Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
AJS- said:
Religion was definitely the dividing line in the break up of Yugoslavia.
Religious divides just happened to coincide with divides upon the lines of nationality. In the former Yugoslavia, Tito's government accorded the Bosnian Muslims the status of a Nationality, separate from Serbian or Croatian or the other nationalities of the country. Previously, they'd simply been Yugoslav citizens of Muslim faith. Now they were a "Nation" within the nation. This was the root of the problem rather than purely religion itself. When the country broke up, they wanted their own nation in geographical terms, the Serbs/Croats begged to differ. And of course, Serbs and Croats are both traditionally Christian peoples, although, as in Ireland, divided along sectarian lines, one being Orthodox and one being Catholic. Muslim Bosniaks and Croatian Christians fought alongside each other (and also against each other sometimes) and they've ended up with a federation of the two within a Greater Bosnia. So there was some unity across the religious divide in a kind of pan-national way. There was also a legacy of resentment between Serbs and Croats due to Croat collaboration with Germany in WWII, which was obviously not a religious divide.So the war was complex, and had many causes/drivers, not simply Christians v Muslims.
Fascinating and complex and frustrating place, and it may well kick off again one day if the conditions are right. Sadly. Credentials - I spend quite a bit of time in Serbia/Bosnia/Slovenia for family reasons and studied the region at University in the 80s/90s. I am an atheist and would dearly love to blame bloody religion for all the ills in former Yugoslavia, but it's not the case. Religions were used partly as the excuse to differentiate and dehumanise, not for the first or last time. But without other factors it wouldn't have been enough of a spark to light the horrific conflict which happened.
The Don of Croy said:
scherzkeks said:
Sam All said:
snorky782 said:
What I am saying is that NOT ALL MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS. .
AGREED.So were the terrorist ones born as terrorists - what happened to them? Did religion have any part to play?
The USA dropped more ordnance on Vietnam, Laos (unlawfully), Germany, Japan, etc but we're not seeing many terrorist actions against Uncle Sam from those beleagured states. Why?
And back to Syria - peace talks due to convene again in August. Will they invite the active groups this time?
With the advent of social media, it is a no-brainer that this would happen. Again, where does the likes of ISIS get all of these young men? What drives them? Even the CIA openly admits that blowback accounts for much of it.
Those who want to believe it is purely the result of an "evil" religion do so so that they can sleep better at night. We have utterly destroyed vast swathes of the ME over the course of decades, and it continues. No offense, but consider the banality of your opening remark "might get them upset." Do you understand the scale of the destruction?
snorky782 said:
You have snipped a huge chunk out of the post that I took time to write, to apply an ad hominem type attack.
Grow up, some people get upset when the facts are told to them in a blunt fashion, that doesn't mean the facts are any less true.
Irrespective of that, in my 14 years as a PH member, I have never once been banned. I have put my foot in it a few times, and wrote some silly things in the heat of the moment, but I have always recognised that and apologised, realising I was perhaps wrong.Grow up, some people get upset when the facts are told to them in a blunt fashion, that doesn't mean the facts are any less true.
And you tell me to 'grow Up'!
chris watton said:
Irrespective of that, in my 14 years as a PH member, I have never once been banned. I have put my foot in it a few times, and wrote some silly things in the heat of the moment, but I have always recognised that and apologised, realising I was perhaps wrong.
And you tell me to 'grow Up'!
Take it to PMAnd you tell me to 'grow Up'!
snorky782 said:
Take it to PM
No need - I just get tired sometimes of reading the same small clique of posters who feign moral and intellectual superiority over others, and in turn, do their best to shout down and insult those they disagree with. It is not at all healthy for real debate, I don't think.That is all.
Mods, feel free to delete this as it adds nothing to the content of this thread.
snorky782 said:
The irony is that I don't have a soft spot for Muslims, or any religion for that matter. I just have a soft spot for reason and sense and there isn't a lot of that on this or many other threads around terrorism.
