Meanwhile, In Syria
Discussion
Following Russia's tourettes-like vetoing in the UNSC, which would have put an end to the bombing of Aleppo (or what's left of it), it'll be open season for the Russian and Syrian Air Forces now.
We can fully expect the massacre to escalate, and, barring an open threat from the US to stop or we'll intervene, the rest of the world will just have to watch with a disapproving look on it's face.
Syria will shortly become a FOB for the Russian military, just over the southern border of a NATO country, right on the coastline of the Eastern Med, and within the neighbourhood of the West's main source of gas and oil.
And Putin worried about the West trying to befriend Ukraine.
We can fully expect the massacre to escalate, and, barring an open threat from the US to stop or we'll intervene, the rest of the world will just have to watch with a disapproving look on it's face.
Syria will shortly become a FOB for the Russian military, just over the southern border of a NATO country, right on the coastline of the Eastern Med, and within the neighbourhood of the West's main source of gas and oil.
And Putin worried about the West trying to befriend Ukraine.
Stickyfinger said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Let's see the NATO drone footage, but I suspect that will never be released voluntarily, cannot have our newest and best "Allies" to be shown for the absolute maniacs they are.
And how do you get on demanding to see Russian military drone footage ?Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 9th October 09:12
Cobnapint said:
Following Russia's tourettes-like vetoing in the UNSC, which would have put an end to the bombing of Aleppo (or what's left of it), it'll be open season for the Russian and Syrian Air Forces now.
We can fully expect the massacre to escalate, and, barring an open threat from the US to stop or we'll intervene, the rest of the world will just have to watch with a disapproving look on it's face.
Syria will shortly become a FOB for the Russian military, just over the southern border of a NATO country, right on the coastline of the Eastern Med, and within the neighbourhood of the West's main source of gas and oil.
And Putin worried about the West trying to befriend Ukraine.
It always was FOB for Russia, with an air and naval base. Nothing new there, or is only the USA and NATO allowed to have 100s of military bases elsewhere in the world ?We can fully expect the massacre to escalate, and, barring an open threat from the US to stop or we'll intervene, the rest of the world will just have to watch with a disapproving look on it's face.
Syria will shortly become a FOB for the Russian military, just over the southern border of a NATO country, right on the coastline of the Eastern Med, and within the neighbourhood of the West's main source of gas and oil.
And Putin worried about the West trying to befriend Ukraine.
When are you going to accept Russia is a peer threat, in fact, Russia can destroy the UK and USA, several times over, unlike the previous adventures in Afghanistan, Iraq or Libya, where a third world nation is levelled and a great victory is announced. The modern equivalent of Rorke's Drift. Afghanistan is probably more like the battle of Isandlwana.
You seem more upset that the USA and NATO cannot just do as it likes in Syria, impose their will, bomb at will, gift that high explosive democracy and captured state special offer, that Iraq had to endure.
You would rather support Islamic terrorists, who probably hate the West more than they hate Assad, than work with the Russians. I no longer need to wonder how wars get started, you illustrate it perfectly. We look back at WWI in amazement, how it got the point of men, family members, fathers , brothers in trenches being slaughtered, and wonder how could people let it get to that point. Here is the reason, illustrated above.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 9th October 14:16
Not upset at all that NATO can't call the shots - I'm actually agreeing with you. Syria is a lost cause, we should write it off asap. Putin has out manoeuvred the West, end of.
I've always accepted Russia is a peer threat. We sat on our laurels for decades after so called cold war 'victory' - Russia rebuilt it's military without anybody blinking an eye.
Putin could march westwards this afternoon if he wanted to.
I've always accepted Russia is a peer threat. We sat on our laurels for decades after so called cold war 'victory' - Russia rebuilt it's military without anybody blinking an eye.
Putin could march westwards this afternoon if he wanted to.
Cobnapint said:
Not upset at all that NATO can't call the shots - I'm actually agreeing with you. Syria is a lost cause, we should write it off asap. Putin has out manoeuvred the West, end of.
