Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
K-Cee said:
Maybe we are all going to hell in a hand cart, makes you think though ?
http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/717446/russia-...
I earn my living as a Military Historian.http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/717446/russia-...
We are in a very dangerous moment in History. Edging pretty close towards 1961 Cuban Missile Crisis, 1938/39 territory.
Click onto the Daily Mail what the masses are fed...The Apprentice is nasty and Kung Fu Heron...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/index.html
Keep em just bright enough to work the machines and become an accountant or something, watch the news and read a ´´quality´´ newspaper with big words in...but not bright enough to actually understand what is going on. It is the same the world over.
AreOut said:
Scoobman said:
I earn my living as a Military Historian.
We are in a very dangerous moment in History. Edging pretty close towards 1961 Cuban Missile Crisis, 1938/39 territory.
that's what I'm telling people, but they just seem too busy chasing pokemons...We are in a very dangerous moment in History. Edging pretty close towards 1961 Cuban Missile Crisis, 1938/39 territory.
What's the 'middle', and what's the 'end'?
{Doomsdays excluded, there would be little point if that's all that was achieved)
The problem is, is that land mass situated between the two powers at loggerheads is Europe and the Near/Middle East.
We are the potential battle ground. Look at WW2 and the resulting Cold war, a war between three ideologies, the war between the US Market Capitalism, Russian Communism and German Fascism. Europe and the Near East were the primary battle grounds.
No, it may well not come to war. But Europe and the Middle East is the land mass between, it often where big wars of recent centuries have occurred.
As an aside which plays into this -
The big unknown is Germany, a member of NATO but relying on Russian Energy Imports...which way they will eventually go. The nightmare scenario for the US is that they move more towards a Russian Orbit. That would create a pact that would end US dreams of dominance. One gets the impression the Germans don´t know themselves.
There is also seems to be a underlying economic war between the US and Germany, that blows hot and cold. 14Billion fine by Germany...(sorry the EU)to Apple. A few weeks later a US fine to Deutsche Bank...erm 14Billion.
We are the potential battle ground. Look at WW2 and the resulting Cold war, a war between three ideologies, the war between the US Market Capitalism, Russian Communism and German Fascism. Europe and the Near East were the primary battle grounds.
No, it may well not come to war. But Europe and the Middle East is the land mass between, it often where big wars of recent centuries have occurred.
As an aside which plays into this -
The big unknown is Germany, a member of NATO but relying on Russian Energy Imports...which way they will eventually go. The nightmare scenario for the US is that they move more towards a Russian Orbit. That would create a pact that would end US dreams of dominance. One gets the impression the Germans don´t know themselves.
There is also seems to be a underlying economic war between the US and Germany, that blows hot and cold. 14Billion fine by Germany...(sorry the EU)to Apple. A few weeks later a US fine to Deutsche Bank...erm 14Billion.
Scoobman said:
The problem is, is that land mass situated between the two powers at loggerheads is Europe and the Near/Middle East.
We are the potential battle ground. Look at WW2 and the resulting Cold war, a war between three ideologies, the war between the US Market Capitalism, Russian Communism and German Fascism. Europe and the Near East were the primary battle grounds.
No, it may well not come to war. But Europe and the Middle East is the land mass between, it often where big wars of recent centuries have occurred.
As an aside which plays into this -
The big unknown is Germany, a member of NATO but relying on Russian Energy Imports...which way they will eventually go. The nightmare scenario for the US is that they move more towards a Russian Orbit. That would create a pact that would end US dreams of dominance. One gets the impression the Germans don´t know themselves.
There is also seems to be a underlying economic war between the US and Germany, that blows hot and cold. 14Billion fine by Germany...(sorry the EU)to Apple. A few weeks later a US fine to Deutsche Bank...erm 14Billion.
I'm paying attention..... And doing a bit of the out-of-the-box thinking. We are the potential battle ground. Look at WW2 and the resulting Cold war, a war between three ideologies, the war between the US Market Capitalism, Russian Communism and German Fascism. Europe and the Near East were the primary battle grounds.
No, it may well not come to war. But Europe and the Middle East is the land mass between, it often where big wars of recent centuries have occurred.
As an aside which plays into this -
The big unknown is Germany, a member of NATO but relying on Russian Energy Imports...which way they will eventually go. The nightmare scenario for the US is that they move more towards a Russian Orbit. That would create a pact that would end US dreams of dominance. One gets the impression the Germans don´t know themselves.
There is also seems to be a underlying economic war between the US and Germany, that blows hot and cold. 14Billion fine by Germany...(sorry the EU)to Apple. A few weeks later a US fine to Deutsche Bank...erm 14Billion.
Scoobman said:
The problem is, is that land mass situated between the two powers at loggerheads is Europe and the Near/Middle East.
