russian supported Syrian Army, is the most likely end to ISIS in Syria. Unfortunately, the west must decide who the biggest threat is, Assad or ISIS. Continued power vacuums in the middle east appear to lead to even worse regimes seizing power.




AngryPartsBloke

1,436 posts

150 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Transmitter Man said:
When and where did the US last use cluster munitions and what's your personal thoughts on them being used in Syria?

Phil
The US and UK use nearly 13,000 cluster munitions containing an estimated 1.8 to 2 million submunitions in the three weeks of major combat in Iraq.

They are effective hence why they are used. This does not only mean Air-dropped weapons, but also tube and rocket artillery, only If the failure rate of the submunitions is sufficiently low.

What is your view of air dropping weapons into Syria?
Indeed, the multi launch rocket system the UK and US use earnt the nickname the 'Grid square removal system' due to it's ability to blanket an entire square KM with submuntiions. They have a 2% failure rate, but with 12 rockets containing 23,000 submunitions that's still a lot.

Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
Iraq, 2003-'06. Nearly 13,000 of them. But I suspect you don't really care about the use of cluster munitions, so it's rather a waste of time discussing them.
You suspect wrong.

You'd have to be out of your mind to not care about cluster munitions, let alone other munitions same for gas out the back of helicopters.

Phil

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
Budflicker said:
I think that a lot of people on here that you are debating with understand the Russians/Syrian government are up to no good but are also tired of the media being so biased in its reporting.
+1

And people are just sick tired with our own government's hypocrisy when it comes to the Middle East.

Assad crushes a peaceful uprising and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' the Al Khalifa family in Bahrain crush a peaceful uprising the very same leaders remain silent.

Assad's forces bomb innocent men, women and children in Syria and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' in the House of Saud bomb innocent men, women and children in Yemen the very same leaders remain silent.

Putin and Russia don't give a st about international law and human rights but at least they don't lie about it and show selective outrage over such issues like we do.

Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
BlackLabel said:
+1

And people are just sick tired with our own government's hypocrisy when it comes to the Middle East.

Assad crushes a peaceful uprising and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' the Al Khalifa family in Bahrain crush a peaceful uprising the very same leaders remain silent.

Assad's forces bomb innocent men, women and children in Syria and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' in the House of Saud bomb innocent men, women and children in Yemen the very same leaders remain silent.

Putin and Russia don't give a st about international law and human rights but at least they don't lie about it and show selective outrage over such issues like we do.
Kind of off topic but, so Russia did not lie about sending troops (on vacation with their weapons & backup) into Ukraine, a sovereign state?

Phil

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
Kind of off topic but, so Russia did not lie about sending troops (on vacation with their weapons & backup) into Ukraine, a sovereign state?

Phil
If they did, these guys would certainly know. hehe


Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
If they did, these guys would certainly know. hehe

How would a shot from behind several men in flak jackets answer the question, they may as well be in Brixton.

Phil

scherzkeks

4,460 posts

133 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
How would a shot from behind several men in flak jackets answer the question, they may as well be in Brixton.

Phil
But they aren't. smile

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
scherzkeks said:
Transmitter Man said:
How would a shot from behind several men in flak jackets answer the question, they may as well be in Brixton.

Phil
But they aren't. smile
No, not according to your source.

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rofl

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
Zod said:
rofl
Comedy gold. Great work scherzkeks hehe

QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
BlackLabel said:
Budflicker said:
I think that a lot of people on here that you are debating with understand the Russians/Syrian government are up to no good but are also tired of the media being so biased in its reporting.
+1

And people are just sick tired with our own government's hypocrisy when it comes to the Middle East.

Assad crushes a peaceful uprising and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' the Al Khalifa family in Bahrain crush a peaceful uprising the very same leaders remain silent.

Assad's forces bomb innocent men, women and children in Syria and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' in the House of Saud bomb innocent men, women and children in Yemen the very same leaders remain silent.

Putin and Russia don't give a st about international law and human rights but at least they don't lie about it and show selective outrage over such issues like we do.
+1 Nail meet head.

Mr M. Gove has some backbone. I might not agree with him on some of his education policies, but full marks for showing some moral courage, likewise Corbyn, Carswell and Javid for supporting him.

http://order-order.com/2015/10/13/victory-for-gove...

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Tuesday 13th October 17:14

Driller

8,310 posts

277 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
scherzkeks said:
Iraq, 2003-'06. Nearly 13,000 of them. But I suspect you don't really care about the use of cluster munitions, so it's rather a waste of time discussing them.
You suspect wrong.

You'd have to be out of your mind to not care about cluster munitions, let alone other munitions same for gas out the back of helicopters.

Phil
Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Killing soldiers and civilians by lots of little multiple explosions and gas is not the same as blowing them to smithereens by regulation great big bombs and cutting them in half with regulation machine gun fire.


Cobnapint

8,596 posts

150 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
Driller said:
Killing soldiers and civilians by lots of little multiple explosions and gas is not the same as blowing them to smithereens by regulation great big bombs and cutting them in half with regulation machine gun fire.
Fully agree with the sentiment.

Never understood the anti-cluster bomb/barrel bomb argument. As if it's ok to detonate a conventional 500lb'er and allow a devastating shock wave and red hot shrapnel to rip through the enemy, blowing limbs off in the process so they are left on the ground bleeding to death, begging for assistance, while an A10 strafes the next street with DU's ripping into APC's and tanks, frying the inhabitants alive.

But it's an international shock-horror no-no to drop a plastic container from a helicopter packed with explosives and metal fragments, or fire highly effective cluster munitions that destroy the enemy probably more effectively than most things out there.

It's as though the mind set is:- you can have weapons, only as long as they kill the enemy in an acceptable way, and can't be picked up by a toddler 6 years down the line.

Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
The situation in Africa with land mine problems in the past does show that some weapons are more "unethical" than others though. Perhaps indiscriminate is a better word - but then again cruise missiles ETC aren't 100% accurate either.

Driller

8,310 posts

277 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
It's hypocritical bullst.

Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
Maybe we could be cynical and say that there's plenty of charity money to be made from reacting to such endeavors, in years to come. silly

QuantumTokoloshi

4,161 posts

216 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
The problem with cluster munitions is the legacy they leave behind.

Laos is still blighted by the USA dropping millions of tons of cluster munitions, the heaviest bombed country in the world ever.

The sub munitions had a high failure rate, leaving them armed but undetonated. These munitions are still maiming farmers and in particular children today, 40 years later.

A similar situation in Fallujah, which has a hugely disproportionate level of aborted or deformed births to the population size, suspected to be related to use of depleted uranium munitions.

The well documented agent orange dioxin contamination is another example.Some weapons also damage the next generation, ask the Japanese.



Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Tuesday 13th October 21:33

Driller

8,310 posts

277 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
QT I agree with all of your sentiments on this thread re Syria etc but I just can't get the irony of, whatever the reason, trying to use a moral argument to justify using certain weapons to take life and not others.

Bearing in mind that the reasons for most of the life taking are financial.

Gandahar

9,600 posts

127 months

Tuesday 13th October 2015
quotequote all
Transmitter Man said:
Extraordinary video from Idlib, showing 100s of cluster munitions, possibly fired by BM-30 Smerch, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-30_Smerch) landing in Skek:

I thought cluster munitions were banned after Serbia, anyone?

https://youtu.be/MsCbG0t1Ds8

Phil
Still think TOW video's sexy Phil?

Seems they have seen that and raised.