I've always accepted Russia is a peer threat. We sat on our laurels for decades after so called cold war 'victory' - Russia rebuilt it's military without anybody blinking an eye.
Putin could march westwards this afternoon if he wanted to.
They marched once and that didn't end well for them as they just angered all polish, czech ukrainian latvian and other people who now mostly despise Russia.I've always accepted Russia is a peer threat. We sat on our laurels for decades after so called cold war 'victory' - Russia rebuilt it's military without anybody blinking an eye.
Putin could march westwards this afternoon if he wanted to.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
You would rather support Islamic terrorists, who probably hate the West more than they hate Assad, than work with the Russians.
Crap. You're losing sight of how the Syrian civil war started, Assad using his army to quell pro-democracy protests on the streets of Damascus and Aleppo.They weren't branded Islamic terrorists until other groups joined in later.
And as for 'working' with Russia. We thought we were, against ISIS, but Putin had other ideas. You think the West is going to agree to supporting the bombing of Aleppo by a mafia state, which in turn helps keep a murdering dictator in power. It goes against all the West stands for. Have a word.
Cobnapint said:
You think the West is going to agree to supporting the bombing of Aleppo by a mafia state, which in turn helps keep a murdering dictator in power. It goes against all the West stands for.
Jesus wept, when are people going to realise that the west doesn't give a f
k about civilians. It's just an excuse.Cobnapint said:
Not upset at all that NATO can't call the shots - I'm actually agreeing with you. Syria is a lost cause, we should write it off asap. Putin has out manoeuvred the West, end of.
I've always accepted Russia is a peer threat. We sat on our laurels for decades after so called cold war 'victory' - Russia rebuilt it's military without anybody blinking an eye.
Putin could march westwards this afternoon if he wanted to.
I misunderstood your answer, I apologise. I still do not understand your animosity towards Russia though. Putin can be worked with, or at least, as far as Russia's interests goes, He has oil and Gas to sell, we want to buy it. Much like the cooperation with the ISS (Not the bearded guys with guns) rocket launches, Russia can be a country that can be worked with.I've always accepted Russia is a peer threat. We sat on our laurels for decades after so called cold war 'victory' - Russia rebuilt it's military without anybody blinking an eye.
Putin could march westwards this afternoon if he wanted to.
Whatever you think of the protagonists, In my book the US and Russia are both as ruthless as each other, I think this clip sums up why Russia has outmaneuvered the States.
John Simpson tries to be all elder BBC statesman like and tries to put Putin on the ropes. Putin very calmly verbally kicks him around the room, then head buts him and then puts one in the nape of his neck.
Although undoubtedly the US have highly intelligent people working for them. You get the impression that Putin is in a higher intellectual league than many of his high end American counter parts.
watch the clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwWMaJJ_MSg
As a comparison here is a different level of performance from John Kirby. The woman that asks the question is from RT, and the clip is a Russian propaganda dig at the US. But illustrates a difference, compare with the clip above
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpLhwcJH7-o
John Simpson tries to be all elder BBC statesman like and tries to put Putin on the ropes. Putin very calmly verbally kicks him around the room, then head buts him and then puts one in the nape of his neck.
Although undoubtedly the US have highly intelligent people working for them. You get the impression that Putin is in a higher intellectual league than many of his high end American counter parts.
watch the clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwWMaJJ_MSg
As a comparison here is a different level of performance from John Kirby. The woman that asks the question is from RT, and the clip is a Russian propaganda dig at the US. But illustrates a difference, compare with the clip above
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpLhwcJH7-o
Edited by Scoobman on Sunday 9th October 18:14
Another reason that the US wants to prolong the bloodshed and prop up defenders of Jihadi nutter (sorry correction) moderate rebel Aleppo, instead of letting Assad and the Russians roll over it pretty quickly could be this.
https://geopolitics.co/2016/09/24/russia-bombs-30-...
It has not been confirmed, it has appeared on several sources. But was supposed the retaliation for the NATO/US air strike against Assad's troops.
