Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
Transmitter Man said:
When and where did the US last use cluster munitions and what's your personal thoughts on them being used in Syria?
Phil
The US and UK use nearly 13,000 cluster munitions containing an estimated 1.8 to 2 million submunitions in the three weeks of major combat in Iraq.Phil
They are effective hence why they are used. This does not only mean Air-dropped weapons, but also tube and rocket artillery, only If the failure rate of the submunitions is sufficiently low.
What is your view of air dropping weapons into Syria?
So this is basically another middle eastern complete fking mess.
We had religious and tribal groups that don't like each other but kept in order by brutal dictators.
We have the arab spring which has led to a revolt against Assad
We have the destruction of Sadam Hussein and the refusal to integrate his republican guard into the iraqi army creating ISIS.
We have the wests refusal to either back Assad or deploy ground troops against him leading to an ineffectual opposition.
We have Russia being isolated by the west due to the Ukraine, now exerting itself as a world power supporting Assad and forcing the west to engage with them.
Unless the west is willing to deploy ground troops, it looks like a Russian supported Syrian Army, is the most likely end to ISIS in Syria. Unfortunately, the west must decide who the biggest threat is, Assad or ISIS. Continued power vacuums in the middle east appear to lead to even worse regimes seizing power.
We had religious and tribal groups that don't like each other but kept in order by brutal dictators.
We have the arab spring which has led to a revolt against Assad
We have the destruction of Sadam Hussein and the refusal to integrate his republican guard into the iraqi army creating ISIS.
We have the wests refusal to either back Assad or deploy ground troops against him leading to an ineffectual opposition.
We have Russia being isolated by the west due to the Ukraine, now exerting itself as a world power supporting Assad and forcing the west to engage with them.
Unless the west is willing to deploy ground troops, it looks like a Russian supported Syrian Army, is the most likely end to ISIS in Syria. Unfortunately, the west must decide who the biggest threat is, Assad or ISIS. Continued power vacuums in the middle east appear to lead to even worse regimes seizing power.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Transmitter Man said:
When and where did the US last use cluster munitions and what's your personal thoughts on them being used in Syria?
Phil
The US and UK use nearly 13,000 cluster munitions containing an estimated 1.8 to 2 million submunitions in the three weeks of major combat in Iraq.Phil
They are effective hence why they are used. This does not only mean Air-dropped weapons, but also tube and rocket artillery, only If the failure rate of the submunitions is sufficiently low.
What is your view of air dropping weapons into Syria?
scherzkeks said:
Iraq, 2003-'06. Nearly 13,000 of them. But I suspect you don't really care about the use of cluster munitions, so it's rather a waste of time discussing them.
You suspect wrong.You'd have to be out of your mind to not care about cluster munitions, let alone other munitions same for gas out the back of helicopters.
Phil
Budflicker said:
I think that a lot of people on here that you are debating with understand the Russians/Syrian government are up to no good but are also tired of the media being so biased in its reporting.
+1And people are just sick tired with our own government's hypocrisy when it comes to the Middle East.
Assad crushes a peaceful uprising and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' the Al Khalifa family in Bahrain crush a peaceful uprising the very same leaders remain silent.
Assad's forces bomb innocent men, women and children in Syria and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' in the House of Saud bomb innocent men, women and children in Yemen the very same leaders remain silent.
Putin and Russia don't give a st about international law and human rights but at least they don't lie about it and show selective outrage over such issues like we do.
BlackLabel said:
+1
And people are just sick tired with our own government's hypocrisy when it comes to the Middle East.
Assad crushes a peaceful uprising and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' the Al Khalifa family in Bahrain crush a peaceful uprising the very same leaders remain silent.
Assad's forces bomb innocent men, women and children in Syria and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' in the House of Saud bomb innocent men, women and children in Yemen the very same leaders remain silent.
Putin and Russia don't give a st about international law and human rights but at least they don't lie about it and show selective outrage over such issues like we do.
Kind of off topic but, so Russia did not lie about sending troops (on vacation with their weapons & backup) into Ukraine, a sovereign state?And people are just sick tired with our own government's hypocrisy when it comes to the Middle East.
Assad crushes a peaceful uprising and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' the Al Khalifa family in Bahrain crush a peaceful uprising the very same leaders remain silent.
Assad's forces bomb innocent men, women and children in Syria and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' in the House of Saud bomb innocent men, women and children in Yemen the very same leaders remain silent.
Putin and Russia don't give a st about international law and human rights but at least they don't lie about it and show selective outrage over such issues like we do.
