London Protests (riot) this weekend....
Discussion
Derek Smith said:
My point was that oxbridge gets massive subsidies which have just been increased. Science unis have had theirs cut. If we want lots of scientific graduates then there needs to be a level playing field.
The subsidies should not be to universities but to specific courses. We, as a country, need certain skills. We should invest in those specifically. Anyone else can pay the full price. There are many courses which seem of little use apart from generating lecturers for that specific subject.
Someone on this thread suggested that we used to create great engineers in this country. We need to create more.
You're probably right, I was just trying to defend Oxbridge from those who only seem to think Classics and suchlike.The subsidies should not be to universities but to specific courses. We, as a country, need certain skills. We should invest in those specifically. Anyone else can pay the full price. There are many courses which seem of little use apart from generating lecturers for that specific subject.
Someone on this thread suggested that we used to create great engineers in this country. We need to create more.
There appears, if mention in the MSM is a guide, to be little interest in engineering in the UK.
Certainly names do not trip off one's tongue, apart from those of times gone.
Of course, engineering projects are now much more team efforts so it's not so easy to ascribe whatever to an individual as the main inspiration.
DJC said:
Trommel said:
Has there ever been an Architecture A-Level? Is Greek & Roman literature Classics? Or did you take them in 1951 or something?
Classical studies incorporates all I listed, inc. a trip out to Athens and Olympia to study the architecture of the Acropolis and what remains of the temples at Olympia, which is why I can happily waxlyrical about Doric, Ionic and Corinthian columns, the scenes in high and low relief around the Parthenon and Pericles. Im more than happy to admit it fascinated me when I was younger and remains an interest, no matter how old fashioned it may seem.1994 not 1951 Im afraid and I turned down Oxbridge.
I will usually play the role of thick northern scum and play down high fallutin educashun, but Ill happily defend classics, it remains the subject Ive studied I look back on most fondly and I see no reason why I should have to let some retired plod think he knows better and piss all over it. Thoroughly enjoyed the subject and no it has nothing to do with being a 17yr old lad and given free run of the bar in some Greek hotel
I enjoyed it and still have some interest, plus the Latin was useful for increasing my awareness of grammar and the etymology of our language, and if someone wants to study this area to degree level then, imho, fine - as long as it is at their own expense.
I'm sorry, but I cannot see sufficient benefit to society from subjects like this to justify the tax payer having to fund it. If funding was determined by the anticipated usefulness of the subject then maybe more bright students would be nudged into choosing courses that maximise the likely benefits/ potential they have for us as a nation - the key being economically, if they expect financial help - rather than things of arcane interest or side value. How many classics students transition to professions like engineering? More likely to teaching the same subject or politics, law, journalism etc. which have more direct routes available anyway (assuming we think they are useful at all!)
Personally I think I have been of far more benefit to society/others through the work I do than I would have been if I'd left University with a degree in Classics as the direct skills/knowledge allow me to do a job on behalf of others that Classics would not have provided for me.
Lost_BMW said:
How many classics students transition to professions like engineering? More likely to teaching the same subject or politics, law, journalism etc. which have more direct routes available anyway (assuming we think they are useful at all!)
Well me for a start.The transition from classics to law and politics was once regarded as the primary route, indeed in politics the standard route is still classics-PPE-political career.
It has always been regarded as an excellent way in which to teach someone ordered, logical and clarity of thought. It gave ability to study bredth and depth and encouraged a wide range of thinking. As a subject, method and style of learning it has been around a couple of thousand years, I am afraid I rather lack the arrogance of modern man to think we know better now. Indeed I am rather more inclined to the view that since we have gone down the route of modern education "specialists" we seemed to have gone backwards rather than forwards in the quality of education provision in this country.
Actually Ill expand on this debate a little. There are frequent whinges and complaints about the state of modern British engineering, engineers and the lack of students studying engineering or science. This isnt true. There is still a highly qualified British engineering industry, highle efficient, productive and creative. There is a steady stream of engineering and scientific talent coming through the system and British engineers are still highly regarded...or arguably held in the highest regard of all...around the world. We export an awful lot of engineering talent, there are British engineers employed all over Europe and the world in many many companies. If you look inside the British engineeering world you will see that 99% of employees in the industry in Britain are actually British. Look outside Britain and you will be amazed at the difference, where there is a far bigger mix and how many Brits you will find employed. We are far far more successful in the engineering world than the doom mongerers would have you believe, we are just far more diverse than the media viewed norm.
