On £25k but 'poor'?! Misery thread...
Discussion
I have a spreadsheet named 'Monthly Outgoings' which lists everything I can think of.
No savings to be found on the car, after downgrading from the Focus to the older 306 diesel I'm doing 53ish mpg on average and insurance sets me back £55 a month. Car is overdue a service by 2000 miles but I can't really stretch to the parts yet. Once I can I'll do it all myself.
No savings to be found on the car, after downgrading from the Focus to the older 306 diesel I'm doing 53ish mpg on average and insurance sets me back £55 a month. Car is overdue a service by 2000 miles but I can't really stretch to the parts yet. Once I can I'll do it all myself.
C.A.R. said:
I have a spreadsheet named 'Monthly Outgoings' which lists everything I can think of.
No savings to be found on the car, after downgrading from the Focus to the older 306 diesel I'm doing 53ish mpg on average and insurance sets me back £55 a month. Car is overdue a service by 2000 miles but I can't really stretch to the parts yet. Once I can I'll do it all myself.
Blimey, how old are you if you don`t mind me asking, insurance is a bit keen!No savings to be found on the car, after downgrading from the Focus to the older 306 diesel I'm doing 53ish mpg on average and insurance sets me back £55 a month. Car is overdue a service by 2000 miles but I can't really stretch to the parts yet. Once I can I'll do it all myself.
C.A.R. said:
I have a spreadsheet named 'Monthly Outgoings' which lists everything I can think of.
No savings to be found on the car, after downgrading from the Focus to the older 306 diesel I'm doing 53ish mpg on average and insurance sets me back £55 a month. Car is overdue a service by 2000 miles but I can't really stretch to the parts yet. Once I can I'll do it all myself.
i'm pretty sure you should still be getting child tax creditsNo savings to be found on the car, after downgrading from the Focus to the older 306 diesel I'm doing 53ish mpg on average and insurance sets me back £55 a month. Car is overdue a service by 2000 miles but I can't really stretch to the parts yet. Once I can I'll do it all myself.
I earn more than you, but am in a similar situation with a non-workign wife and kids. I still receive them.
I think you have filled in the form incorrectly.
Efbe said:
i'm pretty sure you should still be getting child tax credits
I earn more than you, but am in a similar situation with a non-workign wife and kids. I still receive them.
I think you have filled in the form incorrectly.
Or you have and you will have to repay it all, with interest, immediately into my account.I earn more than you, but am in a similar situation with a non-workign wife and kids. I still receive them.
I think you have filled in the form incorrectly.
OP this may not all help you as i know you have a spreadsheet, but i guess others who read this might be a similar situ so it might be helpful to them 
I have an excel spread sheet I use for budgeting and reconcile to the bank it every week. I know exactly how much I’ve got left for food, disposable and what is pending to clear from my bank account.
I also know what all my bills are likely to be for the year such as house ins, car ins, water, pet bills yada yada(!) and I divide it by 12 and save this much every month. You never get hit by a large bill unexpectedly that way and never have to take insurance companies shocking 5000% APR or whatever to pay monthly.
I also stick a bit of cash each month in:
- a House account which is supposed to cover furniture, DIY jobs etc. This keeps stuff like this out of your normal disposable income and doesn’t cramp your life style.
- a Clothes account. We don’t buy clothes every month and tend to just buy as and when. Nice to have 500 quid or something to splash out every now and again.
- a Christmas/brithdays account – I don’t put much in there but (to tight haha) but it certainly helps smooth the finances at Christmas with the presents and food bills!
Your excel summary sheet should have sections like:
Income
Less Direct Debits (all your bills inc Rent)
Less Supermarket
Less Fuel
Less whatever else isn’t a direct debit i.e. cheques
Less Saving pots (as above + if you can afford it longer term stuff in ISAs)
Less Disposable – takeaways, dvds, going out etc
It should come to Zero.
Then set up an excel template to the side of the above summary
Top section should be stuff that’s cleared the bank statement. Classify all of these items per your Summary above.
The second section should be items that haven’t cleared yet, these will probably be your direct debits and all the stuff you haven’t yet spent in the month – i.e. the supermarket budget, fuel.
Every time you spend something take it away from the uncleared second section.
You will then know exactly where your bank balance is due to go and can make decisions easier.