Phil
scherzkeks said:
Transmitter Man said:
How would a shot from behind several men in flak jackets answer the question, they may as well be in Brixton.
Phil
But they aren't. Phil
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BlackLabel said:
Budflicker said:
I think that a lot of people on here that you are debating with understand the Russians/Syrian government are up to no good but are also tired of the media being so biased in its reporting.
+1And people are just sick tired with our own government's hypocrisy when it comes to the Middle East.
Assad crushes a peaceful uprising and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' the Al Khalifa family in Bahrain crush a peaceful uprising the very same leaders remain silent.
Assad's forces bomb innocent men, women and children in Syria and Obama, Cameron et al demand he is overthrown. Yet when our 'friends' in the House of Saud bomb innocent men, women and children in Yemen the very same leaders remain silent.
Putin and Russia don't give a st about international law and human rights but at least they don't lie about it and show selective outrage over such issues like we do.
Mr M. Gove has some backbone. I might not agree with him on some of his education policies, but full marks for showing some moral courage, likewise Corbyn, Carswell and Javid for supporting him.
http://order-order.com/2015/10/13/victory-for-gove...
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Tuesday 13th October 17:14
Transmitter Man said:
scherzkeks said:
Iraq, 2003-'06. Nearly 13,000 of them. But I suspect you don't really care about the use of cluster munitions, so it's rather a waste of time discussing them.
You suspect wrong.You'd have to be out of your mind to not care about cluster munitions, let alone other munitions same for gas out the back of helicopters.
Phil
Killing soldiers and civilians by lots of little multiple explosions and gas is not the same as blowing them to smithereens by regulation great big bombs and cutting them in half with regulation machine gun fire.
Driller said:
Killing soldiers and civilians by lots of little multiple explosions and gas is not the same as blowing them to smithereens by regulation great big bombs and cutting them in half with regulation machine gun fire.
Fully agree with the sentiment. Never understood the anti-cluster bomb/barrel bomb argument. As if it's ok to detonate a conventional 500lb'er and allow a devastating shock wave and red hot shrapnel to rip through the enemy, blowing limbs off in the process so they are left on the ground bleeding to death, begging for assistance, while an A10 strafes the next street with DU's ripping into APC's and tanks, frying the inhabitants alive.
But it's an international shock-horror no-no to drop a plastic container from a helicopter packed with explosives and metal fragments, or fire highly effective cluster munitions that destroy the enemy probably more effectively than most things out there.
It's as though the mind set is:- you can have weapons, only as long as they kill the enemy in an acceptable way, and can't be picked up by a toddler 6 years down the line.
The problem with cluster munitions is the legacy they leave behind.
Laos is still blighted by the USA dropping millions of tons of cluster munitions, the heaviest bombed country in the world ever.
The sub munitions had a high failure rate, leaving them armed but undetonated. These munitions are still maiming farmers and in particular children today, 40 years later.
A similar situation in Fallujah, which has a hugely disproportionate level of aborted or deformed births to the population size, suspected to be related to use of depleted uranium munitions.
The well documented agent orange dioxin contamination is another example.Some weapons also damage the next generation, ask the Japanese.
Laos is still blighted by the USA dropping millions of tons of cluster munitions, the heaviest bombed country in the world ever.
The sub munitions had a high failure rate, leaving them armed but undetonated. These munitions are still maiming farmers and in particular children today, 40 years later.
A similar situation in Fallujah, which has a hugely disproportionate level of aborted or deformed births to the population size, suspected to be related to use of depleted uranium munitions.
The well documented agent orange dioxin contamination is another example.Some weapons also damage the next generation, ask the Japanese.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Tuesday 13th October 21:33
QT I agree with all of your sentiments on this thread re Syria etc but I just can't get the irony of, whatever the reason, trying to use a moral argument to justify using certain weapons to take life and not others.
Bearing in mind that the reasons for most of the life taking are financial.
Bearing in mind that the reasons for most of the life taking are financial.
Transmitter Man said:
Extraordinary video from Idlib, showing 100s of cluster munitions, possibly fired by BM-30 Smerch, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-30_Smerch) landing in Skek:
I thought cluster munitions were banned after Serbia, anyone?
https://youtu.be/MsCbG0t1Ds8
Phil
Still think TOW video's sexy Phil? I thought cluster munitions were banned after Serbia, anyone?
https://youtu.be/MsCbG0t1Ds8
Phil
Seems they have seen that and raised.
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