We are the potential battle ground. Look at WW2 and the resulting Cold war, a war between three ideologies, the war between the US Market Capitalism, Russian Communism and German Fascism. Europe and the Near East were the primary battle grounds.
No, it may well not come to war. But Europe and the Middle East is the land mass between, it often where big wars of recent centuries have occurred.
As an aside which plays into this -
The big unknown is Germany, a member of NATO but relying on Russian Energy Imports...which way they will eventually go. The nightmare scenario for the US is that they move more towards a Russian Orbit. That would create a pact that would end US dreams of dominance. One gets the impression the Germans don´t know themselves.
There is also seems to be a underlying economic war between the US and Germany, that blows hot and cold. 14Billion fine by Germany...(sorry the EU)to Apple. A few weeks later a US fine to Deutsche Bank...erm 14Billion.
I doubt the Germans will turn towards Russia, if someone recognizes difference between West and East it's them, their country has been separated for decades and the difference was night and day between their western and eastern part.We are the potential battle ground. Look at WW2 and the resulting Cold war, a war between three ideologies, the war between the US Market Capitalism, Russian Communism and German Fascism. Europe and the Near East were the primary battle grounds.
No, it may well not come to war. But Europe and the Middle East is the land mass between, it often where big wars of recent centuries have occurred.
As an aside which plays into this -
The big unknown is Germany, a member of NATO but relying on Russian Energy Imports...which way they will eventually go. The nightmare scenario for the US is that they move more towards a Russian Orbit. That would create a pact that would end US dreams of dominance. One gets the impression the Germans don´t know themselves.
There is also seems to be a underlying economic war between the US and Germany, that blows hot and cold. 14Billion fine by Germany...(sorry the EU)to Apple. A few weeks later a US fine to Deutsche Bank...erm 14Billion.
Scoobman said:
Well is refreshing to see someone who has a grasp of the real situation. So respect to you QuantumTokoloshi.
It seems so many people, including some people on here, buy into the one sided carefully selected facts the British Bulls
t Corporation and the like pump out and just take it at face value.
I am not sure if I have posted this. But this is good overview of the situation.
https://medium.com/deepconnections/prevailing-gray...
That is a genuinely excellent review of the situation, and articulates exactly the points I have been clumsily trying to make, please can someone send that to Obama and John O. Brennan ASAP!It seems so many people, including some people on here, buy into the one sided carefully selected facts the British Bulls
t Corporation and the like pump out and just take it at face value.I am not sure if I have posted this. But this is good overview of the situation.
https://medium.com/deepconnections/prevailing-gray...
The situation is precarious, and deescalation will take some very fancy footwork, I am almost of the opinion that due to the number of players in this game, it is almost impossible to do, without something going horribly wrong, UN convoy, bombing of Syrian or Russian troops, bombing of US troops or another SU-24 incident or some manufactured WMD plot.
The only way to do it is talk, and then confidence building action, currently the major protagonists are not even in the same room, with lots of very unstable groups with hands on triggers and own agendas vastly different from a peaceful resolution of this conflict. In fact, some would prefer a proper war, USA taking on Iran would be the ideal result.
Ask yourself this, where will this end? Russia has doubled down and are not going anywhere. The USA are currently in flux , with the presidential elections but the new president will want to show they are "tough" on the Russkies. What is the outcome of that ? Nothing good that I can see.
Two years ago, before Russia got involved, we could have fixed this by arranging for a nice retirement for Assad somewhere. It would have been everybody against ISIS, the government forces included, and then afterwards there's still a state apparatus left to hold an election and run a government.
Now we're in a situation where the only stable solution is to let Assad win, and we have to tell Putin that Assad has won. The Kurds and the free Syrians will be brutally murdered, but that's where we are now.
Now we're in a situation where the only stable solution is to let Assad win, and we have to tell Putin that Assad has won. The Kurds and the free Syrians will be brutally murdered, but that's where we are now.
Russian irbm being deployed close to Estonia as we speak
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/07/russ...
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/07/russ...
Edited by Sylvaforever on Sunday 9th October 02:24
Sylvaforever said:
Russian irbm being deployed close to Estonia as we speak
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/07/russ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6U9T3R3EQghttps://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/oct/07/russ...
Edited by Sylvaforever on Sunday 9th October 02:24
Edited by davepoth on Sunday 9th October 09:57
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Not sure where this 18 number comes from?
It is the number of trucks destroyed in the UN aid convoy as reported in the press; some reports say 17 but 1 either way makes not much difference, my point being it's tricky to destroy 17-18 trucks with 4 Hellfire or 4 LGBs.davepoth said:
Two years ago, before Russia got involved, we could have fixed this by arranging for a nice retirement for Assad somewhere. It would have been everybody against ISIS, the government forces included, and then afterwards there's still a state apparatus left to hold an election and run a government.
