Traders: Millions by the minute. BBC i Player

[335d]

I also thought the programme was pretty fair. It didn't spell out in words how delusional these 'traders' were, but the viewer could easily draw that conclusion for themselves.

I didn't get the impression that there was easy money out there, although I was surprised that friends of my other half who saw the programme, knowing what I did for a living, wondered if I would like to set up a trading club. I politely declined, but perhaps that suggests some viewers didn't read between the lines.

Given what has been pointed out here about etoro not including open positions in performance figures, that is the only part of the programme which I felt could have misled people into thinking anyone can do this.

[walm]

ATG said:

Even the fund manager I think only had $50M or was it $200M under mgmt which is tiny. She seemed to be 50% pundit too with her slot on CNBC or whatever channel.

She was a regular hedge fund manager and by the looks of a relatively small operation - with $200m she would have a ridiculous sum left over from just the "2" part of 2 and 20.
Plus she had been going since the 90s which implies a VERY long history as a fund - average lives are sub 10 year mostly, I believe.

IMHO $200m is perfectly legit and offers a very very nice life if you hold onto it for a few years.
Sub $100m is a problem.

[Hoofy]

The average clueless viewer would think:

The Birmingham boys - impressive, backing by famous footballers, would love to get in on the action.

911 guy - seasoned pro. He's got it. Need to learn from him.

Rene (antiques dealer) - gambler.

Investor club - sounded sensible until the end bit so probably not sure.

Housewife in farm - gambler but 51% of the viewers would hope she'll make it.

[piemash]

I was doing some Google searching of my own to gauge the legitimacy of the 'Jusco' Brummie Duo's trading operations, and stumbled across this thread.... Like most of you, I also watched the program, and found it quite entertaining....but I have to say just reading through the threads on here is equally as interesting!

I am not a trader myself....I work in IT....but have been interested in the opportunities that the FX markets offer for a couple of years now. Up until now I've been put off, for a number of reasons. Having spoken to people at work in the past, who've simply responded that Forex is too difficult to make money from...How 90% of people who try it will fail, how you'll never be able to compete with the big companies, blah, blah.

It's almost like when you get a child, absolutely full of ambition, with their lives only just beginning, and they want to reach for the stars! "What do you want to be when you grow up Johnny?" - "I want to be an Astronaut miss!" - "OK well you need to take your head out of the clouds and be more realistic....how about learning to be a plumber?" (By the way I mean no disrespect to any plumbers, especially if you love your job)

the point is that so many people are so quick to shoot you down in flames, because you dare to dream big. I'm interested in the Forex markets because of the opportunities they offer. You are effectively betting on a major economy (as opposed to a business, when dealing in shares) so the markets are highly liquid, arguably less erratic, and best of all you have the opportunity to tap into a market that only 10-15 years ago you couldn't of dreamed of doing at home, and with such a small starting capital.

I have a half-decent PC at home, and have just invested in a cheapo graphics card to allow me to connect up four screens. I bought a LCD monitor bracket, a graphics card, 3 extra cheap LCD screens off of eBay, and for less than £300 I will soon have a fully fledged Forex trading workstation.

I'm trying to learn a bit each day about technical, fundamental and sentimental analysis of the markets, and have opened a demo account, with the view of focusing on a monthly pip-target (as opposed to a financial target) and will not trade with real cash until I'm confident I really know what I'm doing. Discipline will definitely be the key.

Anyway, for those who will give the obligatory "LOL" or "ROFL" with a sarcastic, "Good Luck with that mate!" added in for good measure, you might be right.....I might try this for a few months, and end up like the art dealer who made zero profit.....the point is, for anyone reading this thread who watched the program, and thought to themselves "I wouldn't mind having a go at that!", only to scroll through the negativity, and eventually convince themselves it's not worth the time or effort, just stop for a second and have a think about it. Just because 9 people out of 10 say it can't be done, and 90% of traders fail, that's still 10% who do make it.....but those 10% wouldn't have become rich had they listened to everyone else telling them it can't be done.

I honestly worry that the younger generation listen too much to people telling them what can and can't be achieved....there's nothing wrong with dreaming big, and for that I applaud the brummie lads.

[Hoofy]

piemash said:

Stuff

Well, you gotta try. Just don't risk more than you dare kiss goodbye to.

As for the kit, you don't need to have your desk look like a trading desk. Just a basic monitor and Windows PC will do you for now. It's less embarrassing if you fail.

As for pip targets, forget it. Take what the market gives. Pushing for targets when there's no more to take will just have you giving away profits.

[twinturboz]

Wish you the best of luck, either way it will be one hell of a ride.

As someone else said on this thread learn price action get familiar with all the different chart patterns.
You may find this book useful: Technical Analysis of the Financial Markets -John J Murphy. I tend to use it as my bible.

[Dr Jekyll]

piemash said:

Just because 9 people out of 10 say it can't be done, and 90% of traders fail, that's still 10% who do make it.....but those 10% wouldn't have become rich had they listened to everyone else telling them it can't be done.

