Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
Transmitter Man said:
Octoposse said:
Well, somehow Russia has ended up allied with the elected, essentially secular, government of Syria and aiming to meet the aspirations of the Kurdish people for their own state.
Meanwhile the leading liberal democracies of Western Europe have ended up supporting Jihadists, giving Turkey a blank cheque to do whatever it takes to crush the Kurds, and working towards the creation of Saudi client states across the region. Oh yes, and prolonging the war in Syria for another decade, with predictable results for the Syrian people and unpredictable for the rest of the world.
OP,Meanwhile the leading liberal democracies of Western Europe have ended up supporting Jihadists, giving Turkey a blank cheque to do whatever it takes to crush the Kurds, and working towards the creation of Saudi client states across the region. Oh yes, and prolonging the war in Syria for another decade, with predictable results for the Syrian people and unpredictable for the rest of the world.
People keep mentioned the non-fact of Assad's secular state.
This was I can assure you only on the outside and for the image of Syria to the outside world.
His Alawite section, a Shia offshoot are but a small minority in the country and only had 'his own' in charge of the whole country, that is bar a few Sunni Arabs who became wealthy from doing business with the regime.
Assad learned a lot from his father and the many atrocities he brought on the Syrian people.
Since the Iran Iraq war when Syria sided with Iran they have been supported by them and many would say manipulated - they need a lifeline to their proxy Hezbollah. Since Assad's fathers time Syria has been one of Russia's best arms customers. Both Iran & Russia have these reason to keep the status quo.
I was with two Syrian refugees yesterday evening here in Cyprus having coffee. They are both from Deraa in the south of the country where this conflict kicked off. One has a cousin of schoolboy age who got injured from a barrel bomb dropped by an Assad helicopter. He was taken by locals and with the assistance of the UN into Israel for treatment. They both said they would rather be ruled by Israel than Assad even though when they were at school they were taught that they were the great Satan on their doorstep just across the border.
What has been puzzling me and possibly one or two others here is just whether you're pro Putin or anti-west and for what reason. Why do you close your eyes to the atrocities carried out by this dictator?
Maybe you have some Russian blood in your family tree.
All my neighbors here are Russian aside from one Lebanese and quite simply they are blind to how Putin is taking their own country back to the bad old days.
Putin is an example of the height of hypocrisy when he rants about inviolate national sovereignty.
We live in the times of the short aberration known as the rise and fall of Vlad the last invader!
Phil
Edited by Transmitter Man on Friday 19th February 05:01
There is no simple answer but in the case of Syria it was Assad that Started firing live ammunition on a street demonstration in Deraa - no water cannon, no tear gas, just bullets.
The same story cannot be said for Russia's invasion of Ukraine despite all the BS that came out of the Russian Ministry of Disinformation!
Phil
The same story cannot be said for Russia's invasion of Ukraine despite all the BS that came out of the Russian Ministry of Disinformation!
Phil
Edited by Transmitter Man on Friday 19th February 07:57
QuantumTokoloshi said:
I guess if it is possible to dubiously connect Saddam H to Al Qaeda, pre Iraq invasion, then connecting the YPG to Syrian government is entirely achievable, if you repeat the lie enough times, with a tame media.
Nail meet hammer. A funny aside, I was poking around Axel Springer the other day and came across this under the organization's "guiding principles":
"Die Unterstützung des transatlantischen Bündnisses und die Solidarität in der freiheitlichen Wertegemeinschaft mit den Vereinigten Staaten von Amerika."
Quite direct, even by German standards.
Edited by scherzkeks on Friday 19th February 09:19
(Typing on a phone so can't reply as fully as I'd like).
Assad did want to reform and modernise. Unfortunately his father had build a power structure based on competing security apparatuses with economic interest, that whilst brilliant at retaining power, made reform almost impossible. Stick your head above the parapet, survive/negotiate with one security organisation, they'll be another one along in a minute to drag you away.
It was never going to be easy in Syria, and we're far too close to events to determine whether a more powerful leader than Assad could have pulled change off, or whether he did as well as anyone could, given what he inherited.
Be that as it may, step back and see the side WE have chosen: against an early end to full scale war; against an independent Kurdistan; in favour of Saudi expansionism; in unnecessary confrontation with Russia.
As for Crimea, again I see we have chosen a side that ignored the principle of self determination of peoples, and against a negotiated peace that was wide open to be had when the death toll was exactly one. And, again, an entirely unnecessary confrontation with Russia. Ages ago I wrote obliquely about my experience of two wars - I'll dig it out when I'm home next week.
