Japan Fukushima nuclear thread

[MOTORVATOR]

That's the beauty of radiation poisoning as a discussion subject though isn't it. No hard facts until the last casualty is reported which may be 100+ years down the line.

Chernobyl the pronuclear brigade - only 37 people died.
Chernobyl the WHO research - probably 4000 total death toll attributeable to incident.
Chernobyl the fluffy bunny doomsayers - over 200,000 affected will die.

I'm not sure how these workers would feel about the Registers H&S consultant turning up and saying get back in the room it's only a bit of sunburn.

And by the same token media phrasing stuff to look like the guys are going fall over radiated to death any moment are out of order.

In the same vein on here if you want short life radiation to look harmless just quote a half life without referring to the actual period for the decay to reach levels prior to release.

[llewop]

hairykrishna said:

I imagine that the order of magnitude difference is due to the difference between 'whole body dose' and the dose to their ankles/feet. It is my guess that they received their extremely high skin dose mainly from beta emitters - this dose will have been deposited in the outer layers of skin, giving them the rad burns. They are very likely to recover completely and were released more or less immediately from hospital.

There is more to confirm that on the IAEA site if you dig enough:

Onsite 3 exposed workers medical status (IAEA)

March 24:
3 workers exposed to radiation (2 with feet/legs contamination)
NIRS Hospital

Radiation Monitoring:
Body dosimeter: 173, 179, 180 mSv
(Dose limit for emergency workers in life saving operation: 250 mSv)

Medical condition
Transient redness (suggesting a dose between 2000-3000 mSv locally)
Under medical observation for 4 days.

Latest news:
All 3 patients were discharged (March 28 at 12:00 Tokyo time)
2 patients with local legs problems: regular medical follow-up


So the various figures are sort of right- the dose estimate to the legs will be that: an estimate, hence the follow-up

[Fume troll]

Globs said:

I also have a tiny suspicion that the IAEA may have more knowledge of nuclear reactors than a publication staffed by people more used to upgrading Windows XP...

If you want even closer information I'd suggest NISA, their press releases can be found on this page: http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/index.html, or more specifically about the soil samples here: http://www.nisa.meti.go.jp/english/files/en2011032... which includes a link to the TEPCO site.

Still, I'm sure if I have a serious NAT routing issue TheRegister would be the place to look.

From the second link:

‹Results of the analysis›
-Plutonium was detected in the soil of Fukushima Daiichi Nuclear Power
Station.
-The density of detected plutonium is equivalent to the fallout observed
in Japan when the atmospheric nuclear test was conducted in the past.
-The detected plutonium from two samples out of five may be the direct
result of the recent incident, considering their activity ratio of the
plutonium isotopes.
-The density of detected plutonium is equivalent to the density in the
soil under normal environmental conditions and therefore poses no major
impact on human health. TEPCO strengthens environment monitoring inside
the station and surrounding areas.
-We will conduct analysis of the three additional soil samples.

Not sure what point you were making...?

Cheers,

FT.

[alangla]

Looks like some of the iodine has reached the UK - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west...

[theaxe]

This is worth a look. (XKCD radiation chart)

[Fume troll]

theaxe said:

This is worth a look. (XKCD radiation chart)

As is this: Information is beautiful radaition chart

Cheers,

FT.

[Globs]

Fume troll said:

Not sure what point you were making...?

Cheers,

FT.

I was making the point that TheRegister was as wildly inaccurate as the rest of the media. The fact it only said the worker got 170mSv instead of the actual 2000-3000mSv is an illustration of that - out by a factor of over 12.

As you seem to think I'm anti-nuclear could you please point out a single post I have made that is anti-nuclear? Thanks in advance.

Some people seem to think wanting the facts and a robust critique of TEPCO and it's strange insistence on placing it's backup diesel generators on the beach is the reaction of an anti-nuclear person;- if that's the case everyone who thought that the Allegro had faults and the management of British Leyland was bad would be car haters.

[cuneus]

Given the scale of this accident how much is the international community doing to help ?

[Fume troll]

Globs said:

I was making the point that TheRegister was as wildly inaccurate as the rest of the media. The fact it only said the worker got 170mSv instead of the actual 2000-3000mSv is an illustration of that - out by a factor of over 12.

It was reporting the numbers released at the time. The updated dose is also an estimate, is it not?

Globs said:

As you seem to think I'm anti-nuclear could you please point out a single post I have made that is anti-nuclear? Thanks in advance.

Not at all, just surprised at your rapid dismissal and sarcastic treatment of the entire article. Is the example above the only part of the article you disagree with? If so it's not done too bad a job has it?

Cheers,

FT.

[Globs]

Fume troll said:

Not at all, just surprised at your rapid dismissal and sarcastic treatment of the entire article. Is the example above the only part of the article you disagree with? If so it's not done too bad a job has it?

Cheers,

FT.

My example above was just the first incorrect thing I saw, near the top, it did not bode well for the rest of the article;- confusing a dosimeter reading (probably clipped onto a top shirt pocket) with feet wet is a feeble mistake.

