Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
glazbagun said:
cirian75 said:
did Turkey not think to tell their Turkmen if we shoot down a Russian/Syrian jet, do not shoot the ejected pilots ?
Who were the Russians bombing? If it was a Turk-backed rebel group fighting Assad I doubt it would matter even if they were told.Are the Russians/Syrians the only guys flying in that area? Are the Turkmen being given information of the location of Russian planes?
Surely with all the aircraft buzzing about the place that could have been a French, US or Turkish plane for that matter.
It would seem these Turkmen are very well informed and armed.
It's a right mess.
V8A*ndy said:
glazbagun said:
cirian75 said:
did Turkey not think to tell their Turkmen if we shoot down a Russian/Syrian jet, do not shoot the ejected pilots ?
Who were the Russians bombing? If it was a Turk-backed rebel group fighting Assad I doubt it would matter even if they were told.Are the Russians/Syrians the only guys flying in that area? Are the Turkmen being given information of the location of Russian planes?
Surely with all the aircraft buzzing about the place that could have been a French, US or Turkish plane for that matter.
It would seem these Turkmen are very well informed and armed.
It's a right mess.
amusingduck said:
You simply cannot boil this down into a black and white rule. You've stated that once the line is crossed, its fair game. What then, is crossing the line?
The tip of the wing crossing the border?
Half of the plane?
The entire plane? What happens if 3% of the plane was still beyond the border?
Context matters. And the context for this scenario paints Turkey far worse IMO.
The context in this case is a fully armed bomber, flying uninvited over another country, while on bombing missions against and ally of the nation who's border was violated, after the plane had been told repeatedly not to cross the border or it'd be shot at. We're not debating how much of the plane was over a line. The whole thing was over for some time.The tip of the wing crossing the border?
Half of the plane?
The entire plane? What happens if 3% of the plane was still beyond the border?
Context matters. And the context for this scenario paints Turkey far worse IMO.
This isn't a French plane straying into Germany while on exercise. This is a bomber who if it was lost could have accidentally dropped munitions inside Turkey, on Turkish nationals. They crossed the line, they got shot at. Tough.
Turkey shouldn't be doing it the other way either. If nobody want's to get shot at, nobody should be operating in the area of that border. If they choose to operate in the area of the border, they accept the risks at the "other side" of the border will defend the air above them.
And I don't buy Russia's argument that it didn't cross the border any more than I buy "those troops in Crimea are not Russian troops". Russia's word on military matters is entirely worthless, we have to judge them on their observable actions alone.
Munter said:
The context in this case is a fully armed bomber, flying uninvited over another country, while on bombing missions against and ally of the nation who's border was violated, after the plane had been told repeatedly not to cross the border or it'd be shot at. We're not debating how much of the plane was over a line. The whole thing was over for some time.
This isn't a French plane straying into Germany while on exercise. This is a bomber who if it was lost could have accidentally dropped munitions inside Turkey, on Turkish nationals. They crossed the line, they got shot at. Tough.
Turkey shouldn't be doing it the other way either. If nobody want's to get shot at, nobody should be operating in the area of that border. If they choose to operate in the area of the border, they accept the risks at the "other side" of the border will defend the air above them.
And I don't buy Russia's argument that it didn't cross the border any more than I buy "those troops in Crimea are not Russian troops". Russia's word on military matters is entirely worthless, we have to judge them on their observable actions alone.
turkey has bombed syrian kurds many times this year, why do they feel entitled to cross to another country uninvited yet shoot an aircraft that just skimmed their airspace for a couple of seconds?!This isn't a French plane straying into Germany while on exercise. This is a bomber who if it was lost could have accidentally dropped munitions inside Turkey, on Turkish nationals. They crossed the line, they got shot at. Tough.
Turkey shouldn't be doing it the other way either. If nobody want's to get shot at, nobody should be operating in the area of that border. If they choose to operate in the area of the border, they accept the risks at the "other side" of the border will defend the air above them.
And I don't buy Russia's argument that it didn't cross the border any more than I buy "those troops in Crimea are not Russian troops". Russia's word on military matters is entirely worthless, we have to judge them on their observable actions alone.
AreOut said:
turkey has bombed syrian kurds many times this year, why do they feel entitled to cross to another country uninvited yet shoot an aircraft that just skimmed their airspace for a couple of seconds?!
The real question is why didn't Syria defend it's airspace? Then you can probably answer your question yourself.Munter said:
The real question is why didn't Syria defend it's airspace? Then you can probably answer your question yourself.
Don't worry - I'm sure that Syrian airspace will be adequately defended from Turkish incursion from here on in. Lets just hope that no Turkish planes fly up to their own border and stray across for a couple of seconds or who knows what might happen, eh?V8A*ndy said:
How did they (Turkmen) know this was a Russian plane though.
Are the Russians/Syrians the only guys flying in that area? Are the Turkmen being given information of the location of Russian planes?
Surely with all the aircraft buzzing about the place that could have been a French, US or Turkish plane for that matter.
It would seem these Turkmen are very well informed and armed.
It's a right mess.
Luckily though, a Turkish camera crew just happened to be in the perfect position to get good pictures of the jet going down. What a coincidence!Are the Russians/Syrians the only guys flying in that area? Are the Turkmen being given information of the location of Russian planes?
