Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
skyrover said:
snorky782 said:
Tbh, this thread is going to get locked because you lot are just going to bang on and on and on about every Muslim and the whole of Islam being terrorists and a religion of terror, which is simply wrong. You won't listen to reason and effectively are just different sides of the same coin with your extreme views.
A total misrepresentation.The facts are the facts. Muslims are people like anyone else, largely with a similar good/bad cross section as the rest of society. The problem lies in Mohammed's message, which is fundamentally aggressive and intolerant. This can not be denied.
The choice lies with the interpreter and the blame largely on the teachers... mosques, schools etc. How absolutely do you really want to implement the Quran's message?
This is the reason why you have second and third generation, educated and wealthy descendants of immigrants running off to join groups like ISIS. When you are encouraged by the people whom you respect the most... teacher, friends and family and believe you are doing the "right thing", it can be a powerful factor in even the most benevolent individuals judgement.
Edited by skyrover on Thursday 28th July 18:19
Churches don't teach it literally, nor do Mospques teach the Koran literally despite what you think. However, some go further and take it more literally, just like the bible-bashing lot in the Deep South of the USA. Others go to the extreme and follow it to the letter, just as whacko nutjobs do with the Bible.
If radicalisation was as widespread as you claim, then why aren't we all dead? There are approximately 1750 mosques in the UK with thousands attending them.
Your argument wil always fall over, as you claim something is happening across the board, but in reality is a huge minority where it's actually happening. And please don't trot out the debunked stats so loved of Sam All
Do you intend to discuss Syria?
Why does every single thread on these topics degenerate into this banal and repetetive stating of the bleeding obvious?
Does anybody think that all Muslims are terrorists? Has anyone said that? I didn't see it.
Does anyone not get the distinction between Muslims and Islam?
To be very clear, Islam is the religion. Muslims are the people.
Islam - Religion.
Muslims - People who follow Islam.
I'm fairly sure that those still attempting to blur this extremely obvious line are simply trying to make this into a different debate.
Nobody in their right mind would say that over a billion people are all terrorists.
Equally I don't believe that anyone could read the koran and understand it's place in Islam, without getting a sense that it throws up certain problems for a modern western society.
That is nothing to do with race. It doesn't say anything at all about the actions or views of "all Muslims." It's nothing to do with foreigners. It's nothing to do with a chauvanistic dislike of anything unfamilar. It is simply what it is.
Does anybody think that all Muslims are terrorists? Has anyone said that? I didn't see it.
Does anyone not get the distinction between Muslims and Islam?
To be very clear, Islam is the religion. Muslims are the people.
Islam - Religion.
Muslims - People who follow Islam.
I'm fairly sure that those still attempting to blur this extremely obvious line are simply trying to make this into a different debate.
Nobody in their right mind would say that over a billion people are all terrorists.
Equally I don't believe that anyone could read the koran and understand it's place in Islam, without getting a sense that it throws up certain problems for a modern western society.
That is nothing to do with race. It doesn't say anything at all about the actions or views of "all Muslims." It's nothing to do with foreigners. It's nothing to do with a chauvanistic dislike of anything unfamilar. It is simply what it is.
snorky782 said:
It isn't taken literally, just as The Bible isn't. Please don't bang on about the old vs New Testament argument. The most famous quotes in every day use are from The Old Testament.
I haven't mentioned the bible, but if you really want to go down that path, where are all the Christian suicide bombers?snorky782 said:
Churches don't teach it literally, nor do Mospques teach the Koran literally despite what you think. However, some go further and take it more literally, just like the bible-bashing lot in the Deep South of the USA. Others go to the extreme and follow it to the letter, just as whacko nutjobs do with the Bible.
Folks like the "duck dynasty" lot?... infinitely preferable to ISIS if you ask me.snorky782 said:
If radicalisation was as widespread as you claim, then why aren't we all dead? There are approximately 1750 mosques in the UK with thousands attending them.