As you’ve classified your statement you can run a pivot table on and compare it quickly back to your summary to see how you’re doing against budget.
Works for me and you can actually manage to the penny!
I have an excel spread sheet I use for budgeting and reconcile to the bank it every week. I know exactly how much I’ve got left for food, disposable and what is pending to clear from my bank account.
I also know what all my bills are likely to be for the year such as house ins, car ins, water, pet bills yada yada(!) and I divide it by 12 and save this much every month. You never get hit by a large bill unexpectedly that way and never have to take insurance companies shocking 5000% APR or whatever to pay monthly.
I also stick a bit of cash each month in:
- a House account which is supposed to cover furniture, DIY jobs etc. This keeps stuff like this out of your normal disposable income and doesn’t cramp your life style.
- a Clothes account. We don’t buy clothes every month and tend to just buy as and when. Nice to have 500 quid or something to splash out every now and again.
- a Christmas/brithdays account – I don’t put much in there but (to tight haha) but it certainly helps smooth the finances at Christmas with the presents and food bills!
Your excel summary sheet should have sections like:
Income
Less Direct Debits (all your bills inc Rent)
Less Supermarket
Less Fuel
Less whatever else isn’t a direct debit i.e. cheques
Less Saving pots (as above + if you can afford it longer term stuff in ISAs)
Less Disposable – takeaways, dvds, going out etc
It should come to Zero.
Then set up an excel template to the side of the above summary
Top section should be stuff that’s cleared the bank statement. Classify all of these items per your Summary above.
The second section should be items that haven’t cleared yet, these will probably be your direct debits and all the stuff you haven’t yet spent in the month – i.e. the supermarket budget, fuel.
Every time you spend something take it away from the uncleared second section.
You will then know exactly where your bank balance is due to go and can make decisions easier.
As you’ve classified your statement you can run a pivot table on and compare it quickly back to your summary to see how you’re doing against budget.
Works for me and you can actually manage to the penny!
ETOPS said:
Agree with everything here. Where there's a will, there's a way; and this applies with looking to save money.
I've been in the same position as many have mentioned on here, and although there's often no end in sight, I have to say, in a certain way, I look back quite fondly at those penny pinching days.
I was studying full time, any my wife was made redundant from a fairly high paying job. We had a small house deposit in the bank, which would now become our 'fixed costs fund'. We flogged our cars, my wife was brilliant about looking for supermarket coupons, we'd menu-plan based on her coupon hunt, ditching cable TV etc.
Naturally, it was stressful. I'd be lying if I said otherwise, but that's because we were unemployed. What ensued over the next few months, however, was a bit eye-opening. We realised that once (our newly minimised) bills are paid, we didn't have anything left over, but didn't want for anything. We took so much pleasure in being with each other, walking the dog, playing guitar, and giving each other the support needed when stress did arise, reading in the sun, spending time with family... All are free.
My parents, bless em, would occasionally send us a delivery, which would usually be something which we now wouldn't buy to eat, like a piece of beef, and a case of beer. I can say truthfully, that we would have more fun at home with a few cans of s
te beer (my folks don't really know much about what beer I like!), and a nice home-cooked meal, than at any fancy restaurant. It was marvellous, and taught us a few valuable lessons.
I guess that my point is, to anyone who's situation is tight, is just hang in there. If your bills are covered, just enjoy what you have. I promise you that you can have just as much fun as a family doing the best (free) things in life, and be far more fulfilled, than if you spend your free time at the mall or pub. I understand the stress of unforeseen bills etc, and they suck, but otherwise, don't be fooled by material goods that others have - they don't alter your mood, they just alter your mindset.
Nowadays, on my birthday, what do I like to do? Get couple of friends over, buy some cases of ste beer, cook up a simple, delicious meal and get toasted. It's bliss.
The pleasures of the 'simple' things in life evade many people while chasing the next big thing.I've been in the same position as many have mentioned on here, and although there's often no end in sight, I have to say, in a certain way, I look back quite fondly at those penny pinching days.
I was studying full time, any my wife was made redundant from a fairly high paying job. We had a small house deposit in the bank, which would now become our 'fixed costs fund'. We flogged our cars, my wife was brilliant about looking for supermarket coupons, we'd menu-plan based on her coupon hunt, ditching cable TV etc.
