Traders: Millions by the minute. BBC i Player

[dom9]

andrewh said:

Amplify trading? Might it be a decent course? seems like they run the course alongside trading themselves, so the course fees probably cover a lot of the overheads of the offices/systems, £1600 a month for three months with a min commitment of 1 month, anyone been on one of these courses?

Yeah, Amplify. I can certainly confirm to anyone interested that it isn't a scam and they really are trading and training. Their model seems a bit different and the 'training' is almost like an extended job interview. If you do well, you stay and trade. The benefit to them appears to be that you have to pay for your own training, which is nice.

My 3 best mates are all traders in the City and would never consider going on a course such as this but, of course, it's much harder to break into the city now (you need a 1st from Oxbridge/ Imperial etc, PhD etc) and if you really, really want to be a trader - it must be worthwhile to go on a course and learn from professionals, early on.

Better than being a housewife and gambling at home with zero training!

[335d]

dom9 said:

My 3 best mates are all traders in the City and would never consider going on a course such as this but, of course, it's much harder to break into the city now (you need a 1st from Oxbridge/ Imperial etc, PhD etc) and if you really, really want to be a trader - it must be worthwhile to go on a course and learn from professionals, early on.

Better than being a housewife and gambling at home with zero training!

I agree with this. I also think people need to be aware that the sort of course Amplify runs won't be of much help in getting into the City, but may help with picking up some market discipline. Large banks don't do much FX trading on the basis of pure charting, but rely on flows of customer trades to guide them. It is very hard to trade FX without seeing these flows.

A first from a top 5 uni is certainly helpful in getting in to the top tier banks, but there are enough banks who trade that a slightly lower qualification and some personal ambition may still get you a place. Once you are working in the City, qualifications quickly become irrelevant, and performance takes over.

I tend to think most of the 'learn to be a trader' courses are little more than a revenue-generating scam for the tutors, but from what we saw of Amplify, they look to be a bit more genuine. That said, if their trading technique was very successful, they wouldn't waste their time running courses.

[dom9]

335d said:

I agree with this. I also think people need to be aware that the sort of course Amplify runs won't be of much help in getting into the City, but may help with picking up some market discipline. Large banks don't do much FX trading on the basis of pure charting, but rely on flows of customer trades to guide them. It is very hard to trade FX without seeing these flows.

A first from a top 5 uni is certainly helpful in getting in to the top tier banks, but there are enough banks who trade that a slightly lower qualification and some personal ambition may still get you a place. Once you are working in the City, qualifications quickly become irrelevant, and performance takes over.

I tend to think most of the 'learn to be a trader' courses are little more than a revenue-generating scam for the tutors, but from what we saw of Amplify, they look to be a bit more genuine. That said, if their trading technique was very successful, they wouldn't waste their time running courses.

Yeah - The City is like any job; once you're in qualifications become largely irrelevent. It was definitely easier to break in 10-15 years ago though! As a graduate of a "Top 5" uni, I saw most of my mates go into the City and almost all have been very successful, kept their jobs and made stunning bonuses but I'd actually say the level of 'intelligence' and 'common sense' actually varies a lot between them.

They definitely 'learned their trade' and didn't necessarily develop a 'feel' for some time after starting. If you were on for a 1st from Imperial you were virtually guaranteed a job interview with a top tier bank around 2000, which is half the battle. I can't imagine a 2:2 in History from Chippenham Polytechnic would get you anywhere close, without a man on the inside, these days, regardless of your drive and ambition. There are just too many good graduates out there looking to get in.

My bond trading buddy at Credit Suisse sent me a message the other day for a graduate-type trading position where the minimum qualification was a PhD in maths or related subject! MINIMUM! I am not sure how you get more qualified. Anyway... That wasn't a Quant role, it was as a front office trader - crazy.

I think you have to remember that with companies like Amplify, they had to get their money from somewhere and they don't have a line of credit like a bank. When these guys started, they likely didn't have access to millions and millions to trade and the economy has been 'difficult' over the last few years so other revenue generating streams were probably a good idea. They must have done something right as they seem to have media presence and they're still going.