Because as I previously mentioned, Muslims are people with a similar cross section of good/bad as the rest of society. The problem comes from when good people are led to believe they are doing the "right thing"snorky782 said:
Your argument wil always fall over, as you claim something is happening across the board, but in reality is a huge minority where it's actually happening. And please don't trot out the debunked stats so loved of Sam All
1274 Islamic attacks in 50 countries, in which 11774 people were killed and 14303 injured so far in 2016.snorky782 said:
Do you intend to discuss Syria?
Yes... but eventually we will get back to the root cause again.Of course if you are up for talking about the great geopolitical chess match (side show) between Russia, Nato, the US, and Turkey, than yes.
Edited by skyrover on Thursday 28th July 19:25
snorky782 said:
skyrover said:
snorky782 said:
Tbh, this thread is going to get locked because you lot are just going to bang on and on and on about every Muslim and the whole of Islam being terrorists and a religion of terror, which is simply wrong. You won't listen to reason and effectively are just different sides of the same coin with your extreme views.
A total misrepresentation.The facts are the facts. Muslims are people like anyone else, largely with a similar good/bad cross section as the rest of society. The problem lies in Mohammed's message, which is fundamentally aggressive and intolerant. This can not be denied.
The choice lies with the interpreter and the blame largely on the teachers... mosques, schools etc. How absolutely do you really want to implement the Quran's message?
This is the reason why you have second and third generation, educated and wealthy descendants of immigrants running off to join groups like ISIS. When you are encouraged by the people whom you respect the most... teacher, friends and family and believe you are doing the "right thing", it can be a powerful factor in even the most benevolent individuals judgement.
Edited by skyrover on Thursday 28th July 18:19
Churches don't teach it literally, nor do Mospques teach the Koran literally despite what you think. However, some go further and take it more literally, just like the bible-bashing lot in the Deep South of the USA. Others go to the extreme and follow it to the letter, just as whacko nutjobs do with the Bible.
If radicalisation was as widespread as you claim, then why aren't we all dead? There are approximately 1750 mosques in the UK with thousands attending them.
Your argument wil always fall over, as you claim something is happening across the board, but in reality is a huge minority where it's actually happening. And please don't trot out the debunked stats so loved of Sam All
Do you intend to discuss Syria?
andymc said:
snorky782 said:
skyrover said:
snorky782 said:
Tbh, this thread is going to get locked because you lot are just going to bang on and on and on about every Muslim and the whole of Islam being terrorists and a religion of terror, which is simply wrong. You won't listen to reason and effectively are just different sides of the same coin with your extreme views.
A total misrepresentation.The facts are the facts. Muslims are people like anyone else, largely with a similar good/bad cross section as the rest of society. The problem lies in Mohammed's message, which is fundamentally aggressive and intolerant. This can not be denied.
The choice lies with the interpreter and the blame largely on the teachers... mosques, schools etc. How absolutely do you really want to implement the Quran's message?
This is the reason why you have second and third generation, educated and wealthy descendants of immigrants running off to join groups like ISIS. When you are encouraged by the people whom you respect the most... teacher, friends and family and believe you are doing the "right thing", it can be a powerful factor in even the most benevolent individuals judgement.
Edited by skyrover on Thursday 28th July 18:19
Churches don't teach it literally, nor do Mospques teach the Koran literally despite what you think. However, some go further and take it more literally, just like the bible-bashing lot in the Deep South of the USA. Others go to the extreme and follow it to the letter, just as whacko nutjobs do with the Bible.
If radicalisation was as widespread as you claim, then why aren't we all dead? There are approximately 1750 mosques in the UK with thousands attending them.
Your argument wil always fall over, as you claim something is happening across the board, but in reality is a huge minority where it's actually happening. And please don't trot out the debunked stats so loved of Sam All
Do you intend to discuss Syria?
The extremists are those in CAR and parts of India committing genocide in the name of Christianlty, or closer to home, albeit 20 years ago, the ethnic cleansers of the Balkans. And before anyone posts it, I know Muslims ethnic cleansed too, but at a much lower rate and in any event that supports my arfpgument about them being nutters too.
skyrover said:
snorky782 said:
It isn't taken literally, just as The Bible isn't. Please don't bang on about the old vs New Testament argument. The most famous quotes in every day use are from The Old Testament.
