Meanwhile, In Syria

[Driller]

Rogue86 said:

So can I assume that your view of soldiers is the same regardless of the conflict or which side they're on? Would you also go as far to say that all soldiers are inherently bad people? Perhaps the way you've worded it inadvertently suggests that those killed/injured almost deserve it.

I'd also be careful about so forcefully galvanising your opinion, stating it as fact. As someone who has been on both sides of the fence, you're only ever aware of the information you absolutely need to be made aware of.

I don''t know whether it's deliberate or not but your comments have a certain air of condescending disapproval and menacing undertones which I don't much care for.

[Rogue86]

Driller said:

I don''t know whether it's deliberate or not but your comments have a certain air of condescending disapproval and menacing undertones which I don't much care for.

Well that's one way of not answering a question, good effort.

There's nothing condescending or disapproving about it, I'm just curious. Perhaps your opinion of my posts says more about you than it does me.

[Driller]

Rogue86 said:

Driller said:

I don''t know whether it's deliberate or not but your comments have a certain air of condescending disapproval and menacing undertones which I don't much care for.

I'm just curious

No you're not, you want to have a childish squabble by taking some sort of moral high ground.

Not interested.

[Short Grain]

Driller said:

Generals gathered in their masses,
just like witches at black masses.
Evil minds that plot destruction,
sorcerer of death's construction.
In the fields the bodies burning,
as the war machine keeps turning.
Death and hatred to mankind,
poisoning their brainwashed minds...Oh lord yeah!

Politicians hide themselves away
They only started the war
Why should they go out to fight?
They leave that role to the poor

Time will tell on their power minds
Making war just for fun
Treating people just like pawns in chess
Wait `till their judgement day comes, yeah!

Now in darkness, world stops turning,
ashes where the bodies burning.
No more war pigs have the power,
hand of god has struck the hour.
Day of judgement, god is calling,
on their knees the war pigs crawling.
Begging mercy for their sins,
Satan, laughing, spreads his wings...Oh lord, yeah!

Gonna have to dig the album out now. Haven't listened to it in ages! Can't beat Ozzy in his prime!!

[Driller]

Short Grain said:

Gonna have to dig the album out now. Haven't listened to it in ages! Can't beat Ozzy in his prime!!

[Rogue86]

Driller said:

No you're not, you want to have a childish squabble by taking some sort of moral high ground.

Not interested.

Haha, Jesus. I was actually interested in seeing where your stance lay on the galvanisation/villification of our armed forces in the UK and how that compares to WWII. If I'd realised you were going to be so evasive/precious about it then I wouldn't have bothered.

[Budflicker]

Rogue86 said:

Haha, Jesus. I was actually interested in seeing where your stance lay on the galvanisation/villification of our armed forces in the UK and how that compares to WWII. If I'd realised you were going to be so evasive/precious about it then I wouldn't have bothered.

I think what he means is you asked the question in such a loaded manner that you appear to be spooling for a tinterweb fight of the moral high ground.


My take on Drillers post is that no there is no glory or honour in soldiers going to war in Afganistan or Iraq, bravery and courage by the skip load yes, but let's be clear they were not there defending Great Britain but invading sovereign states to further the aims of the current government at the time.

That to me is Is not a worthy cause for our brave troops to lose their lives for. This in no way diminishes the respect I hold for our armed services but the cause is not worthy when directly compared to something like D-day or WW2 in general.

That's not the soldiers fault though, they are just doing their job, politicians however who send them to war while they and their sons eat dinner together in the big townhouse are a different thing altogether.

[Smiler.]

There was an item about this conflict on R4's From Our Own Correspondent earlier - 8 minutes in.

Was interesting, remarkable & difficult listening.

[BlackLabel]

It sounds like John Kerry has given up and admits his government is powerless to do anything more about the situation in Syria.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2016/09/30/worl...

I bet he can't wait to retire and hand the problem over to someone else.

[FN2TypeR]

Short Grain said:

Gonna have to dig the album out now. Haven't listened to it in ages! Can't beat Ozzy in his prime!!

I too love a bit of Sabbath, sadly Ozzy sounds shocking now, we saw them at Download Festival in June and he really struggled.

The NIB bassline played low n' slow though..... what a dirty, filthy noise

Sorry chaps

[Smiler.]

More very interesting points made by the first caller (Syrian living in the UK) on R4's Any Answers.

Find it very hard to argue with his stance.

[Cobnapint]

Smiler. said:

More very interesting points made by the first caller (Syrian living in the UK) on R4's Any Answers.

Find it very hard to argue with his stance.

Which is.....?

[Cobnapint]

Another hospital bombed.

There's gonna be trouble.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Cobnapint said:

Another hospital bombed.

There's gonna be trouble.

So what are they going to do to the Saudis then ? they are petrodollar buddies. No need to report that. The MSF hospital should have avoided those bombs in any case.

Oh wait, it is the Russian / Syrians, better do something quick. I wonder if the "Oops sorry to bomb your troops, and coordinate it with a Islamist offensive" excuse, can be used again?

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Sunday 2nd October 22:23

[Cobnapint]

I think you're probably 'allowed' one hospital, which could be put down as a genuine mistake.

'Two' in a short period goes down as deliberate, especially as one of the bombing partners has intimate geographical knowledge of one of his country's major cities.

But keep on excusing Putin and his sidekick.

[Rogue86]

Budflicker said:

This in no way diminishes the respect I hold for our armed services but the cause is not worthy when directly compared to something like D-day or WW2 in general.

That's really the point I wanted to lead to. I find it interesting that there is a nobility attached to previous conflicts (in particular WWII) and that people tend not to associate the relative freedom of information we have now with our general view regarding the world at that point in comparison to the present.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Cobnapint said:

I think you're probably 'allowed' one hospital, which could be put down as a genuine mistake.