Assad did want to reform and modernise. Unfortunately his father had build a power structure based on competing security apparatuses with economic interest, that whilst brilliant at retaining power, made reform almost impossible. Stick your head above the parapet, survive/negotiate with one security organisation, they'll be another one along in a minute to drag you away.
It was never going to be easy in Syria, and we're far too close to events to determine whether a more powerful leader than Assad could have pulled change off, or whether he did as well as anyone could, given what he inherited.
Be that as it may, step back and see the side WE have chosen: against an early end to full scale war; against an independent Kurdistan; in favour of Saudi expansionism; in unnecessary confrontation with Russia.
As for Crimea, again I see we have chosen a side that ignored the principle of self determination of peoples, and against a negotiated peace that was wide open to be had when the death toll was exactly one. And, again, an entirely unnecessary confrontation with Russia. Ages ago I wrote obliquely about my experience of two wars - I'll dig it out when I'm home next week.
so it appears that Vlad is smarter than the rest.. erodogen's piss must be boiling.. 
..
There is a serious effort at reconciliation underway in Syria. The alternative is too terrible to contemplate, because a war until a victorious conclusion could mean a war until the last Syrian is dead. The US threatens a “Plan B”, which entails a division of Syria. The opposition headquarters in Saudi Arabia is trying to coordinate the militants’ actions, but it will appear that much will depend on the kurbashi–the field commanders. Russian army representatives are working with them right now. More and more units, which often amount to irregular banditry, are joining the ceasefire regime.
One of the field commanders from the anti-Assad coalition faxed me the blank document which he has to sign if he is not to be bombed anymore. This is the first time this document, on the basis of which the ceasefire will be launched, is being published.
Application to join the ceasefire regime.
I, the commander of ________ unit, located _________ as indicated on the attached map,
-am ready to join the process of resolving the armed conflict within the Syrian Arab Republic,
-guarantee that my unit will, as of March 1, cease firing on government forces, and will not use either artillery weapons or small arms,
-will permit observers from the control group to monitor the ceasefire
-will allow free access of humanitarian aid for the civilian population
Syrian Arab Republic forces will, as of March 1, cease firing on my unit and, as long as the ceasefire regime is in effect, my unit will not be subjected to Russian and Syrian airstrikes.
Government entities will not interfere with humanitarian aid deliveries into areas controlled by my unit.
The representatives of my unit will take part in the joint ceasefire center activities.
Should disagreements arise, I promise to report them to the joint ceasefire center.
I am attaching a map of my unit disposition.
Field Commander ______
followed by
First Russian peacekeepers arrive in Syria
On Wednesday, Russian Ministry of Defense official representative Igor Konashenkov described Russian Army’s new phase of operations in Syria.
As reported earlier, the Ceasefire Coordinating Center began work at the Hmeimim airbase pursuant to the Russian-US agreement.
According to Konashenkov, more than 50 officers with peacekeeping experience have been detailed to the new center. They have already accepted dozens of reports and telephone calls from local authorities and armed formations who desire to join the ceasefire. Thanks to their intermediation, several armistice agreements have already been signed with a number of formations in northern Latakia province. The officers began to send humanitarian aid to the areas freed from the terrorists which facilitates the return of refugees from other regions and countries.
–The overwhelming majority of Russian officers at the center have considerable peacekeeping experience under UN aegis and in other peacekeeping formats, Konashenkov said, and then advised the Pentagon spokesman, Mr. Cook, to lower his level of aggression, acquire greater modesty and professionalism, and focus on the actions of the service personnel.
In recent days, Mr. Cook for some reason undertook the functions of a diplomat and said that the Syria ceasefire is a test for the Russian authorities.
–I’ll say right from the start: we intend to and, what’s more, we began to implement specific and complicated practical aspects of reconciliation on Syria’s territory. We expect that our US partners will shift from words to actions as soon as possible, Konashenkov added.
so there we have it
it will all be over by Christmas.. 
..There is a serious effort at reconciliation underway in Syria. The alternative is too terrible to contemplate, because a war until a victorious conclusion could mean a war until the last Syrian is dead. The US threatens a “Plan B”, which entails a division of Syria. The opposition headquarters in Saudi Arabia is trying to coordinate the militants’ actions, but it will appear that much will depend on the kurbashi–the field commanders. Russian army representatives are working with them right now. More and more units, which often amount to irregular banditry, are joining the ceasefire regime.
One of the field commanders from the anti-Assad coalition faxed me the blank document which he has to sign if he is not to be bombed anymore. This is the first time this document, on the basis of which the ceasefire will be launched, is being published.
Application to join the ceasefire regime.