Naturally, it was stressful. I'd be lying if I said otherwise, but that's because we were unemployed. What ensued over the next few months, however, was a bit eye-opening. We realised that once (our newly minimised) bills are paid, we didn't have anything left over, but didn't want for anything. We took so much pleasure in being with each other, walking the dog, playing guitar, and giving each other the support needed when stress did arise, reading in the sun, spending time with family... All are free.
My parents, bless em, would occasionally send us a delivery, which would usually be something which we now wouldn't buy to eat, like a piece of beef, and a case of beer. I can say truthfully, that we would have more fun at home with a few cans of s
te beer (my folks don't really know much about what beer I like!), and a nice home-cooked meal, than at any fancy restaurant. It was marvellous, and taught us a few valuable lessons.I guess that my point is, to anyone who's situation is tight, is just hang in there. If your bills are covered, just enjoy what you have. I promise you that you can have just as much fun as a family doing the best (free) things in life, and be far more fulfilled, than if you spend your free time at the mall or pub. I understand the stress of unforeseen bills etc, and they suck, but otherwise, don't be fooled by material goods that others have - they don't alter your mood, they just alter your mindset.
Nowadays, on my birthday, what do I like to do? Get couple of friends over, buy some cases of s
te beer, cook up a simple, delicious meal and get toasted. It's bliss.garyhun said:
ETOPS said:
Agree with everything here. Where there's a will, there's a way; and this applies with looking to save money.
I've been in the same position as many have mentioned on here, and although there's often no end in sight, I have to say, in a certain way, I look back quite fondly at those penny pinching days.
I was studying full time, any my wife was made redundant from a fairly high paying job. We had a small house deposit in the bank, which would now become our 'fixed costs fund'. We flogged our cars, my wife was brilliant about looking for supermarket coupons, we'd menu-plan based on her coupon hunt, ditching cable TV etc.
Naturally, it was stressful. I'd be lying if I said otherwise, but that's because we were unemployed. What ensued over the next few months, however, was a bit eye-opening. We realised that once (our newly minimised) bills are paid, we didn't have anything left over, but didn't want for anything. We took so much pleasure in being with each other, walking the dog, playing guitar, and giving each other the support needed when stress did arise, reading in the sun, spending time with family... All are free.
My parents, bless em, would occasionally send us a delivery, which would usually be something which we now wouldn't buy to eat, like a piece of beef, and a case of beer. I can say truthfully, that we would have more fun at home with a few cans of ste beer (my folks don't really know much about what beer I like!), and a nice home-cooked meal, than at any fancy restaurant. It was marvellous, and taught us a few valuable lessons.
I guess that my point is, to anyone who's situation is tight, is just hang in there. If your bills are covered, just enjoy what you have. I promise you that you can have just as much fun as a family doing the best (free) things in life, and be far more fulfilled, than if you spend your free time at the mall or pub. I understand the stress of unforeseen bills etc, and they suck, but otherwise, don't be fooled by material goods that others have - they don't alter your mood, they just alter your mindset.
Nowadays, on my birthday, what do I like to do? Get couple of friends over, buy some cases of ste beer, cook up a simple, delicious meal and get toasted. It's bliss.
The pleasures of the 'simple' things in life evade many people while chasing the next big thing.I've been in the same position as many have mentioned on here, and although there's often no end in sight, I have to say, in a certain way, I look back quite fondly at those penny pinching days.
I was studying full time, any my wife was made redundant from a fairly high paying job. We had a small house deposit in the bank, which would now become our 'fixed costs fund'. We flogged our cars, my wife was brilliant about looking for supermarket coupons, we'd menu-plan based on her coupon hunt, ditching cable TV etc.
Naturally, it was stressful. I'd be lying if I said otherwise, but that's because we were unemployed. What ensued over the next few months, however, was a bit eye-opening. We realised that once (our newly minimised) bills are paid, we didn't have anything left over, but didn't want for anything. We took so much pleasure in being with each other, walking the dog, playing guitar, and giving each other the support needed when stress did arise, reading in the sun, spending time with family... All are free.
