Meanwhile, In Syria

[Transmitter Man]

Russia MoD denies any hospitals/schools were hit & blames “fabrications” in Gaziantep.

I forgot to add that Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) spokeswoman confirms that they always confirm with parties on both sides of the conflict that they are operating in the area.

Phil

Edited by Transmitter Man on Wednesday 17th February 08:09

[Liokault]

Transmitter Man said:

Russia MoD denies any hospitals/schools were hit & blames “fabrications” in Gaziantep.

Phil

Indeed. They also claim that in over 400 bombing raids, the civilian casualty figure is ZERO.

[irocfan]

Liokault said:

Transmitter Man said:

Russia MoD denies any hospitals/schools were hit & blames “fabrications” in Gaziantep.

Phil

Indeed. They also claim that in over 400 bombing raids, the civilian casualty figure is ZERO.

on the one hand I'd say BS that no civvies have been killed, on the other I'd also mention the fact that when the US (usually in Afghanistan) or Israelis conduct an airstrike arti bombardment there's normally a hospital been hit, or a wedding party, or a nursery, or a baby food factory, or a.... well you get the idea

[AJS-]

I think you also missed the fact that Saudi Arabia are getting involved in league with Turkey, and (despite the fact that we so often hear of unwelcome western 'interference' in the middle east) are asking for American help to remove Assad.

Then replace him with 'moderates' which seem to include al-Quaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood.

The one thing that everyone else seems to agree on is the necessity of defeating ISIS.

For the west, ISIS has become a proxy for all Islamic extremism and terrorism. For the MB and others seeking to establish a Caliphate they are just competition. For Arab governments they are a threat to their own legitimacy, because if successfully established many Muslims would owe their first allegiance to the Caliph rather than to their country as currently established.

[Liokault]

irocfan said:

Liokault said:

Transmitter Man said:

Russia MoD denies any hospitals/schools were hit & blames “fabrications” in Gaziantep.

Phil

Indeed. They also claim that in over 400 bombing raids, the civilian casualty figure is ZERO.

on the one hand I'd say BS that no civvies have been killed, on the other I'd also mention the fact that when the US (usually in Afghanistan) or Israelis conduct an airstrike arti bombardment there's normally a hospital been hit, or a wedding party, or a nursery, or a baby food factory, or a.... well you get the idea

Indeed, but the "West" generally admits that on occasion a dropped bomb hits a civ.

[Stickyfinger]

Ah come on Guys, Russia still says there was NOT a mass starvation in the Ukraine in 1932/3, did not kill masses of Polish Officers and etc etc.

History/truth in Russia has never really been their strong point has it ?

[Transmitter Man]

irocfan said:

on the one hand I'd say BS that no civvies have been killed, on the other I'd also mention the fact that when the US (usually in Afghanistan) or Israelis conduct an airstrike arti bombardment there's normally a hospital been hit, or a wedding party, or a nursery, or a baby food factory, or a.... well you get the idea

IROC,

Are you not generalising somewhat trying to make Israel & the US equal in atrocities to that of Putin.

Some hospital hit numbers from both would be nice to backup your claim.

I did not have you in the same room as Quantum and co and considered you were pretty much neutral in your past observations.

Phil

[Transmitter Man]

AJS- said:

I think you also missed the fact that Saudi Arabia are getting involved in league with Turkey, and (despite the fact that we so often hear of unwelcome western 'interference' in the middle east) are asking for American help to remove Assad.

Then replace him with 'moderates' which seem to include al-Quaeda and the Muslim Brotherhood.

The one thing that everyone else seems to agree on is the necessity of defeating ISIS.

For the west, ISIS has become a proxy for all Islamic extremism and terrorism. For the MB and others seeking to establish a Caliphate they are just competition. For Arab governments they are a threat to their own legitimacy, because if successfully established many Muslims would owe their first allegiance to the Caliph rather than to their country as currently established.

FWIW, and I'm no fan but Obama won the hot seat on the promise of getting US soldiers out of the NE and to not get involved in any more ME conflicts.

He stuck to his promise fairly well in the eyes of the US people regardless of what's happening under the table or via third parties.