Valid point.

I think the 10% was the number that don't actually lose money consistently rather than get rich. But just as you don't refuse to consider writing a book just because you won't be the next J K Rowling, trading can still be worthwhile for some even if they don't become multi millionaires. Considering the approach taken by most of the traders in the program 10% sounds pretty good odds. As a percentage of those that hit the books and study the subject it could well be getting on for 30% not actually losing money, and of those that have the discipline to practice what they've learned possibly approaching 50%.

[R11ysf]

piemash said:

stuff

Fair points, but the honest truth is most people do lose money. That's not to say don't try but most people will lose money to start with and not have enough to see them out the other side.

I know nothing about building but I think it would be quite universally agreed that I shouldn't go out, order some concrete and bricks and build my own house. This is no different. I looked at the screens for 12-14 hours a day and it was still 2 years before I really had a clue what I was doing.

Buying a few books off the internet and getting 4 screens (!) does not make a trader. A huge amount is psychology and experience and that comes from being able to fund yourself whilst learning. This also means that if you fund yourself and don't make it you've lost a lot of time, opportunity cost and more importantly money.

No-one is saying don't do it, far from it I actually believe it is one of the best jobs in the world bar none, but what the people on here who actually know what they are talking about, are telling you is that you need to be realistic and in all probability you will lose money. Good luck to you and please report back in 12 months so you can prove us all wrong.

[walm]

Dr Jekyll said:

piemash said:

Just because 9 people out of 10 say it can't be done, and 90% of traders fail, that's still 10% who do make it.....but those 10% wouldn't have become rich had they listened to everyone else telling them it can't be done.

Valid point.

I think the 10% was the number that don't actually lose money consistently rather than get rich. But just as you don't refuse to consider writing a book just because you won't be the next J K Rowling, trading can still be worthwhile for some even if they don't become multi millionaires. Considering the approach taken by most of the traders in the program 10% sounds pretty good odds. As a percentage of those that hit the books and study the subject it could well be getting on for 30% not actually losing money, and of those that have the discipline to practice what they've learned possibly approaching 50%.

And the winner for the most made up statistic on the internet 2014 goes to... Dr Jekyll.

However, I did a little research.
Nothing much.
Just the sort of thing I might do before spending £300 on screens and a graphics card.

I googled "ig index average churn".
That brought up their 2009 annual results presentation - which is obviously old so might be out of date.
Nevertheless I found that the client retention drops off a cliff at first - >30% don't last a year.
BUT, and I quote, "retention stabilises at 20% after 5 years".

So you might have pulled the 10% "make it" out of your arse but perhaps 20% is the right figure!!
Hookers and coke for EVERYONE! Woo hoo!

Then you read on and find that the average balance is c.£500 and now I am not so sure about the definition of "making it".

£500 under management - the new killing it.

[BlackLabel]

5 new members join PH and make their first post on this thread, that must be some kind of record?

Not complaining because lots of interesting points have been made by all on this thread, it's a good read.

[twinturboz]

walm said:

£500 under management - the new killing it.

I've made it, opening a bottle of Bollinger anyone like a glass.

[Dr Jekyll]

walm said:

Dr Jekyll said:

piemash said:

Just because 9 people out of 10 say it can't be done, and 90% of traders fail, that's still 10% who do make it.....but those 10% wouldn't have become rich had they listened to everyone else telling them it can't be done.

Valid point.

I think the 10% was the number that don't actually lose money consistently rather than get rich. But just as you don't refuse to consider writing a book just because you won't be the next J K Rowling, trading can still be worthwhile for some even if they don't become multi millionaires. Considering the approach taken by most of the traders in the program 10% sounds pretty good odds. As a percentage of those that hit the books and study the subject it could well be getting on for 30% not actually losing money, and of those that have the discipline to practice what they've learned possibly approaching 50%.

And the winner for the most made up statistic on the internet 2014 goes to... Dr Jekyll.

However, I did a little research.
Nothing much.
Just the sort of thing I might do before spending £300 on screens and a graphics card.

I googled "ig index average churn".
That brought up their 2009 annual results presentation - which is obviously old so might be out of date.
Nevertheless I found that the client retention drops off a cliff at first - >30% don't last a year.
BUT, and I quote, "retention stabilises at 20% after 5 years".

So you might have pulled the 10% "make it" out of your arse but perhaps 20% is the right figure!!
Hookers and coke for EVERYONE! Woo hoo!

Then you read on and find that the average balance is c.£500 and now I am not so sure about the definition of "making it".

£500 under management - the new killing it.

I didn't make anything up, I said the figure 'could be getting on for' and 'possibly approaching'. Perfectly reasonable. I didn't pull the 10% 'make it' out of my arse, on the contrary I pointed out that the 10% reported not to lose money are probably n ot getting rich or anything like it. Who said anything about 'Hookers and Coke'? What does the average balance have to do with anything?

[Condi]

Dr Jekyll said:

What does the average balance have to do with anything?