My parents, bless em, would occasionally send us a delivery, which would usually be something which we now wouldn't buy to eat, like a piece of beef, and a case of beer. I can say truthfully, that we would have more fun at home with a few cans of s
te beer (my folks don't really know much about what beer I like!), and a nice home-cooked meal, than at any fancy restaurant. It was marvellous, and taught us a few valuable lessons.I guess that my point is, to anyone who's situation is tight, is just hang in there. If your bills are covered, just enjoy what you have. I promise you that you can have just as much fun as a family doing the best (free) things in life, and be far more fulfilled, than if you spend your free time at the mall or pub. I understand the stress of unforeseen bills etc, and they suck, but otherwise, don't be fooled by material goods that others have - they don't alter your mood, they just alter your mindset.
Nowadays, on my birthday, what do I like to do? Get couple of friends over, buy some cases of s
te beer, cook up a simple, delicious meal and get toasted. It's bliss.
) but its been worth it at this point in my life and a 12 year old MX5 is brilliant fun anyway!We have always been quite frugal, not extravagant, and it has helped no end, we always have money left each month and it has enabled us to get well up the property ladder too without too much trouble by buying right and will importantly mean we wont have to move for years including when we have kids.
We take great pleasure in going for walks etc, doing the free things in life and enjoying it. We still manage to see friends at pubs etc but they are there spending £100+ a week which we just cant justify despite being 'comfortable' at the moment. No doubt when kids come along and our income is slashed, it will be tougher, but OP, dont crave the material things for a few years, 3 or 4 years will absolutely fly by and you will be back to where you were prior to kids when the missus is working again. And it will be worth it.
Hang in their OP, I may be starting a thread in a few years time echoing your own
vescaegg said:
+1 a great post ETOPS. Me and the missus are hoping to have a kid in the next few years and have quite a strict 2-3year plan in our heads of where we want to be by then financially etc. We dont spend stupid amounts on stuff (including cars which kills me as a Pistonheader - ive put the M3 fund into other things a few times! ) but its been worth it at this point in my life and a 12 year old MX5 is brilliant fun anyway!
We have always been quite frugal, not extravagant, and it has helped no end, we always have money left each month and it has enabled us to get well up the property ladder too without too much trouble by buying right and will importantly mean we wont have to move for years including when we have kids.
We take great pleasure in going for walks etc, doing the free things in life and enjoying it. We still manage to see friends at pubs etc but they are there spending £100+ a week which we just cant justify despite being 'comfortable' at the moment. No doubt when kids come along and our income is slashed, it will be tougher, but OP, dont crave the material things for a few years, 3 or 4 years will absolutely fly by and you will be back to where you were prior to kids when the missus is working again. And it will be worth it.
Hang in their OP, I may be starting a thread in a few years time echoing your own
I'm so glad there are a few others like me and my partner!) but its been worth it at this point in my life and a 12 year old MX5 is brilliant fun anyway!We have always been quite frugal, not extravagant, and it has helped no end, we always have money left each month and it has enabled us to get well up the property ladder too without too much trouble by buying right and will importantly mean we wont have to move for years including when we have kids.
We take great pleasure in going for walks etc, doing the free things in life and enjoying it. We still manage to see friends at pubs etc but they are there spending £100+ a week which we just cant justify despite being 'comfortable' at the moment. No doubt when kids come along and our income is slashed, it will be tougher, but OP, dont crave the material things for a few years, 3 or 4 years will absolutely fly by and you will be back to where you were prior to kids when the missus is working again. And it will be worth it.
Hang in their OP, I may be starting a thread in a few years time echoing your own
We have never particularly 'saved' - it's just happened. Originally this happened because I would buy a more expensive car, so we'd need to save for it, but now it just happens because our wages have increased a decent amount and our style of living hasn't changed.
Personally, I know I am old before my time, since I too like going for walks and doing the simple things. I'm only 28!
I'm glad someone else has used the phrase 'buying right' as well. This is absolutely key to having things you like whilst still being able to save money. I don't feel like I've gone without over the last few years.
Sounds tough, and I can understand why you are irked compared to the experience of your siblings. Your course will get you far more in the long run!
We've been brassic skint for a few years now, it really isn't worth worrying about.
No takeaways, drinking or smoking unless it is a really special occasion (once a month at most). No newspapers, magazines, hobbies, specialist subscriptions, sky etc. Is your phone on as cheap a contract as you can manage.
Buy nothing new: Peruse and use the second hand shops - can be very good for cheap clothing and kids toys. Use gumtree, faceache, freecycle daily - you'd be surprised what turns up.
