Traders: Millions by the minute. BBC i Player
Discussion
Zoog said:
Really sorry but I think if you need to trade - I mean to pay the bills - you are dead. Just my opinion. The awful truth is that the less you need to trade to live, the easier it is as pressure is a killer. I am not suggesting you need millions but what you have as trading money, you should be prepared to risk. If that money is for groceries or the gas bill there is no way you can stick to the discipline required. If you have another source of income and have some money that you could afford to lose and want to learn, try a micro account. The spreads suck and there are lots of scammy brokers but there are some OK ones that do it. I do not believe in paper trading unless its to test a strategy. There is no stress in paper trading. A micro or mini account is much better because at least its real time however you must be in a position to afford the loss. Learning to trade takes a long time and requires discipline and consistency and the price you pay are the losses. Most who have made it started by making losses, then they broke even for a while and then very slowly they started to make a profit. I am sure many will not agree but that is my experience and I have been in this game a long time.
I totally agree with all of the above. Just in the real world, i'm not sure how many people are able to put up with a year of losing / breaking even through trading. It is of course a very strong possibility that a successful trader could yield negative return years. Most traders do not understand their risk or the standard deviation of taking their trades. The actual probability of success for a trade is something that is very hard to quantify - perhaps impossible due to the numerous variables at work. Whilst one shouldn't be thinking about how they're going to pay the mortgage or buy their food with their earnings from the next trade / month, the end game of the business is in being monetarily richer than before undertaking said activities. I am aware that many of the 'great' traders have blown up multiple times. It's seen as a badge of honour. It's just a very fine line between being persistent and an addict.
Just to give some context to my earlier comment.
As I understand it, you can automatically "copy", in ratio, those traders who have a strong success victory.
The site seems to operate some sort of social model where all previous translations are public / shared.
Looking at the system and you can search for traders "who have made a consistent profit of x percent in the past x time period".
I understand the reply about "you won't learn anything by copying" but that's not really my intention as I don't want to become a trader, I just want to make money with money otherwise sat in a bank.
The thing that's stopping me is it just all seems to be a bit too good to be true, so was wondering if anyone had tried it here as there seems to be a few traders contributing to the thread.
As I understand it, you can automatically "copy", in ratio, those traders who have a strong success victory.
The site seems to operate some sort of social model where all previous translations are public / shared.
Looking at the system and you can search for traders "who have made a consistent profit of x percent in the past x time period".
I understand the reply about "you won't learn anything by copying" but that's not really my intention as I don't want to become a trader, I just want to make money with money otherwise sat in a bank.
The thing that's stopping me is it just all seems to be a bit too good to be true, so was wondering if anyone had tried it here as there seems to be a few traders contributing to the thread.
Curious Trader said:
Just to give some context to my earlier comment.
As I understand it, you can automatically "copy", in ratio, those traders who have a strong success victory.
The site seems to operate some sort of social model where all previous translations are public / shared.
Looking at the system and you can search for traders "who have made a consistent profit of x percent in the past x time period".
I understand the reply about "you won't learn anything by copying" but that's not really my intention as I don't want to become a trader, I just want to make money with money otherwise sat in a bank.
The thing that's stopping me is it just all seems to be a bit too good to be true, so was wondering if anyone had tried it here as there seems to be a few traders contributing to the thread.
I have to admit it's somewhat appealing although does feel a little 'dirty'. It's difficult to effectively hand someone money and trust them that it will yield a return especially when you don't know them and some would say it's admitting failure that you are unable to do it yourself. As I understand it, you can automatically "copy", in ratio, those traders who have a strong success victory.
The site seems to operate some sort of social model where all previous translations are public / shared.
Looking at the system and you can search for traders "who have made a consistent profit of x percent in the past x time period".
I understand the reply about "you won't learn anything by copying" but that's not really my intention as I don't want to become a trader, I just want to make money with money otherwise sat in a bank.
The thing that's stopping me is it just all seems to be a bit too good to be true, so was wondering if anyone had tried it here as there seems to be a few traders contributing to the thread.
But it could just be one of many investments that you implement. Some people do the peer-to-peer lending, shares, investing in other instruments. It would be wisest to copy a few of those guys on there (stating the obvious really) and i'd probably ensure they don't have a very high drawdown % and look for traders that have actually had losing trades on their accounts and are not vastly greater than their profits. I would need to look at the site a bit more to figure out if there are costs involved but it may worth a little dabble for fun. You can always stop copying someone if you're on to a bad one. The good news is Etoro is FCA regulated, so that counts a little.
edit: I had a quick look at some of their 'top' traders - it made me feel VERY uncomfortable. If you look at their last 100 trades, some of them are losing 100% in one trade. 20% moves in one trade, microscopic FX moves resulting in account changing percentages. It seems like a pure gamble unless you really do your research and find someone not taking stupid risks. One of my concerns is copying one of those doughnuts and they close for a 200% loss and you have to stump up the cash. I'm not sure if Etoro has anything to protect the user, but it would be a fear of mine copying one of those monkeys on that site.