In the main I agree with your points, although I'd challenge your definition of hardcore. There any many devout Muslims amd Christians who live a certain way in this country, but would never consider committing any act of terrorism. My uncle took early retirement as a headteacher to become a vicar and lived a hugely religious lifestyle. They aren't really hardcore. Nor are the hundreds of Brits who live abroad and refuse to learn the language of the country they live in, send their kids to English schools and generally build English enclaves wherever they settle.
I don't care for hardcore anyone, so we're agreed on that, just the definition of who is hardcore.
I also understand your frustration with certain aspects of the younger Pakistani (and this is the Muslim issue in reality) community. Believe me, growing up and living in a Northern mill town has seen a lot of change here. However, the drug taking / dealing, uninsured, fast car driving, disrespect for the law scum exist in both colours and religion, so I don't single one colour or religion out specifically. I'm not suggesting you are either btw.
My issue is that people on here treat Islam, as if it's nothing but Anjem Choudharys spouting bile continually, when the truth couldn't be further from that.
Sadly, some on here are very prejudiced in their views and they outweigh any voice of reason or sense. Your post is generally sensible, but others will only pick up on the dislike part of it, turn it into hate rhetoric and ignore the rest.
.In the main I agree with your points, although I'd challenge your definition of hardcore. There any many devout Muslims amd Christians who live a certain way in this country, but would never consider committing any act of terrorism. My uncle took early retirement as a headteacher to become a vicar and lived a hugely religious lifestyle. They aren't really hardcore. Nor are the hundreds of Brits who live abroad and refuse to learn the language of the country they live in, send their kids to English schools and generally build English enclaves wherever they settle.
I don't care for hardcore anyone, so we're agreed on that, just the definition of who is hardcore.
I also understand your frustration with certain aspects of the younger Pakistani (and this is the Muslim issue in reality) community. Believe me, growing up and living in a Northern mill town has seen a lot of change here. However, the drug taking / dealing, uninsured, fast car driving, disrespect for the law scum exist in both colours and religion, so I don't single one colour or religion out specifically. I'm not suggesting you are either btw.
My issue is that people on here treat Islam, as if it's nothing but Anjem Choudharys spouting bile continually, when the truth couldn't be further from that.
Sadly, some on here are very prejudiced in their views and they outweigh any voice of reason or sense. Your post is generally sensible, but others will only pick up on the dislike part of it, turn it into hate rhetoric and ignore the rest.
I comment on your post as someone unaware of your forum history as suggested by other contributors that suggest you have an agenda.
Your post,to me appears reasonable and apposite.
Like many other contributors to this Topic I share a view that the increase in immigration into the U.K.,in a relatively short timeframe, is causing resentment and concern.
In the past the volume of immigration was relatively small and gradual.
The new immigrants had time,and for the most part were content, to absorb our culture and adopt many of our traditions,
albeit continuing with some of the traditions and practices,both religious and social of their country of origin.
The problem now as many strands.
Go to almost any part of Africa,Middle East,India,Pakistan etc and even the poorest people have access to the Internet.
They can immediately have access to see and read of a lifestyle that is far more comfortable than the one in which they live.
The wars that have taken place in the Middle East and Africa has decimated large areas of those countries.
Is it any surprise that they see immigration to Europe as the answer to all their prayers.
The fact that Merkel has encouraged many young men to come to Europe has exacerbated the situation
Add to this the extreme,fascistic,beliefs of ISIS and similar organisations which fills the heads of some of these men and women with hatred and we have an explosive situation.
I see the general demonisation of all Muslims as playing into the hands of ISIS,as it is their purpose to spread fear and hatred.
If you were a "normal",peaceful integrated Muslim and you were cursed at and abused,in what you considered to be your adopted homeland,how might you react ?
This "normal" Muslim,who hates ISIS as much as we do,would naturally feel fear and resentment and close ranks.
This does not mean he will join ISIS but he may begin to pay attention to their evil beliefs.