Britain is still a nation of engineers and we are astonishingly successful.
WhoseGeneration said:
I was just trying to defend Oxbridge from those who only seem to think Classics and suchlike.
Point taken.When I was a kid, some weeks ago now, there was a fascination with engineering amongst my age group. It wasn't just the group I went with, but it was all in the papers as well. I suppose the space race helped no end but there are things just as exciting now.
When I built my ZX80 I took it to work.
I often think we need MPs with engineering degrees rather than law degrees. At least they'd work to a solution.
DJC said:
Actually Ill expand on this debate a little. There are frequent whinges and complaints about the state of modern British engineering, engineers and the lack of students studying engineering or science. This isnt true. There is still a highly qualified British engineering industry, highle efficient, productive and creative. There is a steady stream of engineering and scientific talent coming through the system and British engineers are still highly regarded...or arguably held in the highest regard of all...around the world. We export an awful lot of engineering talent, there are British engineers employed all over Europe and the world in many many companies. If you look inside the British engineeering world you will see that 99% of employees in the industry in Britain are actually British. Look outside Britain and you will be amazed at the difference, where there is a far bigger mix and how many Brits you will find employed. We are far far more successful in the engineering world than the doom mongerers would have you believe, we are just far more diverse than the media viewed norm.
Britain is still a nation of engineers and we are astonishingly successful.
Most of the engineers I went to uni with never ended up in the field and the same for my brothers class. Engineering doesn't pay. They took their talent to finance. I'd say your synopsis of the engineers who make it is right though.Britain is still a nation of engineers and we are astonishingly successful.
Oxford and Cambridge ( Cambridge is actually the best in the world) are two of the top centres in the world for scientific education and research. They also lead in arts subjects. This denigration of arts degrees is as silly as the old-fashioned snobbish denigration of science degrees was.
Just to use the example of lawyers: did you know that more than half of the revenue of the top ten law firms is earned outside the UK? Those firms are net exporters. I write this from Moscow where I am working on two IPOs for companies looking to list in London. We and the bankers involved don't manufacture things in factories in the Midlands, but we get foreigners to pay money into the British economy.
Just to use the example of lawyers: did you know that more than half of the revenue of the top ten law firms is earned outside the UK? Those firms are net exporters. I write this from Moscow where I am working on two IPOs for companies looking to list in London. We and the bankers involved don't manufacture things in factories in the Midlands, but we get foreigners to pay money into the British economy.
Buzz word said:
Most of the engineers I went to uni with never ended up in the field and the same for my brothers class. Engineering doesn't pay. They took their talent to finance. I'd say your synopsis of the engineers who make it is right though.
Both my self and my brother work in an engineering environment. However we've taken the time proven apprentice route that evey principle/senior engineer I work with has undertaken. NC --> HNC --> (future) HND/BEng --> MEng.Engineering does pay and we're rather good at it.
Buzz word said:
Most of the engineers I went to uni with never ended up in the field and the same for my brothers class. Engineering doesn't pay. They took their talent to finance. I'd say your synopsis of the engineers who make it is right though.
Engineering does pay. Im writing this from inside a meeting room in Vienna, where Im being paid rather well, waiting for a colleague to turn up. Of the money I earn, though I pay Swiss tax, 90% of it will be returned to the British economy, therefore being a net gain to the British economy.
DJC said:
Engineering does pay. Im writing this from inside a meeting room in Vienna, where Im being paid rather well, waiting for a colleague to turn up. Of the money I earn, though I pay Swiss tax, 90% of it will be returned to the British economy, therefore being a net gain to the British economy.
MorrisCRX said:
Both my self and my brother work in an engineering environment. However we've taken the time proven apprentice route that evey principle/senior engineer I work with has undertaken. NC --> HNC --> (future) HND/BEng --> MEng.
Engineering does pay and we're rather good at it.
I wish I worked where you two do then! It seems to me there is a very real ceiling at about 50k. To go through that it seems you need to go to management or have had a project managnemet role and leave for other sectors. I guess saying engineering doesn't pay at 50k may seem a little harsh but most people I know are on sub 40k and the guys out the sector with engineering quals are doing much better. Engineering does pay and we're rather good at it.
