Meanwhile, In Syria

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Discussion

del mar

2,838 posts

198 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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Whilst late to the party here I don't see the point of bombing Isis, nor do I buy any of the arguments about keeping us safe in our beds at night, but not for any left wing/ terrorist sympathiser views - it does not address the underlying problem.

Al Qaeda was the big terrorist threat for over a decade, carrying out atrocities either directly or inspiring others to carry them out in there name. Ohh the world was a safer place when we killed Bin Laden - we even made a film about it probably costing and taking millions.

Yet I don't get the impression our illustrious leaders feel the world is much safer place today. So we destroy Isis and make another film about it and the world is a great place to be for another coupe of years.....

I did geography not history at school but am aware of the Reformation, Martin Luther and all that. It was a very difficult time for the Christian Church, but it probably needed to go through this change.

Of course not every Muslim in the world wants to kill me, I understand, that, but Islam is going through a difficult period in its history, there are obviously aspects of their beliefs that can be mis-interpreted, and people do. They need to go through the same difficult process that Christianity did, I just hope that Isis and the like is not the outcome.




Gandahar

9,600 posts

127 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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Considering the amount of bombs dropped on Lagos and Vietnam over 30 years and with many boots on the ground, do we think bombing IS will be a good solution?

The funny thing is we are bombing them in Syria whilst not in support of the local regime. Normally we stick on one side or the other. But here we don't like either side, and just bomb one. Perhaps we should bomb Syrian government forces too just to be fair as we don't like either?

The whole situation is so mixed up in Syria it beggers belief. I watched a US supplied TOW blow up a US supplied Humvee the other day on youtube. Apparently the guys with the TOW were the goodies. At least for this week.



Edited by Gandahar on Friday 4th December 14:32

Stickyfinger

8,429 posts

104 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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del mar said:
but Islam is going through a difficult period in its history, there are obviously aspects of their beliefs that can be mis-interpreted


SilverSixer

8,202 posts

150 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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Trevatanus said:
el stovey said:
They have considerable outgoings with fighters reportedly paid around £250 a week. They have to provide services to all the inhabitants of it's territories. Apparently they have reserves of up to a year if all revenue streams were to stop immediately.
So presumably all this cash is in a bank somewhere and not under a big mattress? Can it not be traced / confiscated?
Not only that, what does a good extremist muslim want with a grand a month? He needs food and a burqa for his wife. He doesn't need things like DVD players, Coca Cola, Rolex watches and Barbour jackets now does he, that would be sinful and unislamic. Right? He's not saving up to go on holiday to Club Med in Lanzarote, is he?

Gandahar

9,600 posts

127 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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Stickyfinger said:
del mar said:
but Islam is going through a difficult period in its history, there are obviously aspects of their beliefs that can be mis-interpreted
Don't forget Christians have been causing terror in that part of the world since the first crusade, for the valid reason that God exists. Which is now shot down often on Pistonheads of course as being a fairy tale smile

vonuber

17,868 posts

164 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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Gandahar said:
Don't forget Christians have been causing terror in that part of the world since the first crusade, for the valid reason that God exists. Which is now shot down often on Pistonheads of course as being a fairy tale smile
Er you do realise that Christians were there before Islam? Ever heard of the Byzantinium Empire?

The Don of Croy

5,975 posts

158 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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del mar said:
...Al Qaeda was the big terrorist threat for over a decade, carrying out atrocities either directly or inspiring others to carry them out in there name. Ohh the world was a safer place when we killed Bin Laden - we even made a film about it probably costing and taking millions...
There was a piece in the Times on Wednesday saying Al Queda have established a new training camp based in Sirte on the Libyan coast (hometown of dear departed friend Khadaffi). They now control >200kms of coastline - presumably all the better to export migrants from.

So, more good news.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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del mar said:
I did geography not history at school but am aware of the Reformation, Martin Luther and all that. It was a very difficult time for the Christian Church, but it probably needed to go through this change.

Of course not every Muslim in the world wants to kill me, I understand, that, but Islam is going through a difficult period in its history, there are obviously aspects of their beliefs that can be mis-interpreted, and people do. They need to go through the same difficult process that Christianity did, I just hope that Isis and the like is not the outcome.
I did history at school, and collage and uni. Love documentaries, don't read so many books now though.
You make some good points. As Western Europe moved forward with democracy and the middle classes and transformed into modern nations, the thrall of Christianity slowly lost it's grip. Islam would be further along that road now sadly if it wasn't for the constant meddling of imperial powers in the area destroying any decent secular attempt at leadership (Iran being the best example, check out the 1953 Iranian coup d'état) and backing to the hilt, the religious and extremists for over half a century. It's easy to look back and see how the constant short-sighted and greedy meddling has resulted in disaster after disaster, but for it to still be going on? The fires of madness are still being stoked to keep this nuttiness going for another 100 years.
Will anything change in KSA in the next 20 years? From stuff I see going on now...I am inclined to believe not.