Phil

[Transmitter Man]

Russia is learning from Assad--how to: 1.) attack hospitals; and 2.) deny that's a war crime bit.

He invented (or at least perfected) the deny tactic. Crimea didn't happen, MH17 never existed...etc

It will be hard for Putin to convince the world there are "no" Russians in Syria as there are "none" in Ukraine.

Phil

[The Don of Croy]

rich85uk said:

Saudi Arabia want an oil/gas pipeline to go through Syria to directly supply Europe, Russia desperately do not want this with Europe being their biggest customer and this will not happen while Assad remains in power.

SA and some other countries who will benefit from this are supplying and training 'moderate' rebels with everything they need, Russia are doing everything it can to wipe out any rebel force

Thanks for that.

Have Turkey signed up for this pipeline? Is the route finalised?

[Stickyfinger]

Transmitter Man said:

Russia is learning from Assad--how to: 1.) attack hospitals; and 2.) deny that's a war crime bit.

He invented (or at least perfected) the deny tactic. Crimea didn't happen, MH17 never existed...etc

It will be hard for Putin to convince the world there are "no" Russians in Syria as there are "none" in Ukraine.

Phil

LOL, you should check out some of the Russian "History" books, there is a reason Russians believe in and support Putin in massive numbers.

[scherzkeks]

AJS- said:

The one thing that everyone else seems to agree on is the necessity of defeating ISIS.
.

I've long suspected ISIS is being used by the United States in order to drive Assad from power. I think it is now quite transparent and accepted at this point.

When one considers the destruction and death this group has left in its wake, it is rather mind boggling to contemplate what sorts of sociopaths we have as leaders. To say they agree that defeating them is necessary is to excuse their cynical support for the group as a means to an end.

[Adam Ansel]

scherzkeks said:

I've long suspected ISIS is being used by the United States in order to drive Assad from power. I think it is quite transparent at this point.

When one considers the destruction and death this group has left in its wake, it is rather mind boggling to contemplate what sorts of sociopaths we have as leaders. To say they agree that defeating them is necessary is to excuse their cynical support for the group as a means to an end.

[scherzkeks]

Adam Ansel said:

Internet memes

Reality:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/wp-content/uploads/20...

[AJS-]

scherzkeks said:

AJS- said:

The one thing that everyone else seems to agree on is the necessity of defeating ISIS.
.

I've long suspected ISIS is being used by the United States in order to drive Assad from power. I think it is now quite transparent and accepted at this point.

When one considers the destruction and death this group has left in its wake, it is rather mind boggling to contemplate what sorts of sociopaths we have as leaders. To say they agree that defeating them is necessary is to excuse their cynical support for the group as a means to an end.

What's not quite so clear is why they want to remove Assad so badly? Does the US really want a pipeline to Europe that badly? Dig at Russia? Toeing the Saudi line?

I've long suspected that the US hasn't really got a clue what it's doing and listens to all sorts of bad advice. On the other hand if Obama had some Islamist sympathies himself I can't imagine he would have acted very differently.

[scherzkeks]

AJS- said:

What's not quite so clear is why they want to remove Assad so badly? Does the US really want a pipeline to Europe that badly? Dig at Russia? Toeing the Saudi line?

I've long suspected that the US hasn't really got a clue what it's doing and listens to all sorts of bad advice. On the other hand if Obama had some Islamist sympathies himself I can't imagine he would have acted very differently.

As I understand it, it is to cement the possibility of the proposed Quatar-Turkey pipeline, rather than the Iran-Iraq-Syria pipeline.

So, petrochemical resource interests, it seems. Or, ahem, spreading freedom.

[AJS-]

Not sure why you would rather have that pipeline in control of al-quaeda though?

[scherzkeks]

AJS- said:

Not sure why you would rather have that pipeline in control of al-quaeda though?

Not sure what you mean. I don't see how Al Quaeda would actually control anything.