I haven't mentioned the bible, but if you really want to go down that path, where are all the Christian suicide bombers?snorky782 said:
Churches don't teach it literally, nor do Mospques teach the Koran literally despite what you think. However, some go further and take it more literally, just like the bible-bashing lot in the Deep South of the USA. Others go to the extreme and follow it to the letter, just as whacko nutjobs do with the Bible.
Folks like the "duck dynasty" lot?... infinitely preferable to ISIS if you ask me.snorky782 said:
If radicalisation was as widespread as you claim, then why aren't we all dead? There are approximately 1750 mosques in the UK with thousands attending them.
Because as I previously mentioned, Muslims are people with a similar cross section of good/bad as the rest of society. The problem comes from when good people are led to believe they are doing the "right thing"snorky782 said:
Your argument wil always fall over, as you claim something is happening across the board, but in reality is a huge minority where it's actually happening. And please don't trot out the debunked stats so loved of Sam All
1274 Islamic attacks in 50 countries, in which 11774 people were killed and 14303 injured so far in 2016.snorky782 said:
Do you intend to discuss Syria?
Yes... but eventually we will get back to the root cause again.Of course if you are up for talking about the great geopolitical chess match (side show) between Russia, Nato, the US, and Turkey, than yes.
Edited by skyrover on Thursday 28th July 19:25
1. Suicide bombing isn't part of the way most terrorists operate. That doesn't make them non-terrorists
2. I have no idea who the duck dynasty lot are, but if they're bible bashers then see my point about then being in the middle from normal ----> bit weird -----> extremist.
3. Good people have always been conned into doing bad things from the dawn of time. Even Adam ate the apple
4. And in 1996, or 1986 amd so on. I'm not denying there is a problem. I am saying that it's not religion, it's people doing what they want to do and hiding behind religion.
5. This is the Syria thread. Talk about Syria, start a thread to discuss the rest.
Anyhow, I'm off to chill out, according to my google location I'm in Al Bab, which is a bit concerning, as I'm sure I'm several hundred miles further west at least.
snorky782 said:
If you'd read that properly, you'd see that the Bible Belt lot were positioned in the middle in my post.
The extremists are those in CAR and parts of India committing genocide in the name of Christianlty, or closer to home, albeit 20 years ago, the ethnic cleansers of the Balkans. And before anyone posts it, I know Muslims ethnic cleansed too, but at a much lower rate and in any event that supports my arfpgument about them being nutters too.
Any more information on these Christian genocides in India?The extremists are those in CAR and parts of India committing genocide in the name of Christianlty, or closer to home, albeit 20 years ago, the ethnic cleansers of the Balkans. And before anyone posts it, I know Muslims ethnic cleansed too, but at a much lower rate and in any event that supports my arfpgument about them being nutters too.
I don't recall anyone in the Balkans saying they were carrying out (the Christian) God's will by slaughtering the unbelievers.
I don't know much about the CAR, so won't comment except to say that I would be interested to hear the "Christian" version of events to see if there are any familiar elements. No prizes for guessing what I would expect to hear...
Quote from skyrover:
1274 Islamic attacks in 50 countries, in which 11774 people were killed and 14303 injured so far in 2016.
If that's true, its a real problem.
As mentioned by others, this thread is specifically about Syria.
The roots of the problem are unclear to say the least. What seems to be a recurrent theme, is that Middle East, Muslim countries, need a dictator/strongman to keep them operating. Meddle with that, or try to impose our idea of democracy at your own peril. Is there such a thing as a democratic country in that part of the World? Some would point to Lebanon, but that is another kettle of fish altogether, & could implode any minute. Not exactly a model for progress.
So we either take out the top man (Gadaffi, Saddam, etc etc), or ply the 'insurgents' with weapons, & then wonder why the whole thing goes into meltdown.
However, there is one thing I don't understand: why don't the rich countries of the ME, Saudi, Qatar, UAE etc, take on any refugees?? At the very least, it would stop people drowning in the med.... After all, they are the ones providing much of the money & weapons. I guess it all goes back to the centuries old Sunni V Shia bulls
t.