Cook properly, from scratch, from the 'offer of the day ingredients'. This is an advantage of having the missus at home. Also allows her to be very particular about shopping: Use markets, cash and carry, lidl, aldi as much as you can. Bulk cook and use your freezer.
Turn stuff off when you don't use it. Lights heating etc: As said your leccy bill is high.
If one of you gets an evening job (the missus, I would suggest) a couple of evenings a week then you will get an extra 200 a month in the pot, which sounds like it will make a big difference. Perhaps she can find somewhere with decent perks: If she works in e.g. a chippy then that's a couple of meals a week you don't need to pay for either!
It's doable and you will get there. Use this time to enjoy your young family, you can worry about money later.
We've been brassic skint for a few years now, it really isn't worth worrying about.
No takeaways, drinking or smoking unless it is a really special occasion (once a month at most). No newspapers, magazines, hobbies, specialist subscriptions, sky etc. Is your phone on as cheap a contract as you can manage.
Buy nothing new: Peruse and use the second hand shops - can be very good for cheap clothing and kids toys. Use gumtree, faceache, freecycle daily - you'd be surprised what turns up.
Cook properly, from scratch, from the 'offer of the day ingredients'. This is an advantage of having the missus at home. Also allows her to be very particular about shopping: Use markets, cash and carry, lidl, aldi as much as you can. Bulk cook and use your freezer.
Turn stuff off when you don't use it. Lights heating etc: As said your leccy bill is high.
If one of you gets an evening job (the missus, I would suggest) a couple of evenings a week then you will get an extra 200 a month in the pot, which sounds like it will make a big difference. Perhaps she can find somewhere with decent perks: If she works in e.g. a chippy then that's a couple of meals a week you don't need to pay for either!
It's doable and you will get there. Use this time to enjoy your young family, you can worry about money later.
OP, I'm in a similar situation as you, except my wife works part time, 10 days a month, as we are lucky enough to get 2 days a week free child care off the in laws and every other Saturday I look after the kids when she is working.
I did have a much better job, but I've now been stuck in my "stop gap" job for almost 5 years after taking redundancy.
Thing is, despite us both working we are only just making end meet, and things appear to be getting worse over the last few years as prices go up on everything but no one gets a pay rise.
We have stopped doing pretty much everything fun - we hardly ever go out drinking, I never go for a drive just for the hell of it, we very rarely have a takeaway or go to the cinema. Luckily sex is still free.
My car is not very economical, and I could save money if I could buy a more economical car, but once again I am stuck in that catch 22 situation of not having the money to buy a more frugal car unless I sell the one I have, which is worth next to nothing as it's not that economical and economical cars are much more expensive!
It really does make you think how people earning under the national average get on. And it still boils my piss that people can get considerably more on benefits not working than I currently earn after tax - sometimes I suspect my careful lifestyle is funding their gambling, drinking and smoking.
I don't think things are going to get better in the short-term - my only way out is to get a better paid job, which up north is proving difficult!
Lots of good advice on here for the OP and all us others who are just about keeping our head above water.
I did have a much better job, but I've now been stuck in my "stop gap" job for almost 5 years after taking redundancy.
Thing is, despite us both working we are only just making end meet, and things appear to be getting worse over the last few years as prices go up on everything but no one gets a pay rise.
We have stopped doing pretty much everything fun - we hardly ever go out drinking, I never go for a drive just for the hell of it, we very rarely have a takeaway or go to the cinema. Luckily sex is still free.
My car is not very economical, and I could save money if I could buy a more economical car, but once again I am stuck in that catch 22 situation of not having the money to buy a more frugal car unless I sell the one I have, which is worth next to nothing as it's not that economical and economical cars are much more expensive!
It really does make you think how people earning under the national average get on. And it still boils my piss that people can get considerably more on benefits not working than I currently earn after tax - sometimes I suspect my careful lifestyle is funding their gambling, drinking and smoking.
I don't think things are going to get better in the short-term - my only way out is to get a better paid job, which up north is proving difficult!
Lots of good advice on here for the OP and all us others who are just about keeping our head above water.
Edited by Emeye on Wednesday 24th July 15:58
I feel for you OP, having a child under school age is a killer financially, I can only suggest getting by until they're old enough for Nursery and your GF can get a job.