Other than a quick Linkedin a year or so ago, I haven't spoken to my mate there in a while so can't vouch for their turnover etc but they're certainly not duping people into spending money on learning to trade and then disappearing into the night. They're clearly a far more established business than say Jusco and now have a reputation to protect.

[Hoofy]

Thing is, even if the traders are profitable, Amplify make money whether you, as a trainee, succeed or fail because you're paying for the course. Remember: if you're paying for a job, you're not an employee - you're a customer.

[Spartacus22]

What about ezeetrader.com , the website/seminars/trading systems run by the 911 guy
Are they legit? do their promises stand up to reality?

[Hoofy]

Well, without checking any course in detail, you can guarantee that they will cover the following:
-technical analysis
-fundamental analysis
-psychology
-money management

Ultimately, though, the individual will have to put it into practice. Even at Amplify (I say "even" because at least we know that there are traders making money there according to what we've seen) people who've gone through the course drop out and don't trade.

[R11ysf]

335d said:

Just rewatched the Justyn and Akil bits. They were extremely careful to blur anything which could identify them. Their 'company' is called Jusco Capital according to their headed paper. They didn't show an address or company number.

However a Companies House check confirms that Jusco Investments Ltd was incorporated on 13/10/11 with a registered address of

8 GRESLEY GROVE,
ERDINGTON,
BIRMINGHAM,
WEST MIDLANDS,
B23 7PS

One director: Justyn James Allen

Now dissolved.

Three new companies have recently sprung up with the same director: Jusco Financial Ltd, Crenshaw Trading Ltd and The Hundred Financial Ltd

None have filed any accounts (according to companycheck) or are FCA registered according to the FCA site.

Doesn't look too promising.

Looks like they just close that down and re-opened a load of new companies, I guess for their FCA memberships http://companycheck.co.uk/director/916375054

They did seem a bit lairy and OTT but if they have been running the model and trading it live and successfully then it is possible to make decent returns. He obviously emphasied his biggest winning returns and not the losers, but he also said his losers are capped at 3%. Obviously that isn't guaranteed but he may have found something that works. He's not going to be getting any of my money but I wouldn't write him off totally. It does have a whif of ponzi scheme, but the FCA should have been combing through the accounts - you'd hope.

[R11ysf]

dom9 said:

My 3 best mates are all traders in the City and would never consider going on a course such as this but, of course, it's much harder to break into the city now (you need a 1st from Oxbridge/ Imperial etc, PhD etc) and if you really, really want to be a trader - it must be worthwhile to go on a course and learn from professionals, early on.

Not quite. Maybe if you want to go straight on to an exotics desk for a top tier investment bank (for those that haven't closed them) but not all trading jobs are in banks and most of bank jobs are not traders.

If you want to trade a decent degree from a decent uni is all you need to get a foot in the door and from then on it comes down to aptitude. Goldmans will want Oxbridge but other investment banks will be happy with red brick. Outside of the investment banks it matters less.

Also, the majority of bank guys aren't really trading. They are taking on customer positions which are already onside and then just managing an onside position. I know several guys who have traded on different years for bank desks with less than 5 down days per year. That's not trading, that's being the house at a casino when your bank customers are the punters. http://www.standard.co.uk/business/goldman-sachs-i... isn't due to genius trading, it's due to house edge.

The companies like Amplify are more actual trading houses, though why you would pay for their course when other places will give you the same training for free bemuses me.

[RIDA76]

R11ysf said:

335d said:

Just rewatched the Justyn and Akil bits. They were extremely careful to blur anything which could identify them. Their 'company' is called Jusco Capital according to their headed paper. They didn't show an address or company number.

However a Companies House check confirms that Jusco Investments Ltd was incorporated on 13/10/11 with a registered address of

8 GRESLEY GROVE,
ERDINGTON,
BIRMINGHAM,
WEST MIDLANDS,
B23 7PS

One director: Justyn James Allen

Now dissolved.

Three new companies have recently sprung up with the same director: Jusco Financial Ltd, Crenshaw Trading Ltd and The Hundred Financial Ltd

None have filed any accounts (according to companycheck) or are FCA registered according to the FCA site.

Doesn't look too promising.