Religion has an awful lot to answer for. We've just about done it in Ireland - how many years, if at all, will it take to sort out Islam?
1274 Islamic attacks in 50 countries, in which 11774 people were killed and 14303 injured so far in 2016.
If that's true, its a real problem.
As mentioned by others, this thread is specifically about Syria.
The roots of the problem are unclear to say the least. What seems to be a recurrent theme, is that Middle East, Muslim countries, need a dictator/strongman to keep them operating. Meddle with that, or try to impose our idea of democracy at your own peril. Is there such a thing as a democratic country in that part of the World? Some would point to Lebanon, but that is another kettle of fish altogether, & could implode any minute. Not exactly a model for progress.
So we either take out the top man (Gadaffi, Saddam, etc etc), or ply the 'insurgents' with weapons, & then wonder why the whole thing goes into meltdown.
However, there is one thing I don't understand: why don't the rich countries of the ME, Saudi, Qatar, UAE etc, take on any refugees?? At the very least, it would stop people drowning in the med.... After all, they are the ones providing much of the money & weapons. I guess it all goes back to the centuries old Sunni V Shia bulls
t.Religion has an awful lot to answer for. We've just about done it in Ireland - how many years, if at all, will it take to sort out Islam?
Sorry to interrupt the two minute hate on all the Muslims, but has anyone been following the BBC show on the Syrian refugee camp in Jordan? It's really quite fascinating sometimes.
Last week there was a girl and guy getting married after eeing each other in the canteen and the dude asking his uncle to speak to her family. She was all excited, said she had planned on marrying for love, but fk it she's living in a refugee camp and won't be going to university for a blazing career anymore. Great glimpse into a culture.
Today episode is still on- we've just had a champion wrestler who lives in the camp after his flat got hit by a rocket, he runs a wrestling cub for the locals. It's really fascinating how people try to continue their regular lives in an environment that's everything but regular.
Edit *Now they're trying to police all of the makeshift electrical power people are rigging up. The UN can't afford to do it right, so there's a health and safety team to ensure that people's bodges aren't going to burn the place down.
Last week there was a girl and guy getting married after eeing each other in the canteen and the dude asking his uncle to speak to her family. She was all excited, said she had planned on marrying for love, but f
k it she's living in a refugee camp and won't be going to university for a blazing career anymore. Great glimpse into a culture.Today episode is still on- we've just had a champion wrestler who lives in the camp after his flat got hit by a rocket, he runs a wrestling cub for the locals. It's really fascinating how people try to continue their regular lives in an environment that's everything but regular.
Edit *Now they're trying to police all of the makeshift electrical power people are rigging up. The UN can't afford to do it right, so there's a health and safety team to ensure that people's bodges aren't going to burn the place down.
Edited by glazbagun on Thursday 28th July 21:22
glazbagun said:
Sorry to interrupt the two minute hate on all the Muslims, but has anyone been following the BBC show on the Syrian refugee camp in Jordan? It's really quite fascinating sometimes.
Last week there was a girl and guy getting married after eeing each other in the canteen and the dude asking his uncle to speak to her family. She was all excited, said he had planned on marrying for love, but fk it she's living in a refugee camp and won't be going to university for a blazing career anymore. Great glimpse into a culture.
Today episode is still on- we've just had a champion wrestler who lives in the camp after his flat got hit by a rocket, he runs a wrestling cub for the locals. It's really fascinating how people try to continue their regular lives in an environment that's everything but regular.
Is this 'really' necessary? You might think it gives your post the edge of intellectual & moral superiority, but has the opposite effect really. Last week there was a girl and guy getting married after eeing each other in the canteen and the dude asking his uncle to speak to her family. She was all excited, said he had planned on marrying for love, but f
k it she's living in a refugee camp and won't be going to university for a blazing career anymore. Great glimpse into a culture.Today episode is still on- we've just had a champion wrestler who lives in the camp after his flat got hit by a rocket, he runs a wrestling cub for the locals. It's really fascinating how people try to continue their regular lives in an environment that's everything but regular.
AJS- said:
Any more information on these Christian genocides in India?