Edited by g4ry13 on Friday 26th September 19:31
Unless you have enough capital you can't really make a decent living - unless you risk a large amount I your capital per trade - or have a system that gives you an edge.
And I isn't really scalable - unless you use you knowledge and experience to set up a company that makes a reliable income - it's not like you can trade for 10 years and the sell up, like you can with a business.
And I isn't really scalable - unless you use you knowledge and experience to set up a company that makes a reliable income - it's not like you can trade for 10 years and the sell up, like you can with a business.
Going back to the Etoro thing - you may see people who seem to have good returns. But you really need to look at their equity swings and also open trades.
Take this guy for an example. A pretty nice curve, lots of nice looking % gains over the weeks and years. 14 trades and 0 losers (that's a dead giveaway something is up).
You can check out his history - fairly high % gain for each trade, I wouldn't be comfortable with it. But at least it's not stupid stuff like 5% for a 10 point FX move. Then check out his Open trades and you can see he's just sitting on losing trades from over a year ago. Quite substantial losing trades.
So it seems Etoro will put the closed trades on to the equity curve. The open trades don't get registered creating the incentive to leave them open and just close winners. Resulting in a nice looking equity graph. Of course, those guys aren't using real money and can sit on 50%+ losses because it's fictional. If it looks like it's easy money, then don't be fooled. Not to say that there may not be some worth copying, but I wouldn't put much weight on the 'top traders' of Etoro leaderboard.
Take this guy for an example. A pretty nice curve, lots of nice looking % gains over the weeks and years. 14 trades and 0 losers (that's a dead giveaway something is up).
You can check out his history - fairly high % gain for each trade, I wouldn't be comfortable with it. But at least it's not stupid stuff like 5% for a 10 point FX move. Then check out his Open trades and you can see he's just sitting on losing trades from over a year ago. Quite substantial losing trades.
So it seems Etoro will put the closed trades on to the equity curve. The open trades don't get registered creating the incentive to leave them open and just close winners. Resulting in a nice looking equity graph. Of course, those guys aren't using real money and can sit on 50%+ losses because it's fictional. If it looks like it's easy money, then don't be fooled. Not to say that there may not be some worth copying, but I wouldn't put much weight on the 'top traders' of Etoro leaderboard.
Something else to remember is dont fall for this type of thing http://www.milliondollarpips.com/ (i'll use that one as its probably the best known) This is adding a "robot" that trades for you, they never work!
Hmmm interesting that etoro thing.
Anyway I've looked this thread up because I just caught a bit of this programme and it intraged me. I have a few k I'm not doing anything with and can afford to lose. Not really much point in putting it in a savings account.
With that in mind I have thought for a long time about investing in shares but never done it
a) because I don't know anything about shares how you buy them, costs involved I assume somebody takes a cut/ fees etc
b)I didn't just want to dive in and lose it all in one go.
Anyway the bit that interested me was the simulator one of them was using. Sounds like an ideal learning tool. Yes I get that it's all different using real money. The way I see it at the moment is is like to dabble as a bit of a hobby it's got to be better than the horses. I won't be shorting and blowing up boeings any time soon. And I am totally not inspired by the trader in here that bought a zonda
Anyway to the point can anybody recomend a good simulator like they were using? I'm assuming it works real time with the markets but you just start by putting in an imaginary 5k and see what happens.
Cheers.
Anyway I've looked this thread up because I just caught a bit of this programme and it intraged me. I have a few k I'm not doing anything with and can afford to lose. Not really much point in putting it in a savings account.
With that in mind I have thought for a long time about investing in shares but never done it
a) because I don't know anything about shares how you buy them, costs involved I assume somebody takes a cut/ fees etc
b)I didn't just want to dive in and lose it all in one go.
Anyway the bit that interested me was the simulator one of them was using. Sounds like an ideal learning tool. Yes I get that it's all different using real money. The way I see it at the moment is is like to dabble as a bit of a hobby it's got to be better than the horses. I won't be shorting and blowing up boeings any time soon. And I am totally not inspired by the trader in here that bought a zonda
Anyway to the point can anybody recomend a good simulator like they were using? I'm assuming it works real time with the markets but you just start by putting in an imaginary 5k and see what happens.