Looks like they just close that down and re-opened a load of new companies, I guess for their FCA memberships http://companycheck.co.uk/director/916375054

They did seem a bit lairy and OTT but if they have been running the model and trading it live and successfully then it is possible to make decent returns. He obviously emphasied his biggest winning returns and not the losers, but he also said his losers are capped at 3%. Obviously that isn't guaranteed but he may have found something that works. He's not going to be getting any of my money but I wouldn't write him off totally. It does have a whif of ponzi scheme, but the FCA should have been combing through the accounts - you'd hope.

I can't see that they or he will be FCA regulated, and true losses certainly weren't capped at 3% that was clear on the slides auntie beeb showed. This is either a Ponzi or a you get 10% of your own money back per months for 3 or 4 months and then the disappear ... either way its a well proven scam, the issue is that if they are successful enough to be unsuccessful then they wont hit FCA radar, FCA and SFO have a huge backlog and they have to make an internal business case to go after these scams.

[twinturboz]

Hoofy said:

Well, without checking any course in detail, you can guarantee that they will cover the following:
-technical analysis
-fundamental analysis
-psychology
-money management

Ultimately, though, the individual will have to put it into practice. Even at Amplify (I say "even" because at least we know that there are traders making money there according to what we've seen) people who've gone through the course drop out and don't trade.

Think it was mentioned on the program anyone can learn the mechanics of trading. You don't need to pay thousands for the pleasure at least thats the way I see it. All of the above can be learned by picking up some decent trading books.

Once you've got the basics everything else if you ask me is simply screen time there just isn't a substitute for it. That feel you get for the market, learning how to control your emotions all of it comes from just trading hour after hour.

[Hoofy]

twinturboz said:

Hoofy said:

Well, without checking any course in detail, you can guarantee that they will cover the following:
-technical analysis
-fundamental analysis
-psychology
-money management

Ultimately, though, the individual will have to put it into practice. Even at Amplify (I say "even" because at least we know that there are traders making money there according to what we've seen) people who've gone through the course drop out and don't trade.

Think it was mentioned on the program anyone can learn the mechanics of trading. You don't need to pay thousands for the pleasure at least thats the way I see it. All of the above can be learned by picking up some decent trading books.

Once you've got the basics everything else if you ask me is simply screen time there just isn't a substitute for it. That feel you get for the market, learning how to control your emotions all of it comes from just trading hour after hour.

Yep. Agree. Was going to post that actually.

[R11ysf]

Hoofy said:

Yep. Agree. Was going to post that actually.

Sorry I have to disagree. Without going in to too much detail I run a group similar to Amplify (though bigger and better ) and as much as screen time is hugely important to develop skills the fail rate is still 65-70% in the 11 years I've been doing this. And trust me, 65% is still far better than many firms who operate in the city. Some used to take on 40 grads and at the end of 3 months have 10 and then end of 6 months keep the best 3-5.

The skillset to be a trader is very hard to define and some of the highest qualified people I have met have been crap traders. Likewise, I know many extremely rich people who have no idea what the underlying product they are trading is, but they just have feel.

I've seen a guy who was one of the best 30 students in Portugal, who was given 50k Euro to do a masters in the UK, sit down at a trading machine and his hand shook like a leaf when he did his first live trade. I knew he wouldn't make it and he's now making a lot of money structuring deals at an investment bank.

The skill set for trading is so diverse and if you are poor in any area you are going to fail. If you are smart, good degree etc etc then the type of trading on this program is a waste. Go join an investment bank and be on the market making rather than price taking side and the money will be more consistent and in 95% of cases much higher.

An old boss said this to me once and I now know it to be true;
"There are plenty of traders in the city on the money of a window cleaner just to say they they are a trader".

[Hoofy]

Think you misunderstand us. We're not saying that screen time guarantees success.

[twinturboz]

R11ysf said:

Sorry I have to disagree. Without going in to too much detail I run a group similar to Amplify (though bigger and better ) and as much as screen time is hugely important to develop skills the fail rate is still 65-70% in the 11 years I've been doing this. And trust me, 65% is still far better than many firms who operate in the city. Some used to take on 40 grads and at the end of 3 months have 10 and then end of 6 months keep the best 3-5.