I don't recall anyone in the Balkans saying they were carrying out (the Christian) God's will by slaughtering the unbelievers.
I don't know much about the CAR, so won't comment except to say that I would be interested to hear the "Christian" version of events to see if there are any familiar elements. No prizes for guessing what I would expect to hear...
I presume you've chosen India, rather than the CAR, as there is absolute proof that genocide is happening there. The NLFT and NSCN are the two groups. Both of these are actively stated as Christian groups seeking to subjugate others and create a separate Christian State for their own ends. I don't recall anyone in the Balkans saying they were carrying out (the Christian) God's will by slaughtering the unbelievers.
I don't know much about the CAR, so won't comment except to say that I would be interested to hear the "Christian" version of events to see if there are any familiar elements. No prizes for guessing what I would expect to hear...
Forget the pedantry over "God's will", to deny that the Bosnian War did not draw lines along religious grounds is ridiculous.
Here is a direct quote from the Bosnian Serb leader
Radovan Karadzic said:
In just a couple of days, Sarajevo will be gone and there will be five hundred thousand dead, in one month Muslims will be annihilated in Bosnia and Herzegovina
Do you deny the Holocaust happened too, because Hitler didn't say it was religious?snorky782 said:
Do you deny the Holocaust happened too, because Hitler didn't say it was religious?
Blimey Snorky782, give it a rest, we get it, you've got a soft spot for Muslims and will defend them come what may, even to the point of trying to find things wrong that other religions have done to somehow mitigate the things that Muslims are currently doing.It's ok we get it, and because most of us are a tolerant bunch we understand and respect your right to hold your own opinions.
Do you not understand and respect the rights of others to hold a differing opinion?
Is not liking the ideology or behaviour of people of a certain religion racist?, I'm not sure it is.
I'm going to be very honest and straight talking now, In my gut I don't like hardcore Muslims. That sounds horrific I know, so bear with with me and i will try and explain my position. I use the term hardcore Muslims because as it happens i have quite a lot of Muslim friends, they are however Turkish, Kurdish,Iranian or westernised Pakistani and are a really decent bunch of men and women. What they share in common is they are what i would describe as relaxed Muslims, some drink, some don't, some fast for Ramadan others don't bother. The Turks think Erdogan is a wan~@er and you can imagine what my Kurdish mates think of ISIS.
However, when it comes to the hardcore, Arabic traditional Muslim robes and Burkas bunch who haven't bothered to learn English properly yet, despite being here long enough to have sorted out free housing or radical's spouting hate against the country's that they have either grown up in or have sought refuge in then I can't stand them. And i have to deal with lots of them so my opinion is not based on anecdotal evidence but based on my own personal interactions.
There is a problem with Islam, 20 years ago nobody talked about Islam because it wasn't an issue, now it's bloody everywhere all the time,
whats it going to be like in another 20 years? if i wanted to live in an environment that was heavily influenced by Islamic traditions i would move to an Islamic country.
Am I a xenophobe for not wanting this culture foisted upon me and my offspring?
Am i a racist because of how i feel?
I don't believe i am, I've never had any issues with any other religion, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, all seem to get on with it and work towards a better community for all without requiring everyone else to change, there aren't any threads on PH complaining about Sikhs behaviour are there?
There are plenty regarding Muslims, now is that because PH is selectively racist and has just randomly chosen to have a go at Muslims instead of Sikhs or is the behaviour of Muslims bringing it upon themselves.
I've said to much already, but back to Syria and somethings not right there. The Russians or the USA could roll through there with 5-6 heavy armoured divisions and air support and finish ISIS in a month yet neither has the will to get on with it, yet we are all supposedly at war With ISIS.
There is a much bigger game being played in Syria than just fighting ISIS it seems.
Peace
scherzkeks said:
Sam All said:
snorky782 said:
What I am saying is that NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS. .
AGREED.So were the terrorist ones born as terrorists - what happened to them? Did religion have any part to play?
The USA dropped more ordnance on Vietnam, Laos (unlawfully), Germany, Japan, etc but we're not seeing many terrorist actions against Uncle Sam from those beleagured states. Why?