Now we're in a situation where the only stable solution is to let Assad win, and we have to tell Putin that Assad has won. The Kurds and the free Syrians will be brutally murdered, but that's where we are now.
Like the nice retirement Saddam got? Or Gaddafi and his family? Now we're in a situation where the only stable solution is to let Assad win, and we have to tell Putin that Assad has won. The Kurds and the free Syrians will be brutally murdered, but that's where we are now.
How about, and this just an idea, not supporting jihadists, those " free Syrians", who like to chop off heads, burn people alive, who happen to like shooting and blowing up Europeans, assist Assad to clear them out.
Stop baiting the Russians with talk of war, get them on side, to ensure a kurdish massacre does not happen, unlikely in any case, and a federalised Syrian state.
Get Turkey out of Syria, Funny how they are the people dropping ordnance on the Kurds not Assad. A NATO nation not the Russians or Syrians, but that is merely inconvenient detail.
None of this mess would of happened without the help of our true and faithful Salafist allies, pumping arms, weapons and money into Syria, or the creation of a breading ground of crazies in Iraq. Who were never there before 2003.
That must also been Russian fault. They sure do get around.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 9th October 09:15
hidetheelephants said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Not sure where this 18 number comes from?
It is the number of trucks destroyed in the UN aid convoy as reported in the press; some reports say 17 but 1 either way makes not much difference, my point being it's tricky to destroy 17-18 trucks with 4 Hellfire or 4 LGBs.Making it look like the Russians or Syrians, aka the "Assad chemical weapon Attack" is like PR gold for the "Moderately Islamic fundamentalists".
Let's see the NATO drone footage, but I suspect that will never be released voluntarily, cannot have our newest and best "Allies" to be shown for the absolute maniacs they are.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 9th October 09:12
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Like the nice retirement Saddam got? Or Gaddafi and his family?
How about, and this just an idea, not supporting jihadists, those " free Syrians", who like to chop off heads, burn people alive, who happen to like shooting and blowing up Europeans, assist Assad to clear them out.
Stop baiting the Russians with talk of war, get them on side, to ensure a kurdish massacre does not happen, unlikely in any case, and a federalised Syrian state.
Get Turkey out of Syria, Funny how they are the people dropping ordnance on the Kurds not Assad. A NATO nation not the Russians or Syrians, but that is merely inconvenient detail.
None of this mess would of happened without the help of our true and faithful Salafist allies, pumping arms, weapons and money into Syria, or the creation of a breading ground of crazies in Iraq. Who were never there before 2003.
That must also been Russian fault. They sure do get around.
I think you misunderstood me.How about, and this just an idea, not supporting jihadists, those " free Syrians", who like to chop off heads, burn people alive, who happen to like shooting and blowing up Europeans, assist Assad to clear them out.
Stop baiting the Russians with talk of war, get them on side, to ensure a kurdish massacre does not happen, unlikely in any case, and a federalised Syrian state.
Get Turkey out of Syria, Funny how they are the people dropping ordnance on the Kurds not Assad. A NATO nation not the Russians or Syrians, but that is merely inconvenient detail.
None of this mess would of happened without the help of our true and faithful Salafist allies, pumping arms, weapons and money into Syria, or the creation of a breading ground of crazies in Iraq. Who were never there before 2003.
That must also been Russian fault. They sure do get around.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 9th October 09:15
Putin has played a blinder here. He's made massive geopolitical gains while we've just stood and watched on the sidelines.
as I said, two years ago when Assad was in real trouble and Russia weren't so deeply involved an arrangement could have been reached where we all (Russia, Iran, Turkey, Kurdistan, NATO) fought on the same side against ISIS and the rest of the Islamists - on the proviso that once it was all finished Assad went off and opened a dentist's surgery in Tehran and there could be elections in a stabilised Syria. Distasteful, but it would have been orders of magnitude better than what we have now.
The only thing we can do now to get a resolution that doesn't involve antagonising Russia further is to butt out and allow them free rein to resolve matters to their satisfaction.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Let's see the NATO drone footage, but I suspect that will never be released voluntarily, cannot have our newest and best "Allies" to be shown for the absolute maniacs they are.
And how do you get on demanding to see Russian military drone footage ?Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 9th October 09:12
Scoobman said:
I am not sure if I have posted this. But this is good overview of the situation.
https://medium.com/deepconnections/prevailing-gray...
Good...? Bloody terrifying.https://medium.com/deepconnections/prevailing-gray...
Basically, in Syria we're playing with a fire we have no chance of putting out. Russia holds all the cards and will do anything to protect Assad.
Anything 'we' do, or more terrifyingly the next US President who will no doubt want to show how strong they are, will provoke an already pre-provoked and paranoid Putin, and the chances of the brown stuff hitting the wirly thing escalate beyond anybody's control.
Time to cut our losses me thinks. Accept Assad is going now where and slink off into the distance.
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