Cheers.
Pesty said:
Hmmm interesting that etoro thing.
Anyway I've looked this thread up because I just caught a bit of this programme and it intraged me. I have a few k I'm not doing anything with and can afford to lose. Not really much point in putting it in a savings account.
With that in mind I have thought for a long time about investing in shares but never done it
a) because I don't know anything about shares how you buy them, costs involved I assume somebody takes a cut/ fees etc
b)I didn't just want to dive in and lose it all in one go.
Anyway the bit that interested me was the simulator one of them was using. Sounds like an ideal learning tool. Yes I get that it's all different using real money. The way I see it at the moment is is like to dabble as a bit of a hobby it's got to be better than the horses. I won't be shorting and blowing up boeings any time soon. And I am totally not inspired by the trader in here that bought a zonda
Anyway to the point can anybody recomend a good simulator like they were using? I'm assuming it works real time with the markets but you just start by putting in an imaginary 5k and see what happens.
Almost all forex brokers can give you a demo Metatrader MT account (4 and 5). It trades forex in real time but with paper money - already said my bit about that. Spreads are not real time, nor is slippage etc so any result on demo has to be taken with a big pinch of salt but it will give you a taster. Good luck.
Cheers.
Anyway I've looked this thread up because I just caught a bit of this programme and it intraged me. I have a few k I'm not doing anything with and can afford to lose. Not really much point in putting it in a savings account.
With that in mind I have thought for a long time about investing in shares but never done it
a) because I don't know anything about shares how you buy them, costs involved I assume somebody takes a cut/ fees etc
b)I didn't just want to dive in and lose it all in one go.
Anyway the bit that interested me was the simulator one of them was using. Sounds like an ideal learning tool. Yes I get that it's all different using real money. The way I see it at the moment is is like to dabble as a bit of a hobby it's got to be better than the horses. I won't be shorting and blowing up boeings any time soon. And I am totally not inspired by the trader in here that bought a zonda
Anyway to the point can anybody recomend a good simulator like they were using? I'm assuming it works real time with the markets but you just start by putting in an imaginary 5k and see what happens.
Almost all forex brokers can give you a demo Metatrader MT account (4 and 5). It trades forex in real time but with paper money - already said my bit about that. Spreads are not real time, nor is slippage etc so any result on demo has to be taken with a big pinch of salt but it will give you a taster. Good luck.
Cheers.
Another option is Managed accounts, basically you fund an account and a Manager trades it for you. They can not get hold of your funds as they can only be send back to your own account but they can lose the lot! Still has a bit of excitement as you can sometimes see the trades live, or a small lag, or a statement each night.
The Brummie guys - did anyone lap up their cr*p?
So trade from the Mums loft
Hire/Borrow a c63 to drive up the road for the BBC shoot
Have 4 years trading history and a million, but are still " keeping it real" by filming round the motorway bridges
But by a country mile, my spider senses were tingling telling me something wasn't right about those two....
So trade from the Mums loft
Hire/Borrow a c63 to drive up the road for the BBC shoot
Have 4 years trading history and a million, but are still " keeping it real" by filming round the motorway bridges
But by a country mile, my spider senses were tingling telling me something wasn't right about those two....
Zoog said:
Almost all forex brokers can give you a demo Metatrader MT account (4 and 5). It trades forex in real time but with paper money - already said my bit about that. Spreads are not real time, nor is slippage etc so any result on demo has to be taken with a big pinch of salt but it will give you a taster. Good luck.
Cheers.
thanks don't know what any of that means ive only been a trader for 3 minutes Cheers.
will look up spreads and slippage.I've signed up to etoro and bunged a few hundred dollars in there for a laugh. copying 3 people and thinking of buying new zeland dollars as the graph has gone down for a while and i recon there will be a new hobit film soon so will go up again.
now i've signed up there are tutorials and i can do virtual trades there by the look of it.
you have probably guessed by now i'm no financial genius
Which people have you copied? I'd be interested to see if anything glaringly obvious stands out about them.
Also I believe you can change the parameters of % / risk per trade so you don't have to emulate those guys to the sizing. Some of the things they do are very scary and you wouldn't want to be doing that with actual money as it'll only be a matter of time before the money goes.
Also I believe you can change the parameters of % / risk per trade so you don't have to emulate those guys to the sizing. Some of the things they do are very scary and you wouldn't want to be doing that with actual money as it'll only be a matter of time before the money goes.
g4ry13 said:
Which people have you copied? I'd be interested to see if anything glaringly obvious stands out about them.