And back to Syria - peace talks due to convene again in August. Will they invite the active groups this time?
Budflicker said:
Blimey Snorky782, give it a rest, we get it, you've got a soft spot for Muslims and will defend them come what may, even to the point of trying to find things wrong that other religions have done to somehow mitigate the things that Muslims are currently doing.
It's ok we get it, and because most of us are a tolerant bunch we understand and respect your right to hold your own opinions.
Do you not understand and respect the rights of others to hold a differing opinion?
Is not liking the ideology or behaviour of people of a certain religion racist?, I'm not sure it is.
I'm going to be very honest and straight talking now, In my gut I don't like hardcore Muslims. That sounds horrific I know, so bear with with me and i will try and explain my position. I use the term hardcore Muslims because as it happens i have quite a lot of Muslim friends, they are however Turkish, Kurdish,Iranian or westernised Pakistani and are a really decent bunch of men and women. What they share in common is they are what i would describe as relaxed Muslims, some drink, some don't, some fast for Ramadan others don't bother. The Turks think Erdogan is a wan~@er and you can imagine what my Kurdish mates think of ISIS.
However, when it comes to the hardcore, Arabic traditional Muslim robes and Burkas bunch who haven't bothered to learn English properly yet, despite being here long enough to have sorted out free housing or radical's spouting hate against the country's that they have either grown up in or have sought refuge in then I can't stand them. And i have to deal with lots of them so my opinion is not based on anecdotal evidence but based on my own personal interactions.
There is a problem with Islam, 20 years ago nobody talked about Islam because it wasn't an issue, now it's bloody everywhere all the time,
whats it going to be like in another 20 years? if i wanted to live in an environment that was heavily influenced by Islamic traditions i would move to an Islamic country.
Am I a xenophobe for not wanting this culture foisted upon me and my offspring?
Am i a racist because of how i feel?
I don't believe i am, I've never had any issues with any other religion, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, all seem to get on with it and work towards a better community for all without requiring everyone else to change, there aren't any threads on PH complaining about Sikhs behaviour are there?
There are plenty regarding Muslims, now is that because PH is selectively racist and has just randomly chosen to have a go at Muslims instead of Sikhs or is the behaviour of Muslims bringing it upon themselves.
+1 It's ok we get it, and because most of us are a tolerant bunch we understand and respect your right to hold your own opinions.
Do you not understand and respect the rights of others to hold a differing opinion?
Is not liking the ideology or behaviour of people of a certain religion racist?, I'm not sure it is.
I'm going to be very honest and straight talking now, In my gut I don't like hardcore Muslims. That sounds horrific I know, so bear with with me and i will try and explain my position. I use the term hardcore Muslims because as it happens i have quite a lot of Muslim friends, they are however Turkish, Kurdish,Iranian or westernised Pakistani and are a really decent bunch of men and women. What they share in common is they are what i would describe as relaxed Muslims, some drink, some don't, some fast for Ramadan others don't bother. The Turks think Erdogan is a wan~@er and you can imagine what my Kurdish mates think of ISIS.
However, when it comes to the hardcore, Arabic traditional Muslim robes and Burkas bunch who haven't bothered to learn English properly yet, despite being here long enough to have sorted out free housing or radical's spouting hate against the country's that they have either grown up in or have sought refuge in then I can't stand them. And i have to deal with lots of them so my opinion is not based on anecdotal evidence but based on my own personal interactions.
There is a problem with Islam, 20 years ago nobody talked about Islam because it wasn't an issue, now it's bloody everywhere all the time,
whats it going to be like in another 20 years? if i wanted to live in an environment that was heavily influenced by Islamic traditions i would move to an Islamic country.
Am I a xenophobe for not wanting this culture foisted upon me and my offspring?
Am i a racist because of how i feel?
I don't believe i am, I've never had any issues with any other religion, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, all seem to get on with it and work towards a better community for all without requiring everyone else to change, there aren't any threads on PH complaining about Sikhs behaviour are there?
There are plenty regarding Muslims, now is that because PH is selectively racist and has just randomly chosen to have a go at Muslims instead of Sikhs or is the behaviour of Muslims bringing it upon themselves.