The skillset to be a trader is very hard to define and some of the highest qualified people I have met have been crap traders. Likewise, I know many extremely rich people who have no idea what the underlying product they are trading is, but they just have feel.

I've seen a guy who was one of the best 30 students in Portugal, who was given 50k Euro to do a masters in the UK, sit down at a trading machine and his hand shook like a leaf when he did his first live trade. I knew he wouldn't make it and he's now making a lot of money structuring deals at an investment bank.

The skill set for trading is so diverse and if you are poor in any area you are going to fail. If you are smart, good degree etc etc then the type of trading on this program is a waste. Go join an investment bank and be on the market making rather than price taking side and the money will be more consistent and in 95% of cases much higher.

An old boss said this to me once and I now know it to be true;
"There are plenty of traders in the city on the money of a window cleaner just to say they they are a trader".

Not wishing to start a fight, but what's your argument? If what your saying above is true then aren't you more or less just saying that trading can't be taught and either your good at it or not. Take for example the guy who you said was shaking like a leaf how would enrolling on a course help him? I guess in short what I'm getting at is doing these courses is not necessarily going to help you to trade any more than reading a few books will.

[335d]

R11ysf said:

They did seem a bit lairy and OTT but if they have been running the model and trading it live and successfully then it is possible to make decent returns. He obviously emphasied his biggest winning returns and not the losers, but he also said his losers are capped at 3%. Obviously that isn't guaranteed but he may have found something that works. He's not going to be getting any of my money but I wouldn't write him off totally. It does have a whif of ponzi scheme, but the FCA should have been combing through the accounts - you'd hope.

While I thought they were quite a likeable pair, I would put their chances of success as virtually zero. The fact that after 4 years of trading, they still operate from his bedroom in mum and dad's house says quite a lot. Charitably, you might say that they are just being prudent in not wanting to impose expenses on a fledgling business. Unfortunately that idea is blown out of the water by the choice of car and references to being a trillionaire and #TraderLifestyle.

Successfully trading in a vacuum is very tough for the brightest person, but for someone uneducated, who has an apparent obsession with image and a loose grasp on reality, it isn't going to end well.

Their sales model seems to involve finding investors with money but an even weaker grasp of reality. I wonder how many footballers will sign up.

[R11ysf]

Hoofy said:

Think you misunderstand us. We're not saying that screen time guarantees success.

Sorry that wasn't how I read it came across, I thought "all of it comes from just trading hour after hour." whereas I've found that it doesn't to most people.

If not, I apologise, we are saying the same thing.

[R11ysf]

twinturboz said:

Not wishing to start a fight, but what's your argument? If what your saying above is true then aren't you more or less just saying that trading can't be taught and either your good at it or not. Take for example the guy who you said was shaking like a leaf how would enrolling on a course help him? I guess in short what I'm getting at is doing these courses is not necessarily going to help you to trade any more than reading a few books will.

Sorry yes I agree. The "technical aspect" is something that can be taught, as any grad of the STA course will tell you. The deciding when to trade, when to get out and crucially when not to trade is all "feel". After that then comes the confidence to scale up and down with conditions.

I would say it is 25% technical, 40% psychological and 35% experience. There are many people who are exceptions to this though.

[Hoofy]

Right. Group hug.

[twinturboz]

Haha I think we were all on the same page.

[g4ry13]

I thought the series was a waste of time, I really regretted spending 2 hours on it. Admittedly I sort of fell asleep during first one at points.

The second was no improvement. The 911 guy was allegedly some pro trader before from what i've read in other places. I know someone said he does training courses and I did find it really weird when he said "i've made my grand for the day, time to finish" - it just doesn't work like that and sounds like the sort of thing they sell courses on.

Brummie lads, yeah...you live at home and sleep on a mattress on a floor giving it the big one as you drive up and down the country in a Mercedes C63 and posing with BMW M3s? Something isn't adding up there. I would have liked to have seen some actual proper success stories, but from what i've gathered in my encounters - those making money generally like to shut up about it and keep quiet. Not go on national TV and blab about it.