That kind of article does nothing for the nuclear industry IMO, I prefer to stick to the known facts and speculation about the condition of the reactors and plant rather than the 'we'll all going to die' or 'no one is going to die' articles.
What is true however is that due to TEPCOs poor choice of site many people whose homes are unaffected by the tsunami haven't been allowed home for over two weeks now.

You need to realise that there are many chemicals in the world that are significantly more dangerous than radiation, in fact more dangerous to such an extent that most radiation can be safely ignored, but exclusion zones do affect lives.

[Carfiend]

Don't you understand Nuclear will destroy us all!!!!1111oneoneoneeleven

[grumbledoak]

cuneus said:

Given the scale of this accident how much is the international community doing to help ?

Are you joking? The 7th Fleet was there asap. Everyone in the vicinity has offered aid.

[hairykrishna]

Globs said:

Fume troll said:

Not sure what point you were making...?

Cheers,

FT.

I was making the point that TheRegister was as wildly inaccurate as the rest of the media. The fact it only said the worker got 170mSv instead of the actual 2000-3000mSv is an illustration of that - out by a factor of over 12.

As you seem to think I'm anti-nuclear could you please point out a single post I have made that is anti-nuclear? Thanks in advance.

Some people seem to think wanting the facts and a robust critique of TEPCO and it's strange insistence on placing it's backup diesel generators on the beach is the reaction of an anti-nuclear person;- if that's the case everyone who thought that the Allegro had faults and the management of British Leyland was bad would be car haters.

Did you read my post? It's whole body vs feet/legs. The 170mSv was the value off his dosemeter and is a measure of whole body dose. The 2Sv+ is estimated from the rad burns on his legs. If he got that to his legs, it didn't register on his badge and he's not seriously ill then it's beta particle dose. This is, as the article said, effectively the same as sunburn.

Edit; These numbers are all on the IAEA website you used to criticise the article.

[Pesty]

Heard a report today that they have found plutonium in teh grounds outside the main building but they didnt go into any details.

How would plutonium work its way out of the containment vessles?

[hairykrishna]

Pesty said:

Heard a report today that they have found plutonium in teh grounds outside the main building but they didnt go into any details.

How would plutonium work its way out of the containment vessles?

Washed out if there's a breach most likely. It's worth noting that the quantities were minuscule - they are actually equal to the average level found in soil worldwide anyway thanks to the open air weapons tests in the 50's/60's. The only reason they suspect it's from the reactor as opposed to background is the isotope ratios.

[eldar]

grumbledoak said:

Are you joking? The 7th Fleet was there asap. Everyone in the vicinity has offered aid.

There is a lot going on behind the scenes. Lots of instruments being shipped there, and specialists working on things.

[Condieboy]

Pesty said:

Heard a report today that they have found plutonium in teh grounds outside the main building but they didnt go into any details.

How would plutonium work its way out of the containment vessles?

In the event of a meltdown (or partial in this case) the fuel escapes from the Zirconium holding it all together in the core. It is then in the coolant and pipework, and if they should then release some of the coolant to relieve an increase in pressure...

[cuneus]

eldar said:

There is a lot going on behind the scenes. Lots of instruments being shipped there, and specialists working on things.

Thanks how do you know that ?

I was wondering about how the Japanese react culturally in this situation.

[Globs]

hairykrishna said:

Did you read my post? It's whole body vs feet/legs.

Sorry Hairy, yes I did read your post and disagreed with none of it

Your explanation while not incompatible with the register article was rather more informative, also only two workers got wet feet according to the IAEA, not three.

I suppose the register article is better than the average media one but I still prefer information from closer to the source.

BTW any idea how the HPA detect such low levels of Iodine 131 in the UK?

[llewop]

Globs said:

BTW any idea how the HPA detect such low levels of Iodine 131 in the UK?

From the HPA website:

HPA said:

As anticipated, the UK is now beginning to see the minutest traces of iodine - 131 associated with events at the Fukushima nuclear facility. Measurements taken at HPA's monitoring station in Oxfordshire yesterday (28 March) using very high volume air sampling techniques found trace levels of iodine - 131 in the air. The levels were extremely low at 300 micro-becquerels per cubic metre. This followed reports from HPA's monitoring stations in Glasgow and Oxfordshire of measurements averaged over the last nine days which found 11 micro-becquerels per cubic metre.

The dose received from inhaling air with these measured levels of iodine -131 is minuscule and would be very much less than the annual background radiation dose. The detection of these trace levels reflects the sensitivity of the monitoring equipment.

The levels detected therefore mean there is no public health risk in the UK from the release of radioactive material from the Fukushima nuclear power plant. Levels may rise in the coming days and weeks but they will be significantly below any level that could cause harm to public health.

Notes
1) Because of the high volumes of air needed to identify any radioactive materials measurements normally take place over extended periods of time. HPA instituted this special high volume air sampling to establish what the levels were. These will be updated regularly.
2) For further information about radiation and the Japanese incident please go to the Health Protection Agency website.

Kind of suggests they made very special effort get down to the levels found - but don't specify quite how large a sample (it would be a very large volume sample + a good counting system on the filter) - I think the rather vague '..doses very much less than annual background...' is maybe because you end up with a very very very small number!

ETA a couple of 'verys' after fag packet calculation

Edited by llewop on Tuesday 29th March 21:02