Surely with all the aircraft buzzing about the place that could have been a French, US or Turkish plane for that matter.
It would seem these Turkmen are very well informed and armed.
It's a right mess.
because there was a "gentleman's agreement", russian(and other) planes over Syria didn't even turn on electronic jamming so not to bring other parties to confusion, as nobody expected something like this
just now russian survivor pilot testified they were not given any warning, being it visual or audio
hard times for turkey are coming
just now russian survivor pilot testified they were not given any warning, being it visual or audio
hard times for turkey are coming
AreOut said:
because there was a "gentleman's agreement", russian(and other) planes over Syria didn't even turn on electronic jamming so not to bring other parties to confusion, as nobody expected something like this
just now russian survivor pilot testified they were not given any warning, being it visual or audio
hard times for turkey are coming
Indeed.just now russian survivor pilot testified they were not given any warning, being it visual or audio
hard times for turkey are coming
As the Greeks have just said, hypocritical from the Turks, as they quite happily on a regular basis piss the Greeks off and fly into Greek airspace uninvited, and 'we don't shoot them down'....
Lucas Ayde said:
Munter said:
The real question is why didn't Syria defend it's airspace? Then you can probably answer your question yourself.
Don't worry - I'm sure that Syrian airspace will be adequately defended from Turkish incursion from here on in. Lets just hope that no Turkish planes fly up to their own border and stray across for a couple of seconds or who knows what might happen, eh?Munter said:
I know you are trying to be sarcastic. But I made that point myself. Neither side should be flying over that border uninvited. If they do and they get shot at...tough.
So we can expect no complaints from you when Turkish aircraft start getting shot down over (or near enough to claim that they were at some point over) Syrian airspace?AreOut said:
just now russian survivor pilot testified they were not given any warning, being it visual or audio
hard times for turkey are coming
As somebody has just said, you cannot believe a single word that comes from the Russian military or the Kremlin.hard times for turkey are coming
They lie for a living.
OK, Turkey perhaps over reacted, but Russia has been taking the piss for years with regard to global airspace. This will perhaps do them, and every f
ker else, some good.AreOut said:
because there was a "gentleman's agreement", russian(and other) planes over Syria didn't even turn on electronic jamming so not to bring other parties to confusion, as nobody expected something like this
Indeed. Nobody expected a Russian plane to invade Turkish airspace. You'd have to be nuts to do that and think they wouldn't shoot at you. Given the current situation and all.As for "A Russian pilot said". If they have no material proof. We have to assume it's just Maskirovka in practice. Even if the pilot had said they were warned. We'd still have to assume it was a lie for some reason.
Munter said:
Indeed. Nobody expected a Russian plane to invade Turkish airspace. You'd have to be nuts to do that and think they wouldn't shoot at you. Given the current situation and all.
As for "A Russian pilot said". If they have no material proof. We have to assume it's just Maskirovka in practice. Even if the pilot had said they were warned. We'd still have to assume it was a lie for some reason.
WHilst of course assuming that the Turks (who conspire with ISIS to smuggle the oil which provides a large part of their funding for terrorist activities) are on the level. ROTFLMAO!As for "A Russian pilot said". If they have no material proof. We have to assume it's just Maskirovka in practice. Even if the pilot had said they were warned. We'd still have to assume it was a lie for some reason.
The main reason we have a migrant swarm is Assad's thousands of barrel bombs. Designed principally to kill civilians who are "disloyal" to him.
Here is a compilation video of what it is like living under them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkuW1FcoWsI
Here is a compilation video of what it is like living under them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkuW1FcoWsI
Adam Ansel said:
The main reason we have a migrant swarm is Assad's thousands of barrel bombs. Designed principally to kill civilians who are "disloyal" to him.
Here is a compilation video of what it is like living under them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkuW1FcoWsI
According to Quantum, they don't exist and the Syrian people love Assad.Here is a compilation video of what it is like living under them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkuW1FcoWsI
Lucas Ayde said:
Munter said:
Indeed. Nobody expected a Russian plane to invade Turkish airspace. You'd have to be nuts to do that and think they wouldn't shoot at you. Given the current situation and all.
As for "A Russian pilot said". If they have no material proof. We have to assume it's just Maskirovka in practice. Even if the pilot had said they were warned. We'd still have to assume it was a lie for some reason.
WHilst of course assuming that the Turks (who conspire with ISIS to smuggle the oil which provides a large part of their funding for terrorist activities) are on the level. ROTFLMAO!As for "A Russian pilot said". If they have no material proof. We have to assume it's just Maskirovka in practice. Even if the pilot had said they were warned. We'd still have to assume it was a lie for some reason.
Adam Ansel said:
The main reason we have a migrant swarm is Assad's thousands of barrel bombs. Designed principally to kill civilians who are "disloyal" to him.
Here is a compilation video of what it is like living under them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkuW1FcoWsI
Is there any other stuff going on in the country (like say - a massive civil war, funded by external countries with a vested interest in destroying the old state) which might also be contributing to the exodus, perhaps?Here is a compilation video of what it is like living under them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkuW1FcoWsI
Or it's all just Evil despot Assad and his despicable barrel bombs?
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