“A battle is raging over whether pipelines will go toward Europe from east to west, from Iran and Iraq to the Mediterranean coast of Syria, or take a more northbound route from Qatar and Saudi Arabia via Syria and Turkey. Having realized that the stalled Nabucco pipeline, and indeed the entire Southern Corridor, are backed up only by Azerbaijan’s reserves and can never equal Russian supplies to Europe or thwart the construction of the South Stream, the West is in a hurry to replace them with resources from the Persian Gulf. Syria ends up being a key link in this chain, and it leans in favor of Iran and Russia; thus it was decided in the Western capitals that its regime needs to change."

http://www.mintpressnews.com/migrant-crisis-syria-...

Seems no surprise that the Turks and Saudis are sending in the troops now that their moderate terrorists are on the ropes.

Edited by scherzkeks on Wednesday 17th February 09:53

[irocfan]

Transmitter Man said:

irocfan said:

on the one hand I'd say BS that no civvies have been killed, on the other I'd also mention the fact that when the US (usually in Afghanistan) or Israelis conduct an airstrike arti bombardment there's normally a hospital been hit, or a wedding party, or a nursery, or a baby food factory, or a.... well you get the idea

IROC,

Are you not generalising somewhat trying to make Israel & the US equal in atrocities to that of Putin.

Some hospital hit numbers from both would be nice to backup your claim.

I did not have you in the same room as Quantum and co and considered you were pretty much neutral in your past observations.

Phil

Hi Phil - I guess that I should make a little addendum here... do I think that the Russians have hit (possibly even targeted) hospitals? YES! However it's at that point where things get a little murky again. I was only stating the US/Israeli 'incidents' to show that what is reported isn't necessarily the whole truth (actually it's quite possibly not even on nodding terms with the truth). You are correct in as much as 'the West' does tend to fess-up if they've fked up - doesn't stop the obligatory pictures of a baby's nappy/child's shoe/baby food/etc being used to try and blacken the name with the locals (and then the vulpine press).

The dis/advantage the Russians have is they'll flat out deny everything and then give up caring what people think anyway. The problem with this approach from our perspective is the whole 'cry wolf' scenario so they'll be accused even if they're innocent (even if it's 75% of the time). The other issue is that the 'bad guys' will not hesitate to use hospitals, nurseries, schools etc to hide hardware and personnel (even munitions 'factories') making the whole 'separating legitimate targets' even harder

[AJS-]

scherzkeks said:

Not sure what you mean. I don't see how Al Quaeda would actually control anything.

“A battle is raging over whether pipelines will go toward Europe from east to west, from Iran and Iraq to the Mediterranean coast of Syria, or take a more northbound route from Qatar and Saudi Arabia via Syria and Turkey. Having realized that the stalled Nabucco pipeline, and indeed the entire Southern Corridor, are backed up only by Azerbaijan’s reserves and can never equal Russian supplies to Europe or thwart the construction of the South Stream, the West is in a hurry to replace them with resources from the Persian Gulf. Syria ends up being a key link in this chain, and it leans in favor of Iran and Russia; thus it was decided in the Western capitals that its regime needs to change."

http://www.mintpressnews.com/migrant-crisis-syria-...

Seems no surprise that the Turks and Saudis are sending in the troops now that their moderate terrorists are on the ropes.

Edited by scherzkeks on Wednesday 17th February 09:53

What else would happen? Every country in the region where "democracy" has been tried has voted for fundamentalism in one form or another. Maybe not al-Quaeda in name but Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, along Sunni/Shia lines in Iraq almost to the decimal point etc.

Not that I believe Arabs or Muslims are incapable of functioning in free societies but the record isn't good. IMO the focus on elections as the be all and end all of democracy is folly. You need democratic institutions and a democratic mentality first and that doesn't exist in Syria.

It's fine to overthrow Assad but like Hussein or Gaddafi it doesn't guarantee a stable, liberal society will follow.

If it really is all just about building a pipeline and hoping the gas keeps flowing from beneath the barbarous dictatorships up above then it's short sighted in the extreme. I don't really know the economics of building, maintaining and defending a few thousand miles of gas pipeline but I can be pretty sure it would be easier and cheaper in the long run with a stable democracy above than with either a brutal Islamist regime or an Arab nationalist thug.