I, the commander of ________ unit, located _________ as indicated on the attached map,
-am ready to join the process of resolving the armed conflict within the Syrian Arab Republic,
-guarantee that my unit will, as of March 1, cease firing on government forces, and will not use either artillery weapons or small arms,
-will permit observers from the control group to monitor the ceasefire
-will allow free access of humanitarian aid for the civilian population
Syrian Arab Republic forces will, as of March 1, cease firing on my unit and, as long as the ceasefire regime is in effect, my unit will not be subjected to Russian and Syrian airstrikes.
Government entities will not interfere with humanitarian aid deliveries into areas controlled by my unit.
The representatives of my unit will take part in the joint ceasefire center activities.
Should disagreements arise, I promise to report them to the joint ceasefire center.
I am attaching a map of my unit disposition.
Field Commander ______
followed by
First Russian peacekeepers arrive in Syria
On Wednesday, Russian Ministry of Defense official representative Igor Konashenkov described Russian Army’s new phase of operations in Syria.
As reported earlier, the Ceasefire Coordinating Center began work at the Hmeimim airbase pursuant to the Russian-US agreement.
According to Konashenkov, more than 50 officers with peacekeeping experience have been detailed to the new center. They have already accepted dozens of reports and telephone calls from local authorities and armed formations who desire to join the ceasefire. Thanks to their intermediation, several armistice agreements have already been signed with a number of formations in northern Latakia province. The officers began to send humanitarian aid to the areas freed from the terrorists which facilitates the return of refugees from other regions and countries.
–The overwhelming majority of Russian officers at the center have considerable peacekeeping experience under UN aegis and in other peacekeeping formats, Konashenkov said, and then advised the Pentagon spokesman, Mr. Cook, to lower his level of aggression, acquire greater modesty and professionalism, and focus on the actions of the service personnel.
In recent days, Mr. Cook for some reason undertook the functions of a diplomat and said that the Syria ceasefire is a test for the Russian authorities.
–I’ll say right from the start: we intend to and, what’s more, we began to implement specific and complicated practical aspects of reconciliation on Syria’s territory. We expect that our US partners will shift from words to actions as soon as possible, Konashenkov added.
so there we have it
it will all be over by Christmas.. You know the situation when there's someone trying to make a big deal of a disagreement and are doing everything they can to get their own way without admitting their true motivations? And then there's that person who can see straight through it all and at every opportunity is frustrating that person by hindering their attempts, pushing them to reveal their true colours and making them look ridiculous? That's what the Russians are doing here, so very, very clever.
That's not saying the Russians are good as gold but please could the Americans learn to play the game, at least try to appear pleased at the prospect of a ceasefire and an attempt at diplomatic aolution, even though they don't trust the Russians one bit and know that the type of solution this allows for is not likely to be one that the Americans wanted.
A strange old world, when the dictator, warmonger, bond villian, homo erotic hero is the person that gets the chemical weapons issue peacefully resolved, and is the leader in bringing together an actual peace process.
18 months of US and Turkish intervention and zero progress besides prolonging the war. 6 months of Russian intervention, a peace process in sight, with the government of Syria stabilised.
It lays bare, who actually wanted a resolution and who did not.
Edrogan must be spitting feathers.
18 months of US and Turkish intervention and zero progress besides prolonging the war. 6 months of Russian intervention, a peace process in sight, with the government of Syria stabilised.
It lays bare, who actually wanted a resolution and who did not.
Edrogan must be spitting feathers.
Edrogan is going to like this even less.
It is no fun when your enemies supply ATGM missiles, it even less fun when your allies do it.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/02/25/russ...
It is no fun when your enemies supply ATGM missiles, it even less fun when your allies do it.
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/02/25/russ...
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Friday 26th February 10:06
anonymous said:
[redacted]
The game up to this point has been to overthrow anyone standing in the way of access to petrochemical resources. What they don't like is that the game has changed in Syria, as they are faced with confronting a state that now has the capability to defend itself.
"There is a serious effort at reconciliation underway in Syria."
Dave,
Believe me, there is no serious effort.
There is no effort.
Putin will keep on bombing saying he is bombing AQ/IS when he will continue to bomb the legitamate Syrian opposition.
Feel free to watch 'your' favorite social media feeds and see if I'm wrong, starting tomorrow.
Phil
Dave,
Believe me, there is no serious effort.
There is no effort.
Putin will keep on bombing saying he is bombing AQ/IS when he will continue to bomb the legitamate Syrian opposition.
Feel free to watch 'your' favorite social media feeds and see if I'm wrong, starting tomorrow.
Phil
I
It is called actually trying to bring a resolution, not overthrow a government. See Libya and Iraq for those successes.
Transmitter Man said:
"There is a serious effort at reconciliation underway in Syria."
Dave,
Believe me, there is no serious effort.