What did your GF do before the baby came along? Has she considered Nursing? It's not the same UK-wide, but my Wife spent 3 years at Uni / Hospital training to be a nurse, during that time she was paid a bursary of about £500 a month an the also paid for childcare which came to about the same, tough course and not easy to get onto, but with a bit of graft she started a job a few weeks after qualifying, with shift allowances and the odd bit of OT she's on £25k a year now.
What did your GF do before the baby came along? Has she considered Nursing? It's not the same UK-wide, but my Wife spent 3 years at Uni / Hospital training to be a nurse, during that time she was paid a bursary of about £500 a month an the also paid for childcare which came to about the same, tough course and not easy to get onto, but with a bit of graft she started a job a few weeks after qualifying, with shift allowances and the odd bit of OT she's on £25k a year now.
Markhoskins said:
Why do you sympathise? Having children is not a right. People should think more carefully before having them and complaining about how difficult life is.
How very helpful. 
As has been said, if everyone waited till they had enough money no one would have kids, or people would try and have kids way too late in life.
In the same boat as the OP. House, and the basics kill what I bring in every month. We used to run about in our 200 plus bhp modified cars but parked them up and got Diesels when we knew the baby was coming. Cut back in every place we can and as a result we spend every night in doors and have zero social life and try and keep our expenditures to a minimum.
On the flip side once our son is amazing and a joy to be around and will one day be in school meaning my wife can go back to work part time and that will make a difference.
But for now I’m looking at a second job, even minimal wage, I don’t care I just need a few extra quid to make things easier.
spats said:
How very helpful.
As has been said, if everyone waited till they had enough money no one would have kids, or people would try and have kids way too late in life.
In the same boat as the OP. House, and the basics kill what I bring in every month. We used to run about in our 200 plus bhp modified cars but parked them up and got Diesels when we knew the baby was coming. Cut back in every place we can and as a result we spend every night in doors and have zero social life and try and keep our expenditures to a minimum.
On the flip side once our son is amazing and a joy to be around and will one day be in school meaning my wife can go back to work part time and that will make a difference.
But for now I’m looking at a second job, even minimal wage, I don’t care I just need a few extra quid to make things easier.
Plenty of people have kids with no money, i.e no jobs whatsoever. A post does not need to be helpful to post, it is a discussion thread and asked a simple question. Atleast one other poster agreed with me. As has been said, if everyone waited till they had enough money no one would have kids, or people would try and have kids way too late in life.
In the same boat as the OP. House, and the basics kill what I bring in every month. We used to run about in our 200 plus bhp modified cars but parked them up and got Diesels when we knew the baby was coming. Cut back in every place we can and as a result we spend every night in doors and have zero social life and try and keep our expenditures to a minimum.
On the flip side once our son is amazing and a joy to be around and will one day be in school meaning my wife can go back to work part time and that will make a difference.
But for now I’m looking at a second job, even minimal wage, I don’t care I just need a few extra quid to make things easier.
Since when did this become the liberal democrats forum?
Are you saying that you feel that I should have sympathy with you because you cut back and are going to work two jobs? Well I don’t. You have kids and struggle away and it’s worth the hassle then good for you. Don’t see why people are complaining about it though.
WeirdNeville said:
It's as little as I'd want to try and support a wife and child on in the South East. Or anywhere, really, but especially in the south east.
those on a true 'low' wage dont have the choice to say that.often they've been searching for a job.. any job for months or years on end.
when they get one, it consumes all their free time, pay and conditions are crap but they cant leave as they dont make enough to generate any savings at all. dispite living as cheaply as possible.
£25k would be a monsterous jump in wages for many
if you ask a few randoms on the street what they see as a low wage and what they see as a comfortable wage you will see what i mean
Edited by SystemParanoia on Friday 26th July 08:40
SystemParanoia said:
WeirdNeville said:
It's as little as I'd want to try and support a wife and child on in the South East. Or anywhere, really, but especially in the south east.
those on a true 'low' wage dont have the choice to say that.often they've been searching for a job.. any job for months or years on end.
when they get one, it consumes all their free time, pay and conditions are crap but they cant leave as they dont make enough to generate any savings at all. dispite living as cheaply as possible.
£25k would be a monsterous jump in wages for many
if you ask a few randoms on the street what they see as a low wage and what they see as a comfortable wage you will see what i mean
Edited by SystemParanoia on Friday 26th July 08:40
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