Well said.
snorky782 said:
AJS- said:
Any more information on these Christian genocides in India?
I don't recall anyone in the Balkans saying they were carrying out (the Christian) God's will by slaughtering the unbelievers.
I don't know much about the CAR, so won't comment except to say that I would be interested to hear the "Christian" version of events to see if there are any familiar elements. No prizes for guessing what I would expect to hear...
I presume you've chosen India, rather than the CAR, as there is absolute proof that genocide is happening there. The NLFT and NSCN are the two groups. Both of these are actively stated as Christian groups seeking to subjugate others and create a separate Christian State for their own ends. I don't recall anyone in the Balkans saying they were carrying out (the Christian) God's will by slaughtering the unbelievers.
I don't know much about the CAR, so won't comment except to say that I would be interested to hear the "Christian" version of events to see if there are any familiar elements. No prizes for guessing what I would expect to hear...
Forget the pedantry over "God's will", to deny that the Bosnian War did not draw lines along religious grounds is ridiculous.
Here is a direct quote from the Bosnian Serb leader
Radovan Karadzic said:
In just a couple of days, Sarajevo will be gone and there will be five hundred thousand dead, in one month Muslims will be annihilated in Bosnia and Herzegovina
Do you deny the Holocaust happened too, because Hitler didn't say it was religious?Religion was definitely the dividing line in the break up of Yugoslavia. I don't see that it was religiously inspired in the same way as IS, and the wider drive for an Islamic mode of government is driven by Islam itself.
The holocaust was a genocide against a religious group but again not inspired by a religion.
CAR seems to be a case of it taking two to tango...
See the theme here? Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists and just about everyone else is capable of awful things. Islam appears to contain a religious imperative to do awful things in the cause of establishing an Islamic government.
Budflicker said:
Blimey Snorky782, give it a rest, we get it, you've got a soft spot for Muslims and will defend them come what may, even to the point of trying to find things wrong that other religions have done to somehow mitigate the things that Muslims are currently doing.
It's ok we get it, and because most of us are a tolerant bunch we understand and respect your right to hold your own opinions.
Do you not understand and respect the rights of others to hold a differing opinion?
Is not liking the ideology or behaviour of people of a certain religion racist?, I'm not sure it is.
I'm going to be very honest and straight talking now, In my gut I don't like hardcore Muslims. That sounds horrific I know, so bear with with me and i will try and explain my position. I use the term hardcore Muslims because as it happens i have quite a lot of Muslim friends, they are however Turkish, Kurdish,Iranian or westernised Pakistani and are a really decent bunch of men and women. What they share in common is they are what i would describe as relaxed Muslims, some drink, some don't, some fast for Ramadan others don't bother. The Turks think Erdogan is a wan~@er and you can imagine what my Kurdish mates think of ISIS.
However, when it comes to the hardcore, Arabic traditional Muslim robes and Burkas bunch who haven't bothered to learn English properly yet, despite being here long enough to have sorted out free housing or radical's spouting hate against the country's that they have either grown up in or have sought refuge in then I can't stand them. And i have to deal with lots of them so my opinion is not based on anecdotal evidence but based on my own personal interactions.
There is a problem with Islam, 20 years ago nobody talked about Islam because it wasn't an issue, now it's bloody everywhere all the time,
whats it going to be like in another 20 years? if i wanted to live in an environment that was heavily influenced by Islamic traditions i would move to an Islamic country.
Am I a xenophobe for not wanting this culture foisted upon me and my offspring?
Am i a racist because of how i feel?
I don't believe i am, I've never had any issues with any other religion, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, all seem to get on with it and work towards a better community for all without requiring everyone else to change, there aren't any threads on PH complaining about Sikhs behaviour are there?
There are plenty regarding Muslims, now is that because PH is selectively racist and has just randomly chosen to have a go at Muslims instead of Sikhs or is the behaviour of Muslims bringing it upon themselves.
I've said to much already, but back to Syria and somethings not right there. The Russians or the USA could roll through there with 5-6 heavy armoured divisions and air support and finish ISIS in a month yet neither has the will to get on with it, yet we are all supposedly at war With ISIS.