There is no effort.
Putin will keep on bombing saying he is bombing AQ/IS when he will continue to bomb the legitamate Syrian opposition.
Feel free to watch 'your' favorite social media feeds and see if I'm wrong, starting tomorrow.
Phil
Legitimate opposition? Al Qaeda and / or Al Nusra are certainly an opposition, and terrorists, so a continued campaign against them sounds reasonable.Dave,
Believe me, there is no serious effort.
There is no effort.
Putin will keep on bombing saying he is bombing AQ/IS when he will continue to bomb the legitamate Syrian opposition.
Feel free to watch 'your' favorite social media feeds and see if I'm wrong, starting tomorrow.
Phil
It is called actually trying to bring a resolution, not overthrow a government. See Libya and Iraq for those successes.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Legitimate opposition? Al Qaeda and / or Al Nusra are certainly an opposition, and terrorists, so a continued campaign against them sounds reasonable.
It is called actually trying to bring a resolution, not overthrow a government. See Libya and Iraq for those successes.
...and Sadaam walking into Kuwait City?It is called actually trying to bring a resolution, not overthrow a government. See Libya and Iraq for those successes.
Phil
Transmitter Man said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Legitimate opposition? Al Qaeda and / or Al Nusra are certainly an opposition, and terrorists, so a continued campaign against them sounds reasonable.
It is called actually trying to bring a resolution, not overthrow a government. See Libya and Iraq for those successes.
...and Sadaam walking into Kuwait City?It is called actually trying to bring a resolution, not overthrow a government. See Libya and Iraq for those successes.
Phil
Does that situation sound familiar at all?
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Saturday 27th February 12:39
Transmitter Man said:
"There is a serious effort at reconciliation underway in Syria."
Dave,
Believe me, there is no serious effort.
There is no effort.
Putin will keep on bombing saying he is bombing AQ/IS when he will continue to bomb the legitamate Syrian opposition.
Feel free to watch 'your' favorite social media feeds and see if I'm wrong, starting tomorrow.
Phil
not just Putin it seams... eh PhilDave,
Believe me, there is no serious effort.
There is no effort.
Putin will keep on bombing saying he is bombing AQ/IS when he will continue to bomb the legitamate Syrian opposition.
Feel free to watch 'your' favorite social media feeds and see if I'm wrong, starting tomorrow.
Phil
The Russian Defense Ministry has also provided the US military with its current situation map in Syria.
“To exchange information with US colleagues, we’ve developed a map of the situation on the ground in Syria, and this map has been given to the US side during bilateral consultations on February 26, and also via military and diplomatic channels. On this map, one can see the regions where the peace process is on, and also the areas controlled by IS, Al-Nusra, or other armed groups,” Rudskoy said.
The Syria truce coordinating center has detected shelling of residential areas in Damascus carried out by terror groups, said Sergey Kuralenko, the head of the center launched by Moscow at Khemim airbase earlier in the week.
Over 20 blasts were registered earlier Saturday over a period of five hours, Kuralenko said.
The information on the shelling was immediately passed to the US coordination center in Amman
Russia’s military have stopped all airstrikes on those areas and armed groups which joined the ceasefire in Syria, the General Staff has said at a briefing.
"Russia has fully stopped carrying out airstrikes in the green zone - those areas and armed units that have sent us requests for a ceasefire," the chief of the main operations department of the Russian General Staff, Sergey Rudskoy, has told reporters.
Transmitter Man said:
"There is a serious effort at reconciliation underway in Syria."
Dave,
Believe me, there is no serious effort.
There is no effort.
Putin will keep on bombing saying he is bombing AQ/IS when he will continue to bomb the legitamate Syrian opposition.
Feel free to watch 'your' favorite social media feeds and see if I'm wrong, starting tomorrow.
Phil
Since when did the UN appoint you to decide which armed uprising was a legitimate opposition and which one was a terrorist organisation?Dave,
Believe me, there is no serious effort.
There is no effort.
Putin will keep on bombing saying he is bombing AQ/IS when he will continue to bomb the legitamate Syrian opposition.
Feel free to watch 'your' favorite social media feeds and see if I'm wrong, starting tomorrow.
Phil
Transmitter Man said:
So what are your thoughts and feelings then Peter?
Phil
or this ?
or this ?
Seems Syria is not the only government or has government officials who overreact to protests, resulting in deaths. Even liberal democracies struggle to peaceably contain insurrection, especially violent insurrection.
Should we have supported the violent overthrow of the US government, UK government or even Irish government because of it?
It does not excuse it at all, but I am sure the inhabitants of Daraa would much rather be back there now, than where they are now.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 28th February 11:21
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