As I see it we must come down very hard on anyone that supports or has radical sympathies,whilst at the same time embracing the large majority of Muslims that wish to integrate peacefully into our society.
Edited by avinalarf on Friday 29th July 13:43
avinalarf said:
I comment on your post as someone unaware of your forum history as suggested by other contributors that suggest you have an agenda.
Your post,to me appears reasonable and apposite.
Like many other contributors to this Topic I share a view that the increase in immigration into the U.K.,in a relatively short timeframe, is causing resentment and concern.
In the past the volume of immigration was relatively small and gradual.
The new immigrants had time,and for the most part were content, to absorb our culture and adopt many of our traditions,
albeit continuing with some of the traditions and practices,both religious and social of their country of origin.
The problem now as many strands.
Go to almost any part of Africa,Middle East,India,Pakistan etc and even the poorest people have access to the Internet.
They can immediately have access to see and read of a lifestyle that is far more comfortable than the one in which they live.
The wars that have taken place in the Middle East and Africa has decimated large ares of those countries.
Is it any surprise that they see immigration to Europe as the answer to all their prayers.
The fact that Merkel has encouraged many young men to come to Europe has exasapated the situation.
Add to this the extreme,fascistic,beliefs of ISIS and similar organisations which fills the heads of some of these men and women with hatred and we have an explosive situation.
I see the general demonisation of all Muslims as playing into the hands of ISIS,as it is their purpose to spread fear and hatred.
If you were a "normal",peaceful integrated Muslim and you were cursed at and abused,in what you considered to be your adopted homeland,how might you react ?
This "normal" Muslim,who hates ISIS as much as we do,would naturally feel fear and resentment and close ranks.
This does not mean he will join ISIS but he may begin to pay attention to their evil beliefs.
As I see it we must come down very hard on anyone that supports or has radical sympathies,whilst at the same time embracing the large majority of Muslims that wish to integrate peacefully into our society.
I don't have an agenda, others are merely trying to deflect from what I consider to be rational debate. Your post,to me appears reasonable and apposite.
Like many other contributors to this Topic I share a view that the increase in immigration into the U.K.,in a relatively short timeframe, is causing resentment and concern.
In the past the volume of immigration was relatively small and gradual.
The new immigrants had time,and for the most part were content, to absorb our culture and adopt many of our traditions,
albeit continuing with some of the traditions and practices,both religious and social of their country of origin.
The problem now as many strands.
Go to almost any part of Africa,Middle East,India,Pakistan etc and even the poorest people have access to the Internet.
They can immediately have access to see and read of a lifestyle that is far more comfortable than the one in which they live.
The wars that have taken place in the Middle East and Africa has decimated large ares of those countries.
Is it any surprise that they see immigration to Europe as the answer to all their prayers.
The fact that Merkel has encouraged many young men to come to Europe has exasapated the situation.
Add to this the extreme,fascistic,beliefs of ISIS and similar organisations which fills the heads of some of these men and women with hatred and we have an explosive situation.
I see the general demonisation of all Muslims as playing into the hands of ISIS,as it is their purpose to spread fear and hatred.
If you were a "normal",peaceful integrated Muslim and you were cursed at and abused,in what you considered to be your adopted homeland,how might you react ?
This "normal" Muslim,who hates ISIS as much as we do,would naturally feel fear and resentment and close ranks.
This does not mean he will join ISIS but he may begin to pay attention to their evil beliefs.
As I see it we must come down very hard on anyone that supports or has radical sympathies,whilst at the same time embracing the large majority of Muslims that wish to integrate peacefully into our society.
The difficulty in replying to your post is that it starts out discussing immigration as whole, but then focuses on Muslims exclusively. We get immigrants from EU countries, The Far East, the US, the Antipodes, as well as the Middle East and Africa. A lot of these including many of the African migrants are not Muslim, so to place the whole issue of immigrants and migrants (there is a difference) at the feet of Islam and then connect it to ISIS is disingenuous.