Also I believe you can change the parameters of % / risk per trade so you don't have to emulate those guys to the sizing. Some of the things they do are very scary and you wouldn't want to be doing that with actual money as it'll only be a matter of time before the money goes.
I consider myself fairly intelligent except where finance is concerned I have a huge mental block and I am basically an absolute dunce where these things are concerned. so I wouldn't use me as an example of anything other than an idiot with no clue.Also I believe you can change the parameters of % / risk per trade so you don't have to emulate those guys to the sizing. Some of the things they do are very scary and you wouldn't want to be doing that with actual money as it'll only be a matter of time before the money goes.
also bear in mind I tend to jump into things with little research on a whim then worry about research later. id only heard about etoro from the post above mine 2 minutes before I joined and invested.
also I've only invested $224 real money so far and 10,000 virtual dollars in NZD ( i'm not rich or even well off but i spent that on aftershave yesterday so I can afford to lose that much hey I don't drink or smoke so shares might be my new fix)
ok so after literally 5 minutes looking on the site i clicked people and most followed/copied ( site is pretty easy to use).
I then clicked on their names and looked at their graphs. all were 100% in profit for whatever that means and i ticked the copy open trades. i understand past performance does not mean future performance
you can also see if they invest in short term or medium turn so I picked a mixture.
the way i see it its like not putting your eggs all in one basket
so the summarise i picked most copied and most profitable. its investing for lasy people, follow the crowd who follow the 'best' investors and let them do all the work
And im lasy so its right up my street.
ill be selling my body on the street in 6 months
copied
maria421,87.2% 691 Winning Trades
12.8% 101 Losing Trades
jorgeascruz,86.5% 225 Winning Trades
13.5% 35 Losing Trades
4expirate.81.8% 18 Winning Trades
18.2% 4 Losing Trade
Don't worry I wont be losing money I cant afford to lose. I'm not going to be sticking thousand in there.
Edited by Pesty on Friday 26th September 23:27
How to make money from trading:
Place a glossy ad saying 'how to make money from trading'
Book a conference room
Charge each punter £5k to attend
Explain each technical signal and what it *might* signify
Explain how each technical signal *might* be traded
Have caveats - lots of them - and keep repeating them
Repeat ad infinitum
Laugh all the way to the bank
Place a glossy ad saying 'how to make money from trading'
Book a conference room
Charge each punter £5k to attend
Explain each technical signal and what it *might* signify
Explain how each technical signal *might* be traded
Have caveats - lots of them - and keep repeating them
Repeat ad infinitum
Laugh all the way to the bank
Pesty said:
I then clicked on their names and looked at their graphs. all were 100% in profit for whatever that means and i ticked the copy open trades. i understand past performance does not mean future performance
you can also see if they invest in short term or medium turn so I picked a mixture.
the way i see it its like not putting your eggs all in one basket
so the summarise i picked most copied and most profitable. its investing for lasy people, follow the crowd who follow the 'best' investors and let them do all the work
And im lasy so its right up my street.
ill be selling my body on the street in 6 months
copied
maria421,87.2% 691 Winning Trades
12.8% 101 Losing Trades
jorgeascruz,86.5% 225 Winning Trades
13.5% 35 Losing Trades
4expirate.81.8% 18 Winning Trades
18.2% 4 Losing Trade
Don't worry I wont be losing money I cant afford to lose. I'm not going to be sticking thousand in there.
Very wise picking a bunch of them, i'd do the same with limited information. When you signed up did have an option to go for copy all trades or copy all new trades? ie. do you have any positions open as soon as you opened your account? you can also see if they invest in short term or medium turn so I picked a mixture.
the way i see it its like not putting your eggs all in one basket
so the summarise i picked most copied and most profitable. its investing for lasy people, follow the crowd who follow the 'best' investors and let them do all the work
And im lasy so its right up my street.
ill be selling my body on the street in 6 months
copied
maria421,87.2% 691 Winning Trades
12.8% 101 Losing Trades
jorgeascruz,86.5% 225 Winning Trades
13.5% 35 Losing Trades
4expirate.81.8% 18 Winning Trades
18.2% 4 Losing Trade
Don't worry I wont be losing money I cant afford to lose. I'm not going to be sticking thousand in there.
I had a quick look at the people you're copying. So the good news is that none of them have any whopping giant losses which they're hiding away in their open trades.
Jorge Cruz would concern me a little because he's pissing around for a few points and after spread and perhaps not getting filled at the exact same time you may struggle to make money.