Buzz word said:
I wish I worked where you two do then! It seems to me there is a very real ceiling at about 50k. To go through that it seems you need to go to management or have had a project managnemet role and leave for other sectors. I guess saying engineering doesn't pay at 50k may seem a little harsh but most people I know are on sub 40k and the guys out the sector with engineering quals are doing much better.
Leave the country and seek positions abroad.Inside the UK, yes I agree with those figures.
Derek Smith said:
My point was that oxbridge gets massive subsidies which have just been increased. Science unis have had theirs cut.
Actually Oxbridge subsidizes every UK & EU undergraduate who go there because the money received from the government does not cover the cost of tutition, and still won't after tutition fees are raised to £9k a year.They are universities competing with the top echelon of world universities, but with a funding from the state set by a system that regards a degree in media studies from an ex-poly as being equivalent.
Derek Smith said:
Point taken.
When I was a kid, some weeks ago now, there was a fascination with engineering amongst my age group. It wasn't just the group I went with, but it was all in the papers as well. I suppose the space race helped no end but there are things just as exciting now.
When I built my ZX80 I took it to work.
I often think we need MPs with engineering degrees rather than law degrees. At least they'd work to a solution.
No Derek, you just have little knowledge of the engineering, science or the high tech industry and dont listen to those of us who do.When I was a kid, some weeks ago now, there was a fascination with engineering amongst my age group. It wasn't just the group I went with, but it was all in the papers as well. I suppose the space race helped no end but there are things just as exciting now.
When I built my ZX80 I took it to work.
I often think we need MPs with engineering degrees rather than law degrees. At least they'd work to a solution.
JagLover said:
Actually Oxbridge subsidizes every UK & EU undergraduate who go there because the money received from the government does not cover the cost of tutition, and still won't after tutition fees are raised to £9k a year.
They are universities competing with the top echelon of world universities, but with a funding from the state set by a system that regards a degree in media studies from an ex-poly as being equivalent.
Exactly. The idea that funding for Cambridge should be on the same level as for Westminster "University" is absurd.They are universities competing with the top echelon of world universities, but with a funding from the state set by a system that regards a degree in media studies from an ex-poly as being equivalent.
Zod said:
JagLover said:
Actually Oxbridge subsidizes every UK & EU undergraduate who go there because the money received from the government does not cover the cost of tutition, and still won't after tutition fees are raised to £9k a year.
They are universities competing with the top echelon of world universities, but with a funding from the state set by a system that regards a degree in media studies from an ex-poly as being equivalent.
Exactly. The idea that funding for Cambridge should be on the same level as for Westminster "University" is absurd.They are universities competing with the top echelon of world universities, but with a funding from the state set by a system that regards a degree in media studies from an ex-poly as being equivalent.
Especially when a US student doing the same thing at Harvard would walk away with $250k of debt.
How does Oxford cope with this?
Just querying the 2 system...
Du1point8 said:
Can I ask one thing, if you were studying Law at Oxford and then went on to the Law College there, using the current limits of fees at the moment, you would walk away with circa £40k of debit, how does this pay for anything?
Especially when a US student doing the same thing at Harvard would walk away with $250k of debt.
How does Oxford cope with this?
Just querying the 2 system...
The £40k contributes to the cost of the education, the rest is covered by the funding of the university (both from public and private sources).Especially when a US student doing the same thing at Harvard would walk away with $250k of debt.
How does Oxford cope with this?
Just querying the 2 system...
Derek Smith said:
WhoseGeneration said:
I was just trying to defend Oxbridge from those who only seem to think Classics and suchlike.
Point taken.When I was a kid, some weeks ago now, there was a fascination with engineering amongst my age group. It wasn't just the group I went with, but it was all in the papers as well. I suppose the space race helped no end but there are things just as exciting now.
When I built my ZX80 I took it to work.
I often think we need MPs with engineering degrees rather than law degrees. At least they'd work to a solution.
I think Derek has hit the nail on the head that maybe we are looking at what 'engineering' is incorrectly.
We have an absolutely enormous number of bright kids going into software and tech and design etc. These are the kids who would have been inspired by ship building, cars, planes in our era (maybe byplanes in Dereks) but now what inspires them in their youth is modern tech.
Just in the South East alone there are enormous numbers of GUI designers and App builders and 'engineers' working for Apple and the like.
I don't think that engineering has demised at all in the UK, in fact I think in the last 10 years it has seen a resurgence the likes of which we have not seen since the Victorian days. It is simply that we are failing to recognise what engineering actually is in modern Britain.
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