There are some British born Muslims heading to Syria to fight for ISIS for whatever reason too and this has nothing to do with immigration or where they grew up being in poverty. I completely agree that these and any others who support ISIS should be jailed, monitored, or whatever else we can do to prevent any atrocity. I do think our security services do a fantastic job in this regard.
The difficulty on this thread and others is being heard in your rational debate. You either get shouted down by the pitchfork wielding mob, or they result to strawman / ad hominem attacks to avoid the discussion. For example, the recent "outing" of me as a prior username and the speed with which three or four jumped on that exclusively there have also been arguments that I'm a "terrorist sympathiser", or have "a soft spot for Muslims" none of which are actually true and are never subsequently addressed by the baying mob.
snorky782 said:
or have "a soft spot for Muslims" none of which are actually true and are never subsequently addressed by the baying mob.
To Be fair I don't think my rather long post could be considered as "baying mob"I also thought that your reply was one of your more erudite contributions of late. As demonstrated by TTwiggy and someone else the other day on another thread about the same thing when we actually debate and discuss prudent points and examine differences in opinion and try to identify common ground it all works for the better.
Unfortunately it only takes a few minute to return to the point scoring, passive aggressive, loaded question bulls
t that seems to dominate these threads.Lets all play nicely eh, often the truth of two sides lies in the middle somewhere
snorky782 said:
avinalarf said:
I comment on your post as someone unaware of your forum history as suggested by other contributors that suggest you have an agenda.
Your post,to me appears reasonable and apposite.
Like many other contributors to this Topic I share a view that the increase in immigration into the U.K.,in a relatively short timeframe, is causing resentment and concern.
In the past the volume of immigration was relatively small and gradual.
The new immigrants had time,and for the most part were content, to absorb our culture and adopt many of our traditions,
albeit continuing with some of the traditions and practices,both religious and social of their country of origin.
The problem now as many strands.
Go to almost any part of Africa,Middle East,India,Pakistan etc and even the poorest people have access to the Internet.
They can immediately have access to see and read of a lifestyle that is far more comfortable than the one in which they live.
The wars that have taken place in the Middle East and Africa has decimated large ares of those countries.
Is it any surprise that they see immigration to Europe as the answer to all their prayers.
The fact that Merkel has encouraged many young men to come to Europe has exasapated the situation.
Add to this the extreme,fascistic,beliefs of ISIS and similar organisations which fills the heads of some of these men and women with hatred and we have an explosive situation.
I see the general demonisation of all Muslims as playing into the hands of ISIS,as it is their purpose to spread fear and hatred.
If you were a "normal",peaceful integrated Muslim and you were cursed at and abused,in what you considered to be your adopted homeland,how might you react ?
This "normal" Muslim,who hates ISIS as much as we do,would naturally feel fear and resentment and close ranks.
This does not mean he will join ISIS but he may begin to pay attention to their evil beliefs.
As I see it we must come down very hard on anyone that supports or has radical sympathies,whilst at the same time embracing the large majority of Muslims that wish to integrate peacefully into our society.
I don't have an agenda, others are merely trying to deflect from what I consider to be rational debate. Your post,to me appears reasonable and apposite.
Like many other contributors to this Topic I share a view that the increase in immigration into the U.K.,in a relatively short timeframe, is causing resentment and concern.
In the past the volume of immigration was relatively small and gradual.
The new immigrants had time,and for the most part were content, to absorb our culture and adopt many of our traditions,
albeit continuing with some of the traditions and practices,both religious and social of their country of origin.
The problem now as many strands.
Go to almost any part of Africa,Middle East,India,Pakistan etc and even the poorest people have access to the Internet.
They can immediately have access to see and read of a lifestyle that is far more comfortable than the one in which they live.
The wars that have taken place in the Middle East and Africa has decimated large ares of those countries.
Is it any surprise that they see immigration to Europe as the answer to all their prayers.