If Allepo falls it could be a bit embarrassing as to who is found there helping some of ``Dave Camerons 70,000 moderate rebels`` Perhaps they can be secreted out.
As far as Germany goes, and I know Germany very very well, they are very very aggressive economically but conversely given their past wear the hat of the dominant country of Europe with a bit of an uncomfortable reluctance. They are caught in the middle.
This is relevant because............Assad was and is caught in the middle.
The US say to Assad sign the pipeline deal to cut Putin off at the jugular. The Russians put Assad under much pressure not to sign and back their Iranian pipeline. He had to make a choice. He chose his traditional backer Russia. Bang he was in middle and look what happened to Syria.
Remember it is a big game between powerful Psychopaths and we all expendable.
https://geopolitics.co/2016/09/24/russia-bombs-30-...
It has not been confirmed, it has appeared on several sources. But was supposed the retaliation for the NATO/US air strike against Assad's troops.
If Allepo falls it could be a bit embarrassing as to who is found there helping some of ``Dave Camerons 70,000 moderate rebels`` Perhaps they can be secreted out.
As far as Germany goes, and I know Germany very very well, they are very very aggressive economically but conversely given their past wear the hat of the dominant country of Europe with a bit of an uncomfortable reluctance. They are caught in the middle.
This is relevant because............Assad was and is caught in the middle.
The US say to Assad sign the pipeline deal to cut Putin off at the jugular. The Russians put Assad under much pressure not to sign and back their Iranian pipeline. He had to make a choice. He chose his traditional backer Russia. Bang he was in middle and look what happened to Syria.
Remember it is a big game between powerful Psychopaths and we all expendable.
Scoobman said:
Whatever you think of the protagonists, In my book the US and Russia are both as ruthless as each other, I think this clip sums up why Russia has outmaneuvered the States.
John Simpson tries to be all elder BBC statesman like and tries to put Putin on the ropes. Putin very calmly verbally kicks him around the room, then head buts him and then puts on in the nape of his neck.
Although undoubtedly the US have highly intelligent people working for them. You get the impression that Putin is in a higher intellectual league than many of his high end American counter parts.
watch the clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwWMaJJ_MSg
Well, Putin thinks he's put him down by spewing his 'it's not my fault gov' and 'we haven't invaded anybody' paranoia routine.John Simpson tries to be all elder BBC statesman like and tries to put Putin on the ropes. Putin very calmly verbally kicks him around the room, then head buts him and then puts on in the nape of his neck.
Although undoubtedly the US have highly intelligent people working for them. You get the impression that Putin is in a higher intellectual league than many of his high end American counter parts.
watch the clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwWMaJJ_MSg
Edited by Cobnapint on Sunday 9th October 18:39
Cobnapint said:
Scoobman said:
Whatever you think of the protagonists, In my book the US and Russia are both as ruthless as each other, I think this clip sums up why Russia has outmaneuvered the States.
John Simpson tries to be all elder BBC statesman like and tries to put Putin on the ropes. Putin very calmly verbally kicks him around the room, then head buts him and then puts on in the nape of his neck.
Although undoubtedly the US have highly intelligent people working for them. You get the impression that Putin is in a higher intellectual league than many of his high end American counter parts.
watch the clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwWMaJJ_MSg
Well, Putin thinks he's put him down by spewing his 'it's not my fault gov' and 'we haven't invaded anybody' paranoia routine.John Simpson tries to be all elder BBC statesman like and tries to put Putin on the ropes. Putin very calmly verbally kicks him around the room, then head buts him and then puts on in the nape of his neck.
Although undoubtedly the US have highly intelligent people working for them. You get the impression that Putin is in a higher intellectual league than many of his high end American counter parts.
watch the clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwWMaJJ_MSg
Edited by Cobnapint on Sunday 9th October 18:39
Its very easy to verify his statements. Really it is. Much like with the claims about how Assad is punishing people in Syria and refusing them aid when in reality the reason they are not getting Aid is because once again the US has imposed sanctions meaning no one is allowed to provide Syria with the aid they need.