Stickyfinger

8,429 posts

104 months

Friday 4th December 2015
quotequote all
Gandahar said:
Don't forget Christians have been causing terror in that part of the world since the first crusade, for the valid reason that God exists. Which is now shot down often on Pistonheads of course as being a fairy tale smile
You would of thought the world of Islam and its sick backward teachings may of moved on in 500 years don't you think ?


del mar

2,838 posts

198 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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I wouldn't want to be the Muslim who tries to instigate change.

One of the problems they have is that their book is the "Word of God". That is tricky to argue against, until God visits us again and explains that some verses have been mis-interpreted, who are we to go against it?

You have to give Mohammed some credit here, he wrote the book and told everybody it was the "Word of God" and that going against it and its teaching appeared to be in most cases punishable by death.

If I was clever enough I would start another Religion but this time the "Word of God" would say "Every petrol head must pay an annual tax to Del Mar to fund his next car purchase".

That was the "Word of God" - who dare doubt it ???

TLandCruiser

2,788 posts

197 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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Some politician on the BBC seems to think in 6 months isis will be destroyed after we starting bombing, surely he cant believe that himself!

maxxy5

771 posts

163 months

Friday 4th December 2015
quotequote all
Halb said:
I did history at school, and collage and uni. Love documentaries, don't read so many books now though.
You make some good points. As Western Europe moved forward with democracy and the middle classes and transformed into modern nations, the thrall of Christianity slowly lost it's grip. Islam would be further along that road now sadly if it wasn't for the constant meddling of imperial powers in the area destroying any decent secular attempt at leadership (Iran being the best example, check out the 1953 Iranian coup d'état) and backing to the hilt, the religious and extremists for over half a century. It's easy to look back and see how the constant short-sighted and greedy meddling has resulted in disaster after disaster, but for it to still be going on? The fires of madness are still being stoked to keep this nuttiness going for another 100 years.
Will anything change in KSA in the next 20 years? From stuff I see going on now...I am inclined to believe not.
I'd say it's very hard to predict where islam would be without western intervention. You can't extricate the Brits, Americans, French, Israelis and the Russians, however the Muslim Brotherhood, vital in forming modern jihadism right up to Bin Laden, emerged under a secular, modernising government in Egypt which was opposed to British intervention. Surely they would have fought against any government not considered sufficiently islamic and too 'Western', even if they were anti-western nationalists.

Modern jihadis like ISIS still invoke battles between the Byzantine Empire and the Turks, so there's always someone to blame.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Friday 4th December 2015
quotequote all
maxxy5 said:
I'd say it's very hard to predict where islam would be without western intervention. You can't extricate the Brits, Americans, French, Israelis and the Russians, however the Muslim Brotherhood, vital in forming modern jihadism right up to Bin Laden, emerged under a secular, modernising government in Egypt which was opposed to British intervention. Surely they would have fought against any government not considered sufficiently islamic and too 'Western', even if they were anti-western nationalists.
Modern jihadis like ISIS still invoke battles between the Byzantine Empire and the Turks, so there's always someone to blame.
Sure, I'm not laying the blame at any particular group. The renaissance and the slow climb out of superstition-run countries took a long time in Europe. Ultimately I think there was some luck there...and there were set-backs. Once commerce and stability got more common and people got educated, the fetters slowly eroded...though they are still strong for many. Who knows where the ME would be, it's just that the baby steps that were taken were always thwarted by interference. Imagine a ME where home grown democracies had grown and flourished 60 years years ago? But funding and creating fundamentalist groups was an easy way to keep the place in constant turmoil for easy pickings.

discusdave

412 posts

192 months

Friday 4th December 2015
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Russia is concerned about the increase in violations of Syrian airspace from NATO's drones without the authorization of Damascus.

Vlad: "So, Mr Erdogan, you aren't exploiting this conflict to buy half price Syrian oil, are you?"
Erdogan: "Most certainly not, that is absolutely slanderous."
Vlad: "Well....you won't mind if I do this then, will you?"

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=073_1449255632


it's getting warm.

https://youtu.be/uyaU5Xt7JRg

Edited by discusdave on Friday 4th December 20:53


Edited by discusdave on Friday 4th December 20:56

aeropilot

34,295 posts

226 months

Friday 4th December 2015
quotequote all
TLandCruiser said:
Some politician on the BBC seems to think in 6 months isis will be destroyed after we starting bombing, surely he cant believe that himself!
He probably still believes in Santa Claus as well......



discusdave

412 posts

192 months

Friday 4th December 2015
quotequote all
aeropilot said:
He probably still believes in Santa Claus as well......
i bet even the big guy will not be flying over syria or turkey anytime soon with the s-400 lurking hehe

AJS-

15,366 posts

235 months

Saturday 5th December 2015
quotequote all
Not convinced about the western imperialism argument. It's a factor but the (Muslim) Ottoman Empire had far more influence for a much longer time. It also had large chunks of the Balkans and you don't see Serbs or Croatians flying planes into buildings in Qatar.