The fact that Merkel has encouraged many young men to come to Europe has exasapated the situation.
Add to this the extreme,fascistic,beliefs of ISIS and similar organisations which fills the heads of some of these men and women with hatred and we have an explosive situation.
I see the general demonisation of all Muslims as playing into the hands of ISIS,as it is their purpose to spread fear and hatred.
If you were a "normal",peaceful integrated Muslim and you were cursed at and abused,in what you considered to be your adopted homeland,how might you react ?
This "normal" Muslim,who hates ISIS as much as we do,would naturally feel fear and resentment and close ranks.
This does not mean he will join ISIS but he may begin to pay attention to their evil beliefs.
As I see it we must come down very hard on anyone that supports or has radical sympathies,whilst at the same time embracing the large majority of Muslims that wish to integrate peacefully into our society.
The difficulty in replying to your post is that it starts out discussing immigration as whole, but then focuses on Muslims exclusively. We get immigrants from EU countries, The Far East, the US, the Antipodes, as well as the Middle East and Africa. A lot of these including many of the African migrants are not Muslim, so to place the whole issue of immigrants and migrants (there is a difference) at the feet of Islam and then connect it to ISIS is disingenuous.
There are some British born Muslims heading to Syria to fight for ISIS for whatever reason too and this has nothing to do with immigration or where they grew up being in poverty. I completely agree that these and any others who support ISIS should be jailed, monitored, or whatever else we can do to prevent any atrocity. I do think our security services do a fantastic job in this regard.
The difficulty on this thread and others is being heard in your rational debate. You either get shouted down by the pitchfork wielding mob, or they result to strawman / ad hominem attacks to avoid the discussion. For example, the recent "outing" of me as a prior username and the speed with which three or four jumped on that exclusively there have also been arguments that I'm a "terrorist sympathiser", or have "a soft spot for Muslims" none of which are actually true and are never subsequently addressed by the baying mob.
Like Chris W's post, this one adds nothing to the topic but right from the off, it's as if you simply want a punch-up.
If I've read you all wrong, then sorry. Your posting from hereon in will reveal.
Budflicker said:
snorky782 said:
or have "a soft spot for Muslims" none of which are actually true and are never subsequently addressed by the baying mob.
To Be fair I don't think my rather long post could be considered as "baying mob"I also thought that your reply was one of your more erudite contributions of late. As demonstrated by TTwiggy and someone else the other day on another thread about the same thing when we actually debate and discuss prudent points and examine differences in opinion and try to identify common ground it all works for the better.
Unfortunately it only takes a few minute to return to the point scoring, passive aggressive, loaded question bulls
t that seems to dominate these threads.Lets all play nicely eh, often the truth of two sides lies in the middle somewhere
I'm not intending to try to score points and I don't try to post passive aggressively, so assume that's aimed at others.
I'm happy to debate. Sadly the aim of others in outing me as a previous poster really can only be for one reason, that being to passive aggressively get the mods to pull this account, purely for a difference in opinion. I'd actually like to discuss Syria and other aspects of the ISIS problem.
snorky782 said:
I didn't say you were necessarily part of the baying mob, I used your comment as it was recent and fresh in my memory, there are others I've recalled since, that are far more barbed.
I'm not intending to try to score points and I don't try to post passive aggressively, so assume that's aimed at others.
I'm happy to debate. Sadly the aim of others in outing me as a previous poster really can only be for one reason, that being to passive aggressively get the mods to pull this account, purely for a difference in opinion. I'd actually like to discuss Syria and other aspects of the ISIS problem.
Good, whats you're take on my earlier point regarding the Russians and US being able to roll 5-6 Divisions of heavy armour with air support through Syria and mop up the ISIS grip on the area, yet they all seem very reluctant to do anything other than arm opposing sides in a drawn out proxy war which only makes the Syrian people suffer more.I'm not intending to try to score points and I don't try to post passive aggressively, so assume that's aimed at others.