Apart from that, I think the other two do look like reasonable small bets and you can always pull out whenever you like. My biggest concern is their position sizing. I don't know if you can scale it back compared to them. But you really shouldn't be making 500% gain on a trade. Maybe i'm reading this incorrectly and the gain is a % of the risk rather than of their account. Some of the other guys are yielding 60% gain on a trade and even 30% is too high. Whilst they may be getting into good positions, the risk of losing 80%+ in a trade is there and if you lose that of your account then it's pretty tough to come back from.
MitchT said:
How to make money from trading:
Place a glossy ad saying 'how to make money from trading'
Book a conference room
Charge each punter £5k to attend
Explain each technical signal and what it *might* signify
Explain how each technical signal *might* be traded
Have caveats - lots of them - and keep repeating them
Repeat ad infinitum
Laugh all the way to the bank
Sounds like the Nakedtrader!Place a glossy ad saying 'how to make money from trading'
Book a conference room
Charge each punter £5k to attend
Explain each technical signal and what it *might* signify
Explain how each technical signal *might* be traded
Have caveats - lots of them - and keep repeating them
Repeat ad infinitum
Laugh all the way to the bank
g4ry13 said:
Very wise picking a bunch of them, i'd do the same with limited information. When you signed up did have an option to go for copy all trades or copy all new trades? ie. do you have any positions open as soon as you opened your account?
I had a quick look at the people you're copying. So the good news is that none of them have any whopping giant losses which they're hiding away in their open trades.
Jorge Cruz would concern me a little because he's pissing around for a few points and after spread and perhaps not getting filled at the exact same time you may struggle to make money.
Apart from that, I think the other two do look like reasonable small bets and you can always pull out whenever you like. My biggest concern is their position sizing. I don't know if you can scale it back compared to them. But you really shouldn't be making 500% gain on a trade. Maybe i'm reading this incorrectly and the gain is a % of the risk rather than of their account. Some of the other guys are yielding 60% gain on a trade and even 30% is too high. Whilst they may be getting into good positions, the risk of losing 80%+ in a trade is there and if you lose that of your account then it's pretty tough to come back from.
I think it copies trades from now on didn't buy anything last night except virtual Nzd but I'll let you know. Just an experiment I spend an aweful lot of time on the Internet might as well watch trades and try and pick something up.I had a quick look at the people you're copying. So the good news is that none of them have any whopping giant losses which they're hiding away in their open trades.
Jorge Cruz would concern me a little because he's pissing around for a few points and after spread and perhaps not getting filled at the exact same time you may struggle to make money.
Apart from that, I think the other two do look like reasonable small bets and you can always pull out whenever you like. My biggest concern is their position sizing. I don't know if you can scale it back compared to them. But you really shouldn't be making 500% gain on a trade. Maybe i'm reading this incorrectly and the gain is a % of the risk rather than of their account. Some of the other guys are yielding 60% gain on a trade and even 30% is too high. Whilst they may be getting into good positions, the risk of losing 80%+ in a trade is there and if you lose that of your account then it's pretty tough to come back from.
There are all kinds of options when copyng to be honest don't understand them but will work it out. Will keep an eye on Jorge
I'm interested myself as to how it copies them and in exactly what proportion.
TraderGuy said:
MitchT said:
How to make money from trading:
Place a glossy ad saying 'how to make money from trading'
Book a conference room
Charge each punter £5k to attend
Explain each technical signal and what it *might* signify
Explain how each technical signal *might* be traded
Have caveats - lots of them - and keep repeating them
Repeat ad infinitum
Laugh all the way to the bank
Sounds like the Nakedtrader!Place a glossy ad saying 'how to make money from trading'
Book a conference room
Charge each punter £5k to attend
Explain each technical signal and what it *might* signify
Explain how each technical signal *might* be traded
Have caveats - lots of them - and keep repeating them
Repeat ad infinitum
Laugh all the way to the bank
Programme annoyed me quite a lot. I only managed the first episode. In it they only interviewed one real trader, the CBOT floor trader. Even the fund manager I think only had $50M or was it $200M under mgmt which is tiny. She seemed to be 50% pundit too with her slot on CNBC or whatever channel. Not surprisingly no firm that employs real traders was going to get involved in a programme like this, so it ends up giving a hugely distorted picture of what real traders actually do. Traders working for banks are primarily there to provide liquidity to clients while managing the risk to which that exposes the bank. And most people on the buy side wouldn't describe themselves as traders; they are fund managers like the woman from the first episode. Yes, bank traders do take a degree of de facto proprietary risk even if that is now pretty widely discouraged, but that isn't where they add value and it isn't how they make real money over the longterm and never has been.
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