Quite a lot? Someone with £500 isnt going to making a living from it, and isnt actually likely to be actively trading more than a few times a month. So they havent 'made it' and arnt 'making it'. They are just playing, gambling or messing around.

[Condi]

g4ry13 said:

Did we watch the same programme? There was one moderate success story in the second show. A pair of guys (one of which lives in his parent's loft with a mattress on the floor) , some housewife who blew 50% of her trading capital, some elderly people having a bit of fun and some guy struggling to break even. I definitely didn't watch that programme and get the impression that anyone could open up a trading account the next day and be making millions within a year.

No, but equally it didnt really feature people chasing losses, losing large amounts of cash in a single trade or really delve into the physcology of trading. It made it seem quite comfortable and a bit of fun.

[Dr Jekyll]

Condi said:

Dr Jekyll said:

What does the average balance have to do with anything?

Quite a lot? Someone with £500 isnt going to making a living from it, and isnt actually likely to be actively trading more than a few times a month. So they havent 'made it' and arnt 'making it'. They are just playing, gambling or messing around.

Except that I never claimed the average person trading, or even the relatively successful 10%, was making a living from it. So it's a hobby, so what?

[Pesty]

First day of buying shares on etoro . One of them has made me 0.3 and another 0.2 profit

Although I'm not sure what it is ive bought yet.

[Hoofy]

Pesty said:

First day of buying shares on etoro . One of them has made me 0.3 and another 0.2 profit

Although I'm not sure what it is ive bought yet.

0.3 whats?

[piemash]

K

Hoofy said:

Well, you gotta try. Just don't risk more than you dare kiss goodbye to.

As for the kit, you don't need to have your desk look like a trading desk. Just a basic monitor and Windows PC will do you for now. It's less embarrassing if you fail.

As for pip targets, forget it. Take what the market gives. Pushing for targets when there's no more to take will just have you giving away profits.

Fair point about the 4 screens, but I just find it easier to take a look at a currency pair in 2-3 different time periods all laid out in front of me on different screens, rather than zooming in and out of a chart on a single screen. If I'm going to place a trade I want to be convinced that the period I'm targeting (in my case 30 minute charts) also fits the 5 minute time period and the 1 hour time period... Basically if everything lines up across multiple time periods I'm more likely to trade.... For this reason I won't ever try teading on a phone or iPad, but fair enough for people who do.

Pip targets will be more a case of something to aim for rather than saying I must reach that amount. My target to start with will be 100 pips per week, but no worries at all if I only hit 50 or even 20 to start with... The most important thing to me is the ratio of succesfull trades vs unsuccessful trades.

Quite fortunate to have a day job so will start by trading a couple of hours in the evening, focussing on the USD against other majors and minors.... I agree with what someone said about not being able to do it with money you can't afford to lose, it would be too much pressure, and would prevent you maintaining your discipline.

I certainly don't expect to master this in a few weeks! It's like anything, you need to put the time in and I'll be keeping a little journal on daily trades which will help me track what I'm doing right and what doing wrong.

If anyone else is interested in forex trading for the first time, , do a Google search for the free "pipsology" lessons on baby pips website.... I found it really useful

[Hoofy]

"Fair point about the 4 screens, but I just find it easier to take a look at a currency pair in 2-3 different time periods all laid out in front of me on different screens, rather than zooming in and out of a chart on a single screen. If I'm going to place a trade I want to be convinced that the period I'm targeting (in my case 30 minute charts) also fits the 5 minute time period and the 1 hour time period... Basically if everything lines up across multiple time periods I'm more likely to trade.... For this reason I won't ever try teading on a phone or iPad, but fair enough for people who do."

You don't need 4 screens but it's all academic as you've already bought the kit. I wouldn't be looking at more than one currency pair if you're just starting out. Pick something that's cheap to trade, has a small spread. Many pick EURUSD.

"Pip targets will be more a case of something to aim for rather than saying I must reach that amount. My target to start with will be 100 pips per week, but no worries at all if I only hit 50 or even 20 to start with... The most important thing to me is the ratio of succesfull trades vs unsuccessful trades."

All bks really. You take what's there whether it's 5 pips or 200 pips. And your R/R would be related to your win/loss rate - think about it. Oh, and whether you take 5 or 200 is down to your trading method.

You often hear that trading is a business which is fine so don't treat it like a fun time at the casino but it's very unlike most businesses especially on the retail side of things. Targets are great for motivation if you're putting cupcakes into boxes. Not so true for trading.

Edited by Hoofy on Monday 29th September 22:09

[Pesty]

Hoofy said:

0.3 whats?

%

I seem to have made 19cents profit but can't work out how.

Was at 56cents but took a nose dive lol

Info is lacking I was hoping to see what was buying and selling and when as a learning tool. So far other than past performance it here is nothing to go on. I still don't even know what I bought at what price.

I'm sure it's there somewhere

Clever chaps in here I was wondering today when I heard about hk protests how would that effect the currency.