I'm happy to debate. Sadly the aim of others in outing me as a previous poster really can only be for one reason, that being to passive aggressively get the mods to pull this account, purely for a difference in opinion. I'd actually like to discuss Syria and other aspects of the ISIS problem.
snorky782 said:
avinalarf said:
I comment on your post as someone unaware of your forum history as suggested by other contributors that suggest you have an agenda.
Your post,to me appears reasonable and apposite.
Like many other contributors to this Topic I share a view that the increase in immigration into the U.K.,in a relatively short timeframe, is causing resentment and concern.
In the past the volume of immigration was relatively small and gradual.
The new immigrants had time,and for the most part were content, to absorb our culture and adopt many of our traditions,
albeit continuing with some of the traditions and practices,both religious and social of their country of origin.
The problem now as many strands.
Go to almost any part of Africa,Middle East,India,Pakistan etc and even the poorest people have access to the Internet.
They can immediately have access to see and read of a lifestyle that is far more comfortable than the one in which they live.
The wars that have taken place in the Middle East and Africa has decimated large ares of those countries.
Is it any surprise that they see immigration to Europe as the answer to all their prayers.
The fact that Merkel has encouraged many young men to come to Europe has exasapated the situation.
Add to this the extreme,fascistic,beliefs of ISIS and similar organisations which fills the heads of some of these men and women with hatred and we have an explosive situation.
I see the general demonisation of all Muslims as playing into the hands of ISIS,as it is their purpose to spread fear and hatred.
If you were a "normal",peaceful integrated Muslim and you were cursed at and abused,in what you considered to be your adopted homeland,how might you react ?
This "normal" Muslim,who hates ISIS as much as we do,would naturally feel fear and resentment and close ranks.
This does not mean he will join ISIS but he may begin to pay attention to their evil beliefs.
As I see it we must come down very hard on anyone that supports or has radical sympathies,whilst at the same time embracing the large majority of Muslims that wish to integrate peacefully into our society.
I don't have an agenda, others are merely trying to deflect from what I consider to be rational debate. Your post,to me appears reasonable and apposite.
Like many other contributors to this Topic I share a view that the increase in immigration into the U.K.,in a relatively short timeframe, is causing resentment and concern.
In the past the volume of immigration was relatively small and gradual.
The new immigrants had time,and for the most part were content, to absorb our culture and adopt many of our traditions,
albeit continuing with some of the traditions and practices,both religious and social of their country of origin.
The problem now as many strands.
Go to almost any part of Africa,Middle East,India,Pakistan etc and even the poorest people have access to the Internet.
They can immediately have access to see and read of a lifestyle that is far more comfortable than the one in which they live.
The wars that have taken place in the Middle East and Africa has decimated large ares of those countries.
Is it any surprise that they see immigration to Europe as the answer to all their prayers.
The fact that Merkel has encouraged many young men to come to Europe has exasapated the situation.
Add to this the extreme,fascistic,beliefs of ISIS and similar organisations which fills the heads of some of these men and women with hatred and we have an explosive situation.
I see the general demonisation of all Muslims as playing into the hands of ISIS,as it is their purpose to spread fear and hatred.
If you were a "normal",peaceful integrated Muslim and you were cursed at and abused,in what you considered to be your adopted homeland,how might you react ?
This "normal" Muslim,who hates ISIS as much as we do,would naturally feel fear and resentment and close ranks.
This does not mean he will join ISIS but he may begin to pay attention to their evil beliefs.
As I see it we must come down very hard on anyone that supports or has radical sympathies,whilst at the same time embracing the large majority of Muslims that wish to integrate peacefully into our society.
The difficulty in replying to your post is that it starts out discussing immigration as whole, but then focuses on Muslims exclusively. We get immigrants from EU countries, The Far East, the US, the Antipodes, as well as the Middle East and Africa. A lot of these including many of the African migrants are not Muslim, so to place the whole issue of immigrants and migrants (there is a difference) at the feet of Islam and then connect it to ISIS is disingenuous.