The French conquests in North Africa seem to have come about as a result of the Barbary wars which were a European response to the slave trade which regularly took European slaves, over a million by most estimates from the Mediterranean and as far a field as England, Ireland and Holland.

Lastly the crusades, centuries before, were also a response to the rapid Muslim conquest of huge swathes of what were Christian territories, the oppression of Christians and the harassment of pilgrims.

This isn't to say it's all clear and simple "we're good they're bad" as history doesn't work that way. But weatern policy and mistakes are not the whole story.

Regarding reform of Islam I agree that this is the biggest part of the solution but as del mar says it's extremely difficult.

Not only is the Quran is the pure word of God but it is also a correction of previous revelations which became corrupted by Jews and Christians. So reforming it undermines it's whole reason for being.

I think it will ultimately happen one way or another. If not reform then a sort of distancing whereby it becomes a sort of cultural backdrop rather than a religion.

The point is that this process could take 2 or 3 centuries and there's every reason to believe it will be a turbulent period.

The question for the west is how involved we wish to be in this. My own answer is not very. However if we can help it in the right way then we should.

In a way the Muslim countries actually did this a long time ago when Christianity was more militant by preserving ancient texts and tolerating Jewish and Christian minorities to a greater extent than contemporary Europe did. Not a great extent by modern standards but some. Had they allowed the most brutal and backwards Christians a free run none of this would have happened.

Transmitter Man

4,253 posts

223 months

Saturday 5th December 2015
quotequote all
[quote=discusdave]Russia is concerned about the increase in violations of Syrian airspace from NATO's drones without the authorization of Damascus.

Vlad: "So, Mr Erdogan, you aren't exploiting this conflict to buy half price Syrian oil, are you?"
Erdogan: "Most certainly not, that is absolutely slanderous."
Vlad: "Well....you won't mind if I do this then, will you?"

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=073_1449255632


Dave,

When you look at the map of the region, you can see the routes of oil. "Oil convoys must go through PYD and Assad regime [territory]. If there is an oil trade, it is between Daesh and the Assad regime."

The PYD is the terrorist PKK organization’s Syrian affiliate and it controls most of the territory to the southwest of Turkey’s Syria border, as well as an enclave in the northwest. The Assad regime also controls some of the border in the northwest.

There 'is' cooperation between Daesh and the Syrian government forces against the Free Syrian Army (FSA).

So, either someone is telling porky's or there's an alternative route.

BTW, there is no alternative route and I'm no Erdogan fan, far from it.

Have you subscribed to this site: http://www.stopfake.org/en/tag/rt/

Phil

Edited by Transmitter Man on Saturday 5th December 08:41


Edited by Transmitter Man on Saturday 5th December 08:42

hidetheelephants

23,735 posts

192 months

Saturday 5th December 2015
quotequote all
el stovey said:
Oil is sold to tanker drivers at the refinery, who in turn sell it on to middlemen who sell it to Assad or other refineries in Syria for Syrians to use. We even see the tankers lined up in some of the coalition airstrike videos. IS are also supplying gas to Assad to keep all his cities powered by electricity with him paying for all the infrastructure to keep the gas flowing.

IS although described as a terrorist organisation, are more like a government. They make just as money from taxes from the locals in its territories, this might range from bribes and land rents to tax and extortion money from kidnapping and trafficking. They are also making millions from heroin smuggling and selling of antiquities and raiding bank reserves. They also get donations from all over the world.

They have considerable outgoings with fighters reportedly paid around £250 a week. They have to provide services to all the inhabitants of it's territories. Apparently they have reserves of up to a year if all revenue streams were to stop immediately.
So stopping Daesh is achievable within 12 months by giving Assad a free pass and selling/giving him oil to run the little of Syria he still rules in exchange for not buying it from Daesh and interdicting the smugglers? Then there's the issue of Daesh still having any functioning refining capacity or electricity to run it with; fixed plant isn't exactly difficult to find or put out of action. Other than handwringing and western exceptionalism is there a good reason this hasn't been done yet? Once the money tap runs out many of the foreign mercenarys will fk off and the indigenous Daesh might find sleeping at night difficult with the unwashed burning their house down while brandishing pitchforks and burning torches.

The silliness of CMD's 70k aside I don't recall anyone claiming that Biggles joining the fray over Syria would make anything other than a political difference; the additional sortie capacity is small, the only notable change is in the precision offered by the Brimstone missiles.

Vizsla

922 posts

123 months

Saturday 5th December 2015
quotequote all
del mar said:
If I was clever enough I would start another Religion but this time the "Word of God" would say "Every petrol head must pay an annual tax to Del Mar to fund his next car purchase".

That was the "Word of God" - who dare doubt it ???
Why not, it worked for Mormonism and Scientology! In fact it's counter-intuitive, the more ridiculous and nonsensical the garbage you conjure up out of thin air, the more the needy punters mop it up.

DelMarism, nice ring to it, you could be onto a winner there!

PS I should make my pitch in the good old US of A if I were you, home of the brave and the land of the gullible. wobble