Much like with America flying into and bombing in Syria. They do not have Assad the legitimate rulers permission to do so. They are in breach of numerous international laws but they continue to do so. Yet they dictate to Russia and make Russia out to be the bad guys when Russia is there with Assad's permission.
Cobnapint said:
Crap. You're losing sight of how the Syrian civil war started, Assad using his army to quell pro-democracy protests on the streets of Damascus and Aleppo.
They weren't branded Islamic terrorists until other groups joined in later.
And as for 'working' with Russia. We thought we were, against ISIS, but Putin had other ideas. You think the West is going to agree to supporting the bombing of Aleppo by a mafia state, which in turn helps keep a murdering dictator in power. It goes against all the West stands for. Have a word.
why should s. arabian and bahrain dictators have the right to suppress their people and syrian wouldn't?! If they are allowed then allow all of them not just those who are "allies".They weren't branded Islamic terrorists until other groups joined in later.
And as for 'working' with Russia. We thought we were, against ISIS, but Putin had other ideas. You think the West is going to agree to supporting the bombing of Aleppo by a mafia state, which in turn helps keep a murdering dictator in power. It goes against all the West stands for. Have a word.
QuantumTokoloshi said:
hidetheelephants said:
QuantumTokoloshi said:
Not sure where this 18 number comes from?
It is the number of trucks destroyed in the UN aid convoy as reported in the press; some reports say 17 but 1 either way makes not much difference, my point being it's tricky to destroy 17-18 trucks with 4 Hellfire or 4 LGBs.Making it look like the Russians or Syrians, aka the "Assad chemical weapon Attack" is like PR gold for the "Moderately Islamic fundamentalists".
Let's see the NATO drone footage, but I suspect that will never be released voluntarily, cannot have our newest and best "Allies" to be shown for the absolute maniacs they are.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 9th October 09:12
hidetheelephants said:
I'm not entirely convinced but the argument presented ties together the picture evidence coherently. As for the 'cui bono?' issue, never assign to malice that which can be reasonably attributed to incompetence.
Bellingcat is not the most objective news site, on the Syrian conflict, but I agree, neither side is coming out of this incident with a whole lot of credibility.Cobnapint said:
Scoobman said:
Whatever you think of the protagonists, In my book the US and Russia are both as ruthless as each other, I think this clip sums up why Russia has outmaneuvered the States.
John Simpson tries to be all elder BBC statesman like and tries to put Putin on the ropes. Putin very calmly verbally kicks him around the room, then head buts him and then puts on in the nape of his neck.
Although undoubtedly the US have highly intelligent people working for them. You get the impression that Putin is in a higher intellectual league than many of his high end American counter parts.
watch the clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwWMaJJ_MSg
Well, Putin thinks he's put him down by spewing his 'it's not my fault gov' and 'we haven't invaded anybody' paranoia routine.John Simpson tries to be all elder BBC statesman like and tries to put Putin on the ropes. Putin very calmly verbally kicks him around the room, then head buts him and then puts on in the nape of his neck.
Although undoubtedly the US have highly intelligent people working for them. You get the impression that Putin is in a higher intellectual league than many of his high end American counter parts.
watch the clip
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwWMaJJ_MSg
Edited by Cobnapint on Sunday 9th October 18:39
A pragmatic approach to Russia will work, again. Russia has as much to fear from Islamic fundamentalism as the west, yet are treated as an adversary, rather than a potential ally.
A great example of this, the invasion of Afghanistan. The Iranians were heavily involved in the US invasion of Afghanistan. Especially in the North. Not something Mr Bush wanted advertised, working with the axis of evil! But which part of Afghanistan is relatively stable now? Have a guess.
Reducing your options due to idiotic ideologies, does not make for good foreign policy. This is something the UK used to do very well. Not so much now.
It is not surprising that these exchanges are not in the Mainstream media, it may just get people asking difficult questions, rather than the latest scandal on strictly come ice wrestling.
Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 10th October 05:18
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