There are some British born Muslims heading to Syria to fight for ISIS for whatever reason too and this has nothing to do with immigration or where they grew up being in poverty. I completely agree that these and any others who support ISIS should be jailed, monitored, or whatever else we can do to prevent any atrocity. I do think our security services do a fantastic job in this regard.
The difficulty on this thread and others is being heard in your rational debate. You either get shouted down by the pitchfork wielding mob, or they result to strawman / ad hominem attacks to avoid the discussion. For example, the recent "outing" of me as a prior username and the speed with which three or four jumped on that exclusively there have also been arguments that I'm a "terrorist sympathiser", or have "a soft spot for Muslims" none of which are actually true and are never subsequently addressed by the baying mob.
I'm beginning to see what others have commented on,you are an argumentative so and so.
We do have an horrific problem with the evil of ISIS.....FACT.
There are a minority of Muslims that approve and practice their b
disation of Islam......FACT.There are,of course,many other terrorist organisations,human rights problems etc that can be debated,but the problem that concerns me and most others,at the moment,is ISIS and Muslin fundamentalism.
You really cannot expect to come on an open Forum as this and not expect to find people with diametrically opposed viewpoints.
Some of these contributors will be quite forceful and disagreeable to you.
Welcome to the World.
avinalarf said:
Oh dear me.
I'm beginning to see what others have commented on,you are an argumentative so and so.
We do have an horrific problem with the evil of ISIS.....FACT.
There are a minority of Muslims that approve and practice their bdisation of Islam......FACT.
There are,of course,many other terrorist organisations,human rights problems etc that can be debated,but the problem that concerns me and most others,at the moment,is ISIS and Muslin fundamentalism.
You really cannot expect to come on an open Forum as this and not expect to find people with diametrically opposed viewpoints.
Some of these contributors will be quite forceful and disagreeable to you.
Welcome to the World.
I wasn't disagreeing with you, other than on one bit and I certainly wasn't doing it argumentative, or at leas that wasn't my intention. I'm beginning to see what others have commented on,you are an argumentative so and so.
We do have an horrific problem with the evil of ISIS.....FACT.
There are a minority of Muslims that approve and practice their b
disation of Islam......FACT.There are,of course,many other terrorist organisations,human rights problems etc that can be debated,but the problem that concerns me and most others,at the moment,is ISIS and Muslin fundamentalism.
You really cannot expect to come on an open Forum as this and not expect to find people with diametrically opposed viewpoints.
Some of these contributors will be quite forceful and disagreeable to you.
Welcome to the World.
I agree there's a problem with ISIS and fundamentalism. I won't ever deny that.
scherzkeks said:
Different times, but the Viet Cong used terror, too; it was just confined to the region, much like the terror in the ME up until the past decade or so.
With the advent of social media, it is a no-brainer that this would happen. Again, where does the likes of ISIS get all of these young men? What drives them? Even the CIA openly admits that blowback accounts for much of it.
Those who want to believe it is purely the result of an "evil" religion do so so that they can sleep better at night. We have utterly destroyed vast swathes of the ME over the course of decades, and it continues. No offense, but consider the banality of your opening remark "might get them upset." Do you understand the scale of the destruction?
I think if you look you'll find terrorism with a ME flavour was around much beyond just 'the past decade or so', given that 9/11 was more than a decade ago and OBL's first Trade Centre bombing was in the early 1990's. The activities of the PLO go back waaaaaay beyond...With the advent of social media, it is a no-brainer that this would happen. Again, where does the likes of ISIS get all of these young men? What drives them? Even the CIA openly admits that blowback accounts for much of it.
Those who want to believe it is purely the result of an "evil" religion do so so that they can sleep better at night. We have utterly destroyed vast swathes of the ME over the course of decades, and it continues. No offense, but consider the banality of your opening remark "might get them upset." Do you understand the scale of the destruction?