There is a much bigger game being played in Syria than just fighting ISIS it seems.
Peace
The irony is that I don't have a soft spot for Muslims, or any religion for that matter. I just have a soft spot for reason and sense and there isn't a lot of that on this or many other threads around terrorism. It's ok we get it, and because most of us are a tolerant bunch we understand and respect your right to hold your own opinions.
Do you not understand and respect the rights of others to hold a differing opinion?
Is not liking the ideology or behaviour of people of a certain religion racist?, I'm not sure it is.
I'm going to be very honest and straight talking now, In my gut I don't like hardcore Muslims. That sounds horrific I know, so bear with with me and i will try and explain my position. I use the term hardcore Muslims because as it happens i have quite a lot of Muslim friends, they are however Turkish, Kurdish,Iranian or westernised Pakistani and are a really decent bunch of men and women. What they share in common is they are what i would describe as relaxed Muslims, some drink, some don't, some fast for Ramadan others don't bother. The Turks think Erdogan is a wan~@er and you can imagine what my Kurdish mates think of ISIS.
However, when it comes to the hardcore, Arabic traditional Muslim robes and Burkas bunch who haven't bothered to learn English properly yet, despite being here long enough to have sorted out free housing or radical's spouting hate against the country's that they have either grown up in or have sought refuge in then I can't stand them. And i have to deal with lots of them so my opinion is not based on anecdotal evidence but based on my own personal interactions.
There is a problem with Islam, 20 years ago nobody talked about Islam because it wasn't an issue, now it's bloody everywhere all the time,
whats it going to be like in another 20 years? if i wanted to live in an environment that was heavily influenced by Islamic traditions i would move to an Islamic country.
Am I a xenophobe for not wanting this culture foisted upon me and my offspring?
Am i a racist because of how i feel?
I don't believe i am, I've never had any issues with any other religion, Sikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, all seem to get on with it and work towards a better community for all without requiring everyone else to change, there aren't any threads on PH complaining about Sikhs behaviour are there?
There are plenty regarding Muslims, now is that because PH is selectively racist and has just randomly chosen to have a go at Muslims instead of Sikhs or is the behaviour of Muslims bringing it upon themselves.
I've said to much already, but back to Syria and somethings not right there. The Russians or the USA could roll through there with 5-6 heavy armoured divisions and air support and finish ISIS in a month yet neither has the will to get on with it, yet we are all supposedly at war With ISIS.
There is a much bigger game being played in Syria than just fighting ISIS it seems.
Peace
In the main I agree with your points, although I'd challenge your definition of hardcore. There any many devout Muslims amd Christians who live a certain way in this country, but would never consider committing any act of terrorism. My uncle took early retirement as a headteacher to become a vicar and lived a hugely religious lifestyle. They aren't really hardcore. Nor are the hundreds of Brits who live abroad and refuse to learn the language of the country they live in, send their kids to English schools and generally build English enclaves wherever they settle.
I don't care for hardcore anyone, so we're agreed on that, just the definition of who is hardcore.
I also understand your frustration with certain aspects of the younger Pakistani (and this is the Muslim issue in reality) community. Believe me, growing up and living in a Northern mill town has seen a lot of change here. However, the drug taking / dealing, uninsured, fast car driving, disrespect for the law scum exist in both colours and religion, so I don't single one colour or religion out specifically. I'm not suggesting you are either btw.
My issue is that people on here treat Islam, as if it's nothing but Anjem Choudharys spouting bile continually, when the truth couldn't be further from that.
Sadly, some on here are very prejudiced in their views and they outweigh any voice of reason or sense. Your post is generally sensible, but others will only pick up on the dislike part of it, turn it into hate rhetoric and ignore the rest.
chris watton said:
snorky782 said:
The irony is that I don't have a soft spot for Muslims, or any religion for that matter. I just have a soft spot for reason and sense.....
If that really is the case, why did the mods feel the need to ban you under your previous username?Grow up, some people get upset when the facts are told to them in a blunt fashion, that doesn't mean the facts are any less true.
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