'Two' in a short period goes down as deliberate, especially as one of the bombing partners has intimate geographical knowledge of one of his country's major cities.

But keep on excusing Putin and his sidekick.

I an not excusing him at all, no hospital should be bombed, ever, Russian, American or Saudi. You cannot excuse an action like that, accidental or not.

The hypocrisy of western politicians and the "unbiased" media, how actions can be over looked by some state actors but condemned by others.

The information war is as important as the armed conflict, and yet the belief in the western media unbiased truth persists. What is being said is as important, as what is not said, written or shown.

The default assumption is the Russian media is lying, which they are undoubtedly are, but solid belief in the Western media truthfulness or accuracy, even after the Iraq war exposed the lies being pedalled, and yet somehow it is different this time.

The out pouring of selective pseudo moral outrage is sickening.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 3rd October 09:54

[Liokault]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Cobnapint said:

I think you're probably 'allowed' one hospital, which could be put down as a genuine mistake.

'Two' in a short period goes down as deliberate, especially as one of the bombing partners has intimate geographical knowledge of one of his country's major cities.

But keep on excusing Putin and his sidekick.

I an not excusing him at all, no hospital should be bombed, ever, Russian, American or Saudi. You cannot excuse an action like that, accidental or not.

The hypocrisy of western politicians and the "unbiased" media, how actions can be over looked by some state actors but condemned by others.

The information war is as important as the armed conflict, and yet the belief in the western media unbiased truth persists. What is being said is as important, as what is not said, written or shown.

The default assumption is the Russian media is lying, which they are undoubtedly are, but solid belief in the Western media truthfulness or accuracy, even after the Iraq war exposed the lies being pedalled, and yet somehow it is different this time.

The out pouring of selective pseudo moral outrage is sickening.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 3rd October 09:54

Western media can be as partisan as it likes, while the west is not deliberately, repeatedly bombing hospitals and civilian areas.

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Liokault said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Cobnapint said:

I think you're probably 'allowed' one hospital, which could be put down as a genuine mistake.

'Two' in a short period goes down as deliberate, especially as one of the bombing partners has intimate geographical knowledge of one of his country's major cities.

But keep on excusing Putin and his sidekick.

I an not excusing him at all, no hospital should be bombed, ever, Russian, American or Saudi. You cannot excuse an action like that, accidental or not.

The hypocrisy of western politicians and the "unbiased" media, how actions can be over looked by some state actors but condemned by others.

The information war is as important as the armed conflict, and yet the belief in the western media unbiased truth persists. What is being said is as important, as what is not said, written or shown.

The default assumption is the Russian media is lying, which they are undoubtedly are, but solid belief in the Western media truthfulness or accuracy, even after the Iraq war exposed the lies being pedalled, and yet somehow it is different this time.

The out pouring of selective pseudo moral outrage is sickening.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 3rd October 09:54

Western media can be as partisan as it likes, while the west is not deliberately, repeatedly bombing hospitals and civilian areas.

Really? Perhaps ask the residents of Fallujah, when it became a free fire zone, to enable the US Marines to visit. But no, those nasty Russians are the only ones doing that. Notice the problem here ?

It is very lucky for the Libyan civilians and 500 000 Iraqi casualties that they were not officially targeted. I bet they feel much better for that.

Perhaps ask the Pakistani civilians still enjoying the delights of CIA drone attacks, but it is fine, as long as you explain it carefully. "Ooops Sorry we dismembered your entire family, you were within 500 miles of a terrorist, so you and your children are a valid target." Not official policy because officially they are not there.

Imaginary drone attacks then, those civilians dismembered themselves, cunning.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 3rd October 11:41

[Liokault]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Liokault said:

QuantumTokoloshi said:

Cobnapint said:

I think you're probably 'allowed' one hospital, which could be put down as a genuine mistake.

'Two' in a short period goes down as deliberate, especially as one of the bombing partners has intimate geographical knowledge of one of his country's major cities.

But keep on excusing Putin and his sidekick.

I an not excusing him at all, no hospital should be bombed, ever, Russian, American or Saudi. You cannot excuse an action like that, accidental or not.

The hypocrisy of western politicians and the "unbiased" media, how actions can be over looked by some state actors but condemned by others.

The information war is as important as the armed conflict, and yet the belief in the western media unbiased truth persists. What is being said is as important, as what is not said, written or shown.

The default assumption is the Russian media is lying, which they are undoubtedly are, but solid belief in the Western media truthfulness or accuracy, even after the Iraq war exposed the lies being pedalled, and yet somehow it is different this time.

The out pouring of selective pseudo moral outrage is sickening.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 3rd October 09:54

Western media can be as partisan as it likes, while the west is not deliberately, repeatedly bombing hospitals and civilian areas.

Really? Perhaps ask the residents of Fallujah, when it became a free fire zone, to enable the US Marines to visit. But no, those nasty Russians are the only ones doing that. Notice the problem here ?

It is very lucky for the Libyan civilians and 500 000 Iraqi casualties that they were not officially targeted. I bet they feel much better for that.

Perhaps ask the Pakistani civilians still enjoying the delights of CIA drone attacks, but it is fine, as long as you explain it carefully. "Ooops Sorry we dismembered your entire family, you were within 500 miles of a terrorist, so you and your children are a valid target." Not official policy because officially they are not there.

Imaginary drone attacks then, those civilians dismembered themselves, cunning.

Edited by QuantumTokoloshi on Monday 3rd October 11:41

All of your straw men don’t equate to the repeated, wilful targeting of hospitals and carpet bombing of civilian areas.