As for the scale of destruction, well Hiroshima and Nagasaki and Dresden and Coventry and Antwerp and....you get the picture? The modern inhabitants of those destroyed cities are not joining up to fight their destroyers in 2016, are they?
Whilst parts of the ME have been hit badly, others have developed astonishingly well.
As for Syria/ISIS, there was a piece (in the Times iirc) recently pointing to post invasion Iraq as the pivotal moment in ISIS creation. It was to do with the imprisonment of large numbers of Ba'ath party members some of whom were military, others civil servants etc who then networked (there was little else to do) and established the basis of a new force, allied to their branch of Islam.
I'm not sure why they take on the strict form of observance - maybe it's just a front to attract maximum attention and gullible followers. What they do have is experience in running things.
Budflicker said:
Good, whats you're take on my earlier point regarding the Russians and US being able to roll 5-6 Divisions of heavy armour with air support through Syria and mop up the ISIS grip on the area, yet they all seem very reluctant to do anything other than arm opposing sides in a drawn out proxy war which only makes the Syrian people suffer more.
They could with ease, although the US and Russia are about as far apart as they've been since the end of The Cold War, so it's unlikely. That's the main problem, if either the US or Russia rolled in, then the other would take offence and there'd be lots of paper waving and shouting at the UN. The other issue who would fill the void. Russia likes Assad, nobody else does, so that's another stumbling block over who stays in power / takes over when ISIS get wiped out. The other tough part is how do you eradicate guerillas? Putin did a load of posturing and claimed to have wiped it out within weeks of starting his bombing campaign. That's a false claim and they came back a bit stronger arguably.
Then you've got the next challenge that if they get wiped out in Syria, then all the little lone wolves and cells get mobilised and we get more random carnage in Europe. Worse still a new group starts up. 10-15 years ago it was Al Qaeda who were the big baddies, now it's ISIS and we hear nothing of Al Qaeda.
Finally, the cost. Does any country's leader want to start another war on foreign soil after the s
tstorm that followed Iraq and Afghanistan. Plus there's no oil, wink, wink, nudge, nudge say no more (to maintain the Monty Python skits). snorky782 said:
I wasn't disagreeing with you, other than on one bit and I certainly wasn't doing it argumentative, or at leas that wasn't my intention.
I agree there's a problem with ISIS and fundamentalism. I won't ever deny that.
I'm only avinalarf ,snorky.I agree there's a problem with ISIS and fundamentalism. I won't ever deny that.
BTW you could start by changing your nickname,I mean......snorky....it's a bit weird.
It's not very loveable is it....I mean ....what do you say when you're chatting up a gal ?
" Hi I'm Snorky,can I buy you a drink".
and another piece of bad news from Syria 
Maternity ward this time...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-369260...
Maternity ward this time...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-369260...
avinalarf said:
I'm only avinalarf ,snorky.
BTW you could start by changing your nickname,I mean......snorky....it's a bit weird.
It's not very loveable is it....I mean ....what do you say when you're chatting up a gal ?
" Hi I'm Snorky,can I buy you a drink".
It's the Banana Splits man. My bike racing teammate is on here as Fleegle, another Banana Split. BTW you could start by changing your nickname,I mean......snorky....it's a bit weird.
It's not very loveable is it....I mean ....what do you say when you're chatting up a gal ?
" Hi I'm Snorky,can I buy you a drink".
Tra la la, la la la laaaaaa, tra la la, la la la laaaaaaa
irocfan said:
and another piece of bad news from Syria
Maternity ward this time...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-369260...
An air strike, apparently. Adds more difficulty for the West getting involved whether it was TheUS or Russia that did it. Maternity ward this time...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-369260...
irocfan said:
and another piece of bad news from Syria
Maternity ward this time...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-369260...
Absolutely dreadful news, but sadly predictable & not shocking.....Maternity ward this time...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-369260...
I do wonder though, who would want to have children in the middle of this hell?????
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